klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,742
|
Post by klinemj on Dec 8, 2016 15:51:05 GMT -5
So, this went from "Anyone have thoughts on the above amp? audiobill Any thoughts?" to a review that starts on Page 2... Mark
|
|
|
Post by kauai82 on Dec 8, 2016 18:04:14 GMT -5
I own the Prima Luna Prologue One their first integrated amp. I love mine got it used about eight months ago. Mine has the EL 34 power tubes and puts out 35 watts a channel which is plenty for my DIY Core 2 inefficient speakers that it drives. Silky highs and mids and very decent bass. Built like a tank. One of my best audio purchases I have ever made. I heard the Premium Prologue Amp at Upscale Audio in So. Cal. at a audiophile meeting. Very nice. It was set up with the Sonus Faber speakers and man did it sound good. Some of the best SQ I have ever heard. The owner of Upscale Audio switched out the Prima Luna with another tube amp that cost three times more (sorry don't remember the name of the amp) and it did not sound any where as good. I am a big fan of Prima Luna. Hope this helps ---Matt
|
|
jlafrenz
Global Moderator
I don't want to jump in, unless this music's thumping
Posts: 7,722
|
Post by jlafrenz on Dec 8, 2016 19:54:13 GMT -5
I haven't heard the Prima Luna name in quite a while, but they were always well reviewed from what I remember.
|
|
|
Post by brubacca on Dec 8, 2016 20:11:46 GMT -5
I heard the Prime Luna Premium Integrated a couple of years ago. It had the el34 tubes. It had the most amazing magical midrange I have ever heard. I felt that it was lacking in the bass department, but that would be consistent with the reputation of the el34 tubes. I never heard with the KT120 tubes, but that should fix the lack of bass issue a solid piece well worth owning.
|
|
|
Post by bitsandbytes on Dec 8, 2016 23:22:35 GMT -5
Have heard these amps at a Sound & Vision dealer about 2 1/2 years ago when I purchased my B&W 804 diamond speakers. They were connected to these speakers. The sound was about even in quality to what I heard in Big Dan's office at Emofest 2013. The XPA-1L's had the advantage in bass - and the Prima Luna amp in imaging.
Not recall what tubes these amps were using. They had auto biasing - and had a cage over them protecting the tubes.
This amp is impressive, but am glad I went with the breathtaking Bob Latino m125 tube amps instead.
Walt
|
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,742
|
Post by klinemj on Dec 9, 2016 6:53:57 GMT -5
bitsandbytes Thanks Walt - what do you like better about the M125's? FYI, I worked a deal to bring this one home to try with my system, and if I don't like it I can return it to the dealer. It's a 2012 model that's been their demo and it has very low hours. They just put new tubes in it - EL34's I believe. It can take up to KT150's. I like that it is an integrated but has ability to be using as a standalone amp. To fit it into my system, that's easiest as I can wire it just as I have done my Hypex and use the XMC's reference stereo option but having it wired as I do - I can feather in the sub as I currently do. I'll try it as integrated as well as wired up the way I do my XMC/Hypex to compare. Nice to have the option! I'm likely going to bring it home in the next few days and give it a try. I'm just waiting for them to get back with me on 2 details. First - warranty. And second, the remote "walked away" at some point. He said they can likely get me one and if it's the cost he thinks they would include it in the cost they are asking. (If not, I will counter off a lower price.) Mark
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on Dec 9, 2016 9:52:48 GMT -5
bitsandbytes Thanks Walt - what do you like better about the M125's? FYI, I worked a deal to bring this one home to try with my system, and if I don't like it I can return it to the dealer. It's a 2012 model that's been their demo and it has very low hours. They just put new tubes in it - EL34's I believe. It can take up to KT150's. I like that it is an integrated but has ability to be using as a standalone amp. To fit it into my system, that's easiest as I can wire it just as I have done my Hypex and use the XMC's reference stereo option but having it wired as I do - I can feather in the sub as I currently do. I'll try it as integrated as well as wired up the way I do my XMC/Hypex to compare. Nice to have the option! I'm likely going to bring it home in the next few days and give it a try. I'm just waiting for them to get back with me on 2 details. First - warranty. And second, the remote "walked away" at some point. He said they can likely get me one and if it's the cost he thinks they would include it in the cost they are asking. (If not, I will counter off a lower price.) Mark Well if you end up not liking it, they will tell you that the new tubes haven't broken in yet.
|
|
|
Post by bitsandbytes on Dec 9, 2016 10:51:22 GMT -5
Congrats - think you will enjoy auditioning this unit. It is in my opinion excellent quality. When I listened to the Prima Luna at the store, I remember thinking as I was leaving the store with my new speakers that if I had only a two channel setup - and did not own any preamp/amplification - that I might go in the Prima Luna direction.
