geebo
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"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are driving taxicabs and cutting hair"
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Post by geebo on Feb 20, 2017 12:24:59 GMT -5
Actually I can hear differences between cables in my system. If a tree falls in a forest does it make a sound if no one is present. ANSWER-yes Of course it makes a sound, let's set up a recorder with nobody left behind, tree falls, the sound will be recorded, END OF THE NONESENSE.... Until the moving air hits something to convert it to sound, there is no sound. It's just moving air. Disconnect the mic the the tape recorder and see if a sound is recorded. In the mics case, the diaphragm is just a mechanical ear drum. In a vacuum you have no air to move thus you get no sound with or without a listening device. So if a rock fall on the moon does it make a sound? |
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Post by mountain on Feb 20, 2017 12:31:46 GMT -5
"You egotistical self centered humans", said the bear.
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hemster
Global Moderator 
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,920
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Post by hemster on Feb 20, 2017 13:16:45 GMT -5
Of course it makes a sound, let's set up a recorder with nobody left behind, tree falls, the sound will be recorded, END OF THE NONESENSE.... Until the moving air hits something to convert it to sound, there is no sound. It's just moving air. Disconnect the mic the the tape recorder and see if a sound is recorded. In the mics case, the diaphragm is just a mechanical ear drum. In a vacuum you have no air to move thus you get no sound with or without a listening device. So if a rock fall on the moon does it make a sound? Only if it falls on an astronaut.  |
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Post by gus4emo on Feb 20, 2017 14:07:10 GMT -5
Of course it makes a sound, let's set up a recorder with nobody left behind, tree falls, the sound will be recorded, END OF THE NONESENSE.... But if the recorder wasn't there and the tree fell, would it make a noise? The laws of physics tells me it does. |
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Post by gus4emo on Feb 20, 2017 14:13:12 GMT -5
Until the moving air hits something to convert it to sound, there is no sound. It's just moving air. Disconnect the mic the the tape recorder and see if a sound is recorded. In the mics case, the diaphragm is just a mechanical ear drum. In a vacuum you have no air to move thus you get no sound with or without a listening device. So if a rock fall on the moon does it make a sound? Only if it falls on an astronaut. Of course sound travels through air, also through water... |
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Post by monkumonku on Feb 20, 2017 14:13:24 GMT -5
But if the recorder wasn't there and the tree fell, would it make a noise? The laws of physics tells me it does. But do the laws of physics exist if there is no one to observe? Do they apply to the aliens who are visiting us from other planets?  |
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Post by gus4emo on Feb 20, 2017 14:18:07 GMT -5
The laws of physics tells me it does. But do the laws of physics exist if there is no one to observe? Do they apply to the aliens who are visiting us from other planets? Lol............... I have reasons to believe that the universe was created so intelligent beings can wonder about it. ..... |
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Feb 20, 2017 14:24:44 GMT -5
This is NOT a discussion in philosophy... it's simply a question of SEMANTICS. The tree will obviously make significant vibrations, a lot of which will be in the "audible range of frequencies"; the only question is whether you define the terms "sound" or "noise" as requiring a human observer. The dictionaries I looked in defined "noise" in terms of "sound".... And they defined "sound" as "vibrations that travel through the air or another medium and can be heard when they reach a person's or animal's ear".... As such, since they describe the characteristics of the vibration, and that it CAN be heard if it reaches an observer, but don't specify that an observer MUST be present..... YES, when a tree falls in a forest, it makes a noise. (It's possible that other dictionaries define the terms slightly differently, and in a way that might lead to some ambiguity.) Of course, to PHILOSOPHY fans, this is really a special case of the question of whether anything "really happens" outside of the observer at all. Now, if you want to talk about speaker wires.... Perhaps the question should be phrased more like: "If someone heard a tree fall in the forest, but no tree actually fell, was there really a sound or not?" Hmmmmm.  Of course it makes a sound, let's set up a recorder with nobody left behind, tree falls, the sound will be recorded, END OF THE NONESENSE.... But if the recorder wasn't there and the tree fell, would it make a noise? |
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Post by monkumonku on Feb 20, 2017 14:28:42 GMT -5
This is NOT a discussion in philosophy... it's simply a question of SEMANTICS. The tree will obviously make significant vibrations, a lot of which will be in the "audible range of frequencies"; the only question is whether you define the terms "sound" or "noise" as requiring a human observer. The dictionaries I looked in defined "noise" in terms of "sound".... And they defined "sound" as "vibrations that travel through the air or another medium and can be heard when they reach a person's or animal's ear".... As such, since they describe the characteristics of the vibration, and that it CAN be heard if it reaches an observer, but don't specify that an observer MUST be present..... YES, when a tree falls in a forest, it makes a noise. (It's possible that other dictionaries define the terms slightly differently, and in a way that might lead to some ambiguity.) Of course, to PHILOSOPHY fans, this is really a special case of the question of whether anything "really happens" outside of the observer at all. Now, if you want to talk about speaker wires.... Perhaps the question should be phrased more like: "If someone heard a tree fall in the forest, but no tree actually fell, was there really a sound or not?" Hmmmmm. Well now that REALLY hits the nail on the head about this thread topic!  |
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geebo
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"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are driving taxicabs and cutting hair"
Posts: 24,181
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Post by geebo on Feb 20, 2017 15:29:14 GMT -5
"vibrations that travel through the air or another medium and can be heard when they reach a person's or animal's ear".... But how do we know the vibrations could be heard when they reach person's ear if there is no one to verify it? What if it was a very high frequency (15kHz) and the only person around could only hear out to 5kHz? So does the moon exist if no one is looking at it? Einstein once asked his young friend Abraham Pais if
the Moon existed only when someone was looking at it.
