XPA-1, XPA Gen3, Dual-Wide for 802D's

[zealott]

Hi everyone,

Needs some advise, I'm sure some of you have some thoughts on this ;-)
I have some B&W 802D's running now with Lyngdorf TDAI-2200RP.
I'm in the mood for the XMC-1 and was also wondering about new amps for my lovely front speakers.
Should I go with the XPA-1 (Gen 2)'s, XPA Gen 3 (2ch), or wait for the XPA Gen 3 Dual-Wides?

Any pros/cons (performance, price, "will-i-hear-any-difference").

Thanks,
John

[Gary Cook]

Monoblocks for the win, that's a given, so I would personally eliminate the 2 channel amp from the decision making process. What I am then left with is a lot of "who knows"? Until there are some of the Gen 3 monoblocks out here in the real world it's all just guessing. Personally, for the power supply alone, I'd go with the well proven product of the XPA-1 Gen 2. No short term or long term question marks there. I also would base the decision on the 60 watts of Class A, you certainly have the speakers to take advantage of that.

Cheers
Gary

[garbulky]

Love my XPA-1 gen 2!! Out of all the amps I've heard, I would still pick it. If you like overkill and $ are not that important, quad bi amp that sucker for 120 watts of class A power per speaker!!! That's what Big Dan reccomends!

[boomzilla]

Hi Zealott -

The answer to your question depends on a myriad of factors (including, most significantly) whom you ask!

I've heard the Gen. 2 XPA-1s sound heavenly (in garbulky's system) and just so-so (in mine). I've not yet heard a Gen. 3 Emotiva XPA amplifier.

One major difference between the Gen. 2 and Gen. 3 XPA amps is the power supply. The "old" XPA-1s used a conventional and time-tested BIG transformer with LOTS of capacitors to make available TONS of current to the output transistors. The Gen. 3 amps use a "switching" power supply (common, previously, to computers and to "pro" power amps) where a much smaller transformer and far less capacitance are required. But the results, theoretically, are absolutely identical - high-current, ripple-free DC voltage to the amplifier, and without voltage sags as demand increases.

So in theory, Gen. 1 / Gen. 2 / Gen. 3 Emotiva monoblocks should have NO significant differences due to power supplies.

That leaves non-power-supply differences to be considered. I know that there are differences, but don't recall enough about them to list them off the top of my head.

I plan to wait for the double-wide, fully-balanced Gen. 3 mono blocks before I try them again. I'm expecting great things. Will I be disappointed? Time will tell (but I'm guessing not...).

Boomzilla

[garbulky]

I can't disagree more.
Theoretically - and by theory you can only go by specs and measurements.
The gen 3's have no large class A power bias that's been advertised. That includes a distortion in every wave form outside class A - measurable. Granted the current state of class AB amps means that distortion is very very low. But it does exist.
At the same time the XPA-1 gen 2's have 60 watts advertised at 8 ohm. That's not easy to do. It requires large heatsinks, thermal management, durable power supplies and circuits.

The output of switching power supplies have ultrasonic noise. So theoretically there is a difference.
Now does it sound different. Well that's up to ones ears.

[zealott]

Thanks for the input, class A does sound tempting, also the holiday discounts look appealing :-)
Freight, VAT and currency rates (Norway) does make this quite expensive though, so no bi-amping unfortunately.

I am waiting for a quote from sales, so hopefully I will order something soon :-D

Cheers,
John

[qdtjni]

I ran 804 D2s with the XPA-1 G2s and now run them with 804 D3s, it's a great combo.
I'm convinced they will work great with your 802Ds as well.

[boomzilla]

Hi zealott -

You don't like the local Norwegian Hegel amps? They're supposed to be good. I've owned a Hegel integrated before, but was underwhelmed. Just curious...