One big difference between the m125 and Prima Luna amps was in the quality, fullness and depth of the bass. I do not use a subwoofer with the m125's as I feel it is not needed. I do use a sub when using either of my other solid state amps, the XPA-1 gen 1 or my Lexicon RX-7.
The black background, realism, definition, and fullness across the audio spectrum of the m125, and its performance at lower volumes, is superb. Never heard the Prima Luna amp in my own listening environment so a detailed comparison would be inaccurate. Plus at the audio store, was honestly paying more attention to the speakers rather than to that excellent amp. When I first heard the m125's in a friend's house, I knew right away I had to have them, no matter how difficult to incorporate them into my combined movie/music setup. They exuded that much quality.
Are you going to use Dirac to integrate the Prima Luna with your monster sub? Am very interested in hearing how well your Prima Luna plays with your XMC-1.
Hopefully they will give you a one year warranty on this amp.
Enjoy,
Walt
|
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,742
|
Post by klinemj on Dec 9, 2016 12:54:15 GMT -5
One big difference between the m125 and Prima Luna amps was in the quality, fullness and depth of the bass. I do not use a subwoofer with the m125's as I feel it is not needed. I do use a sub when using either of my other solid state amps, the XPA-1 gen 1 or my Lexicon RX-7 Good to know...based on something someone else mentioned, I thought that might be the case. Plus at the audio store, was honestly paying more attention to the speakers rather than to that excellent amp. That is really funny - that's exactly what happened to me. At the dealer, the PL was set up with some GoldenEar speakers (not sure which ones), but I had auditioned some GoldenEars when I got my Maggies and really didn't like them. So, as I listened - all I could think about was "this sounds better than the GoldenEars I didn't like, but what would it sound like with the Maggies? With the GoldenEars, I heard things I liked and was impressed with the amount of "punch" the amp had. But, I know it will be very different in my setup. Are you going to use Dirac to integrate the Prima Luna with your monster sub? Am very interested in hearing how well your Prima Luna plays with your XMC-1. Hopefully they will give you a one year warranty on this amp. My base 2 channel system right now is not leveraging Dirac. Once I got the LH Labs Geek Pulse X Infinity DAC, I found I liked it best without Dirac for 2 channel/sub. So, I have just manually set up my sub with an SPL meter and used placement and the sub's controls to get to what I like. Luckily, I found a sub placement that gives me very even sound levels around the room (within 0.5 dB). If I decide to keep the PL, I'll play around with and without Dirac to see what I like best. But, my base plan is "no Dirac". FYI, not sure if you saw my thread on the topic, but I figured out a wiring for my sub that lets me have a sub in reference stereo mode with the XMC-1 by using the RCA FR/FL outputs on the XMC to a 2nd set of inputs on my sub...that set of inputs uses the sub's controls to set xover/phase/level while the other (XLR input) plays exactly what the XMC gives it. And yes...hoping for at least some warranty! If they won't give a warranty, I'll bicker more on price. Mark
|
|
|
Post by bitsandbytes on Dec 9, 2016 18:47:29 GMT -5
My base 2 channel system right now is not leveraging Dirac. Once I got the LH Labs Geek Pulse X Infinity DAC, I found I liked it best without Dirac for 2 channel/sub. So, I have just manually set up my sub with an SPL meter and used placement and the sub's controls to get to what I like. Luckily, I found a sub placement that gives me very even sound levels around the room (within 0.5 dB). If I decide to keep the PL, I'll play around with and without Dirac to see what I like best. But, my base plan is "no Dirac". FYI, not sure if you saw my thread on the topic, but I figured out a wiring for my sub that lets me have a sub in reference stereo mode with the XMC-1 by using the RCA FR/FL outputs on the XMC to a 2nd set of inputs on my sub...that set of inputs uses the sub's controls to set xover/phase/level while the other (XLR input) plays exactly what the XMC gives it. That is a great idea! Did not know we could have both balanced and unbalanced connections going into the sub at the same time (as long as just one or the other is used of course). I had my Anthem AVM-50v sub output going into the unbalanced output of my Grace Design m920, then the balanced output of the Grace going into the sub. It was Audiobill's idea I could not get it to sound better with the subs. I believe the problem may have been that while I could use the sub controls to adjust the volume and crossover frequency from my balanced output, the unbalanced output going into my tube amps was at full range, which caused bloating at the lower frequencies. Does your own main output also run at full range - and if not, what crossover do you use to roll off the lower frequencies? That is a VERY accurate bass curve to get it within half a decibel variation. When I used the SPL meter for measuring the subs, it gave much lower decibel readings than my other speakers did. Did you find this to be true also? Walt [/quote]