Does the Moon, indeed, exist only when I observe
it? If we assume that the Moon obeys quantum theory
and the unique property of consciousness, as strange and
counter-intuitive as it may seem, the Moon may not exist
in separate from my own existence.
arxiv.org/pdf/1008.2892.pdf |
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Post by sahmen on Feb 20, 2017 16:32:20 GMT -5
Now, if you want to talk about speaker wires.... Perhaps the question should be phrased more like: "If someone heard a tree fall in the forest, but no tree actually fell, was there really a sound or not?" Hmmmmm. Well, the problem with asking the question this way is not just that it comes out sounding already biased and pre-skewed (not to mention rigged) in an epic way, but it also seems obviously set up to make a fool of anyone who answers in the affirmative... It is like using two coat hanger wires in a double blind test in order to trick an unsuspecting tester into admitting they can hear an inexistent difference, so that they may expose themselves to ridicule... However, is it really a fair test if any possible occurrence of difference has been deliberately eliminated in advance, prior to the testing? Or is it merely a sleight of hand? |
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Post by USNRet on Feb 20, 2017 23:03:00 GMT -5
"I can hear a difference in speaker cables"
No you don't.
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novisnick
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CEO Secret Monoblock Society
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Post by novisnick on Feb 20, 2017 23:10:38 GMT -5
"I can hear a difference in speaker cables" No you don't. Yes, we have! |
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Post by USNRet on Feb 20, 2017 23:18:20 GMT -5
"I can hear a difference in speaker cables" No you don't. Yes, we have! In my observations and it is my personal opinion that if you heard a difference you had a speaker "wire" that was defective or too small of a gauge for the distance. I was elected to listen to several name brand speaker wires about 6 years ago. There was zero difference to MY ears. |
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Feb 20, 2017 23:40:50 GMT -5
In my observations and it is my personal opinion that if you heard a difference you had a speaker "wire" that was defective or too small of a gauge for the distance. I was elected to listen to several name brand speaker wires about 6 years ago. There was zero difference to MY ears. I get it and respect your thoughts. Ive had similar thoughts in the past, BUT all else aside I/we have heard differences in certain cables and then not in others. You know what your system sounds like with your favorite music, fact not a question! We all do after hearing our systems for endless hours, now have two people change just one thing ,,,,,the cables and write uncompared notes about said cables, the exact cables, not similar cables. Listen without bias or a hint of what another thinks of said cables. The outcome blew us away. Almost word for word in our descriptions of the cables sounds and tendencies. Same flavor sound and tone , especially with particular types of music. But it really didnt matter the music played, our conclusions were the same. Im not going to argue with that. Nor will I argue with anybody that says otherwise, I just know and hear what I know and hear.  |
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Post by USNRet on Feb 21, 2017 9:53:02 GMT -5
In my observations and it is my personal opinion that if you heard a difference you had a speaker "wire" that was defective or too small of a gauge for the distance. I was elected to listen to several name brand speaker wires about 6 years ago. There was zero difference to MY ears. I get it and respect your thoughts. Ive had similar thoughts in the past, BUT all else aside I/we have heard differences in certain cables and then not in others. You know what your system sounds like with your favorite music, fact not a question! We all do after hearing our systems for endless hours, now have two people change just one thing ,,,,,the cables and write uncompared notes about said cables, the exact cables, not similar cables. Listen without bias or a hint of what another thinks of said cables. The outcome blew us away. Almost word for word in our descriptions of the cables sounds and tendencies. Same flavor sound and tone , especially with particular types of music. But it really didnt matter the music played, our conclusions were the same. Im not going to argue with that. Nor will I argue with anybody that says otherwise, I just know and hear what I know and hear. Attachments:
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Post by 405x5 on Feb 21, 2017 11:15:12 GMT -5
Zip cord of the proper gauge for the given length is all that's ever needed.