Boomzilla

[boomzilla]

Jan 6, 2017 15:11:20 GMT -5 garbulky said:

I can't disagree more.
Theoretically - and by theory you can only go by specs and measurements.
The gen 3's have no large class A power bias that's been advertised. That includes a distortion in every wave form outside class A - measurable. Granted the current state of class AB amps means that distortion is very very low. But it does exist.
At the same time the XPA-1 gen 2's have 60 watts advertised at 8 ohm. That's not easy to do. It requires large heatsinks, thermal management, durable power supplies and circuits.

The output of switching power supplies have ultrasonic noise. So theoretically there is a difference.
Now does it sound different. Well that's up to ones ears.

And I'll quote what used to be a Lounger's sig: Inaudible is inaudible & you don't get any extra points for making it "more inaudible"

I understand your skepticism about switching power supplies - but I've heard amps with them sound just as good as "traditional" power supplies with heavy iron & banks of caps (and so have you) - Example?

Crown PS-400 "pro audio" amp with conventional power supply vs. Crown XLS-2000 "pro audio" amp with switching power supply. Neither was in the class of an "audiophile" amplifier, agreed, but they sounded close enough to each other that I couldn't say that the power supply differences made a hill of beans in audible differences.

I think I'll eventually have to beg, buy, or borrow a Gen. 3 XPA amp to convince you (and convince you, I will).

Boom

[leonski]

www.stereophile.com/content/bw-802d-loudspeaker-measurements#02rMVJdR4hUcqMbh.97

With the B&W 802d, the success with ANY amp will be based on the ability to drive failrly reactive loads, especially at lower frequencies.
Look at the Stereophile Measured Data and see 3 ohms for quite a range at the lower end as well as some large phase angles coupled with low impedance.

Since NOBODY EVER will make such claims or measurements, only to 'robust power supply' or whatever, you must evaluate BY EAR.

Tube amps need NOT apply, generally.

You'd have be just about be a BAT to hear the switchers noise. That is, unless you have some kind of real unlikely and unfortunate equipment interaction and 'pick up' the noise as if it were a radio broadcast.

I wouldn't worry about class 'a' power at all. The best A/B amps are in no way inferior to a high-bias A-A/B amp. At least until you get into some pretty rarified territory, maybe Pass Labs.

[Gary Cook]

I'm not particularly concerned with the sound quality utilising an SMPS as I'm sure that Lonnie and the guys have done a great job turning to the Emotiva sound signature. What does concern me is longevity, I keep power amps for a very long time, forget years, more like decades and I've not had very good experiences with SMPS's. To use boomzilla example, the warranty claims experience on the Crown XLS power amps (with SMPS) is noticeably worse than the non SMPS models according to my friendly local pro sound supplier. Both early failure (within hours of turning them on) as well as long term degradation. Personally I don't want one of my power amps dying after a few years use, especially a monoblock that may well have no serviceability and is a superseded model, what do I do with the other monoblock? Not in any way suggesting that Emotiva quality and engineering aren't streets ahead of Crown, but it's still a concern for me being half a world away.


Cheers
Gary

[stiehl11]

Jan 6, 2017 19:17:41 GMT -5 leonski said:

You'd have be just about be a BAT to hear the switchers noise.

You underestimate Garbulky's ears: he can hear flies humping on the neighbor dog's dung heap 2-doors down.

Said with tongue fully in cheek... no disrespect, Gar.

[leonski]