|
|
|
Post by audiosyndrome on Dec 9, 2016 23:13:49 GMT -5
I heard the Prime Luna Premium Integrated a couple of years ago. It had the el34 tubes. It had the most amazing magical midrange I have ever heard. I felt that it was lacking in the bass department, but that would be consistent with the reputation of the el34 tubes. I never heard with the KT120 tubes, but that should fix the lack of bass issue a solid piece well worth owning. Disclaimer; I've never heard a Prima Luna amp. They seem to be very popular and generally get very good reviews. But the output impedance of their amps in general is very high. In fact the last Prima Luna amp Stereophile reviewed had an output impedance of 4 ohms!! This equates to a damping factor of 2. So you know the bass is going to be bad because the amp in no way is able to control the woofer. Or do anything to diminish the back EMF generated by the speaker. And with that high an output impedance the frequency response looks like a roller coaster ride. Any correlation to the music from your source is purely coincidental. But a lot of people like them. Russ
|
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,742
|
Post by klinemj on Dec 9, 2016 23:46:38 GMT -5
bitsandbytesHere's a link to how I have the sub set up Dual Wired Sub. You can't do this with every sub, but you can with my Rythmik and some others. I honestly just fell into it by accident - I had no idea it was even possible. But, when I started the thread about how to do it, someone said something that got me looking at my sub's manual and I found a feature I didn't even know it had when I bought it. I do run the fronts full range - I let the Maggies go as low as they can then feather in the sub to boost the bottom. When I said within 0.5 dB - I wasn't meaning across their frequency range. I was meaning via the sub crawl method...going around the room. But still, I was quite pleased to not have loud/boomy areas and quiet areas. It's all even. And, I am able to get the dB levels up to where they match nicely with the fronts via the sub's controls. Mark
|
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,742
|
Post by klinemj on Dec 9, 2016 23:56:26 GMT -5
But the output impedance of their amps in general is very high. In fact the last Prima Luna amp Stereophile reviewed had an output impedance of 4 ohms!! Thanks for the watchout. Do you know which Prima Luna that was? The Stereophile review of the PL Premium ProLogue Integrated Amp I am looking at say 1.7 for the 4 ohm outputs and 2 for the 8 ohm outputs. So - fairly high vs. some amps but not 4. I'll give them a listen and see what I think. Mark
|
|
|
Post by vcautokid on Dec 10, 2016 8:27:53 GMT -5
Output is 4 or 8 ohms from the output transformer. Nothing unusual there at all. Since they use 3 transformers. 2 power supply ones, and one output transformer. It is NOT OTL. Also the automatic adaptive bias helps the tubes last a longer time too. I ran some Tungsol 6550c output tubes on my Prologue Two, which I had. Quality of build and finish is excellent. Allot of higher priced,tube amplifiers may not be built any better. Maybe better parts if that. With the right speakers, the Prima Luna will please no end. Easy on the ears without the indecisiveness ones I have heard. Nice highs, easy and detailed and rich midrange, great for vocals, and pretty nice bottom end too. Self noise or hiss or hum, was non existent.
If I wanted to do tubes again, the Prima Luna would figure high on my list. If you do Tubes, you can over pay, and do worse than the Prima Luna.
|
|
|
Post by audiobill on Dec 10, 2016 10:03:39 GMT -5
At $2400, this PL is double the price of an assembled Latino ST70, which is comparable in power.
And the Latino is all American, not made in China.
|
|
|
Post by vcautokid on Dec 10, 2016 10:14:56 GMT -5
Unfavorable exchange rates, and I think greed too, but the last one is my supposition, but yeah, bargains are out there. I bought mine before the whacko price increases that hit allot of Chinese gear. I still stand that the Prima Luna is solid. A bargain as it once was? Well, not so much.
|
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,742
|
Post by klinemj on Dec 10, 2016 10:39:56 GMT -5
At $2400, this PL is double the price of an assembled Latino ST70, which is comparable in power. And the Latino is all American, not made in China. The one I am looking at is much lower due to being a demo model. And, the autobias is a nice feature, as is the protective cage. I will see what it sounds like. Mark
|
|
novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,223
|
Post by novisnick on Dec 10, 2016 10:49:08 GMT -5
At $2400, this PL is double the price of an assembled Latino ST70, which is comparable in power. And the Latino is all American, not made in China. The one I am looking at is much lower due to being a demo model. And, the autobias is a nice feature, as is the protective cage. I will see what it sounds like. Mark Here ya go! Just kidding!
|
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,742
|
Post by klinemj on Dec 10, 2016 14:44:55 GMT -5
|
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,742
|
Post by klinemj on Dec 10, 2016 14:51:22 GMT -5
Using garbulky method to warm them up... Mark
|
|