Gary,
You have opened the REAL can of worms with your last post.
Longevity.
Bryston has a 20 year warranty to the orignal purchaser. You PAY for that warranty in the purchase price. They also INDIVIDUALLY burn-in each amp and ship it with an individual power measurement cert.
Could I build such an amp even IF I had the schematic? Sure. Would it sound as good as the Bryston? Maybe. Would it last as long? Probably NOT. I'm not even worried about the CIRCUIT BOARD for which several different
material choices exist from cheap and nearly unfixable to robust, expensvie and durable. Something like FR-4 glass epoxy is considered a premium material. Several varieties are available.
Why?
Well, the commercial says that 'parts is parts'. That isn't true for electronics. You can cheapen ANYTHING. A tranformer should last nearly forever. PS Caps, the big ones should last 20 years + while semiconductors can have MTBF, (mean time between failure) measured in the thousands of hours. But there are ALWAYS manufacturers willing and able to build to a lesser standard. Not JUNK, but just won't last to the standard of the best available. Your cost will be substantially higher for the best available stuff and you will PAY for it. Better procedures for fabrication as well as better in-line quality checks make a difference in final cost AND longevity. However, don't get me wrong, you CAN'T inspect quality into a piece. It must be BUILT that way from the beginning. The big 3 are MAN, METHOD and MATERIALS.
A company like EMO which tries to turn an honest dollar while providing HIGH value is really walking a tight rope.  They COULD spend more on parts.   But they are in a volatile market in which FEW people keep an amp for a decade or longer.   Keeping stocks of 'spares' or custom parts eats into the bottom line and may NEVER be needed. Some commodity parts will always be available and are not mission critical to keeping 'vintage' gear working.

[assy74]

I would wait for the new g3!
The bw802 are powerhungry...... Had some myself and bryston 4bsst with 3*300w was not nearly the power they needed.
I think xpa-1 will be a good combo espesially compared to the price
Boomzilla he would ned two hegel H30 that cost 7 grand a piece..... So 14000$ the other hegel amps are not good enough!
I would love to hear xpa-1 with the 802. But get a hand on some used xpr1 would probably be awesome!!!!!!!!

[garbulky]

Jan 6, 2017 18:08:03 GMT -5 boomzilla said:

Jan 6, 2017 15:11:20 GMT -5 garbulky said:

I can't disagree more.
Theoretically - and by theory you can only go by specs and measurements.
The gen 3's have no large class A power bias that's been advertised. That includes a distortion in every wave form outside class A - measurable. Granted the current state of class AB amps means that distortion is very very low. But it does exist.
At the same time the XPA-1 gen 2's have 60 watts advertised at 8 ohm. That's not easy to do. It requires large heatsinks, thermal management, durable power supplies and circuits.

The output of switching power supplies have ultrasonic noise. So theoretically there is a difference.
Now does it sound different. Well that's up to ones ears.

And I'll quote what used to be a Lounger's sig: Inaudible is inaudible & you don't get any extra points for making it "more inaudible"

I understand your skepticism about switching power supplies - but I've heard amps with them sound just as good as "traditional" power supplies with heavy iron & banks of caps (and so have you) - Example?

Crown PS-400 "pro audio" amp with conventional power supply vs. Crown XLS-2000 "pro audio" amp with switching power supply. Neither was in the class of an "audiophile" amplifier, agreed, but they sounded close enough to each other that I couldn't say that the power supply differences made a hill of beans in audible differences.

I think I'll eventually have to beg, buy, or borrow a Gen. 3 XPA amp to convince you (and convince you, I will).

Boom

I actually thought there were audible differences between the two. The Crown XLS was not able to handle the Axioms too well while the PS-400 did better imo. Neither were perfect but the XLS did not have the guts needed, coming off as a bit on the shouty side lacking a balanced bass and mid range scoop with the Axioms.
The UPA-2 and even maybe the Mini-x that we tried did not exhibit this problem. They both used torroids.

The XLS is one reason I'm wary of switching PS.
However I really doubt that Emotiva's switching PS is in the same class. They appear to be using a more beefy 3.2 kilowatt power supply. The Hypex Ncores that are highly rated also use a switching power supply that nobody has complained about. It also has incredibly good specs and measured performance.

So I'm not saying it can't sound good. But if I had the choice, give me a nice torroid!

[leonski]

I suspect the Hypex guys went to SMPS because of EUROPEAN RULES which are increasingly requiring higher efficiency.
In years past, at the Hypex store, you could buy a capacitor board and a properly sized Torroid for the NCore amps. Add a bridge and you are in business.

Most B&O modules come with an On-Board SMPS. NCore Doesn't, so you can use whatever floats your boat. For the ICE amps which do NOT have on-board
power, they can draw power from any powered board of same or higher power. At least that's how it appears on the website.

[Gary Cook]

Jan 6, 2017 23:34:51 GMT -5 leonski said:

Gary,
You have opened the REAL can of worms with your last post.
Longevity.

That particular worm escaped the can some time ago, I raised it back when the Gen 3 power supplies were announced. It may well turn out to be be baseless and it is worth keeping in mind that, because I'm half a world away, warranty is not as comforting to me as it is to someone in the US. Also my experience leads me to believe that I can fix a linear power supply, toroidal transformers and large storage capacitors are easy swaps and readily available. In comparison I've not been as successful with servicing SMPS's.

Some people have raised the sound quality as an issue, but in all honestly I have zero concerns in that regard. I have enough confidence in Lonnie that he won't let an Emotiva power amp out there without it sounding exactly as it should. It's an Emotiva thing and they are justifiably proud and very well known for their ability to get even their lowest cost power amps to sound fantastic. The XPA is their premium selling line, so it just has to sound right, no wiggle room there.

For similar reasons I have no doubt that the SMPS in total will be designed and engineered to work as it should, but in the end the reliance is on the component suppliers. Accelerated ageing and short term life span testing should cover years of use. But I don't just keep my power amplifiers for years, I keep them for decades. They get used for many hours, every single day, in all sorts of weather conditions (it was 40 degrees celsius here early in the week), in dusty and often humid conditions. My power amps earn their money and before I invest in them I have to have total confidence.

In comparison, processors and things like DAC's are disposable, a few years use and they are out of date technically anyway. So it's OK by me if their SMSP only lasts that time. But power amplifiers, they just don't go out of date, a great sounding power amp now will still be a great sounding power amp in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years even.


Cheers
Gary

[Gary Cook]

Jan 7, 2017 14:34:26 GMT -5 leonski said:

I suspect the Hypex guys went to SMPS because of EUROPEAN RULES which are increasingly requiring higher efficiency.

That's a subject that really grates on me, I hate being forced to use supposedly "more efficient" equipment by governments, one that's not even my government, one that I can vote out if I want to. If I choose to use supposedly inefficient audio and video gear then I should be allowed to, after all it is me who pays the electricity bill. The fact is here in Australia we have more coal, gas and uranium than we will ever need to supply electricity for thousands or years. There is simply no reason for a foreign government to force citizens of another country to do anything that we don't want to do, or even need to do. This is the reason for Brexit and Trump, the sign of the times where the silent majority are saying "get the hell out of my life".

For Emotiva, ignore governments after all they change every 3 or 4 years, do what your heart tells you and your customers want you to do. Keep on making quality gear at affordable prices.


Cheers
Gary

[leonski]

Parts ain't parts.
Buying 'premium' parts and using the finer board materials, like FR-4 results in better long-term reliability.

2 executions of the SAME design can result in similar results, but vastly different reliability. Those 200$ Crown amps with SMPS? Worth what you pay for 'em. You might be able to
improve PS reliability with a cost-no-object on the SAME design with major heatsinks and a premium selection of parts. The amp would end up selling for 100 MORE, at least.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FR-4

You can do your OWN research on MTBF and cost of parts to different levels of (projected) reliability.

Agreed about how long a power amp should last. Even going BACK in time, several amps are STILL sought after and a very few, like the Stereo 70 and the Phase Linear400 have evolved a cottage industry dealing with mods and upgrades. The big PS caps should last 20+ years when used regularly. I'd LOVE to try a Threshold Stasis amp with my panels.

From our FWIW department, I had long term problems with my ASP amps from B&O. Something WRONG with the HF. Don't know WHAT, but going to a more Conventional (John Curl) design seemed to straighten that out even though power might be down 1db or so.

[vneal]

A premium speaker like the 802D( which is a Class A speaker according to Stereophile & Absolute Sound & more importantly ..me) deserves the XPA-1 mono block--mate it with the XMC-1 processor and you have a state of the art system