I had such a wonderful relationship with Roy Allison, who designed and built the flagships (pictured in my Avatar).
In polite fashion, and as a most highly respected electrical engineer and designer, of the pulsating dome tweeters and midrange drivers used in those systems, never did he even participate in these debates about wires used to tweak, or have any sonic impact one way or another...he just smiled.
Bill
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Post by gzubeck on Mar 24, 2017 2:04:28 GMT -5
In my observations and it is my personal opinion that if you heard a difference you had a speaker "wire" that was defective or too small of a gauge for the distance. I was elected to listen to several name brand speaker wires about 6 years ago. There was zero difference to MY ears. I get it and respect your thoughts. Ive had similar thoughts in the past, BUT all else aside I/we have heard differences in certain cables and then not in others. You know what your system sounds like with your favorite music, fact not a question! We all do after hearing our systems for endless hours, now have two people change just one thing ,,,,,the cables and write uncompared notes about said cables, the exact cables, not similar cables. Listen without bias or a hint of what another thinks of said cables. The outcome blew us away. Almost word for word in our descriptions of the cables sounds and tendencies. Same flavor sound and tone , especially with particular types of music. But it really didnt matter the music played, our conclusions were the same. Im not going to argue with that. Nor will I argue with anybody that says otherwise, I just know and hear what I know and hear. The question should be...Do you understand why they may sound different? I've heard that braided cable of a certain wire diameter might sound pretty good in that there is no skin effect and the braiding of the wire helps with shielding. also if you have enough wires it will become effectively like a heavy gauge pipe with low resistance. Pick your medicine... |
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Post by bluemeanies on Mar 24, 2017 6:10:43 GMT -5
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Post by bluemeanies on Mar 24, 2017 6:39:06 GMT -5
Myths about speakers cables. Those ESOTERIC cables with there fine attractive covers and and sturdy shiny banana plugs.
Here is an article that some people may agree with when comparing cables.
In my personal experience I have had MONSTER cables (at the height of there popularity) BJC, MIT2 terminator cable, Tributaries and finally at this point and time settled for Nakamichi speakers cables and with some support and comparison testing with a little help from my friends, other music enthusiasts the results were the same.
They were created equal with there performance capabilities.
The article below lends some credence to the above.
If there is a pair of cables out there that significantly changes the overall sound, in tone, sonics and or soundstage I would like to know that brand of cable and I would like to borrow those cables for my own impressions but I do not thing they exist.
If anybody on this forum experiments it would be none other than Dr. Boom who is always in the lab so if Dr. Boom has a pair of 15'footers I would love to participate in the rise of a MONSTER cable and if it made a difference I would cry out "ITS ALIVE, ITS ALIVE!
by Stephen Mraz
Stephen Mraz
Nov 06, 2014
Do expensive speaker wires "sound" better? Not likely.
Can audiophiles and causal listeners improve their stereo system by upgrading one of the seemingly simpler components, the speaker wires and connectors? Some companies insist they can. So they offer speaker wire (or cables), sometimes for thousands of dollars that promise better tonality, warmer sound, and richly melodic sound free of grain. But many of these claims are bogus and they create myths surrounding speaker wires. Here are five of them:
More Myths from A Skeptical Engineer
5 Myths About Plastic Water Bottles: Economical and Safe? Hardly
6 Myths About Outer Space
Thicker wires are better: It’s true that for long runs, thicker wires are better at reducing the effects of resistance. But for most set ups (those with speakers within 100 ft of the amplifier), 16-gauge lamp cord is fine. For speakers 100 to 200 ft. from the amp, experts suggest use 14 gauge. And from 200 to 400 ft., they recommend 12-gauge wires. Using extremely thick wire for short runs yields virtually no audible benefit, at least none most people can hear.
Solving skin effect: It’s true that higher frequency signals tend to travel on a wire’s perimeter while lower-frequencies signals travel near the center. But any effect is only noticeable when dealing with miles of cable and frequencies not used for audio. So don’t waste any money “solving” this problem with intricately braided speaker cables.
Speaker wires should be the same length: It seems to make sense that speaker wires should be identical to eliminate phase shifts. But electrical signals travel through speaker wire at near the speed of light. It would take miles of speaker wire to hear any difference. So having wires a foot or two (or 10) different is irrelevant.
Break-in is “critical”: According to some so-called audio experts, the small electrical current passing through speaker wire physically alters the wire enough to create an audible change over time. Not true. Still, companies try to sell wire "cookers" and break-in services to perpetuate this myth and make a buck.
Splices degrade the sound: Audio experts have determined that properly spliced and soldered wires do not change or degrade the sound coming out of speakers. Although an oscilloscope can detect splices by identifying small voltage drops or spikes, the anomalies are too small to hear. Voltage used for driving speakers is simple voltage, and since regular fluctuations due to program and frequency type occur during normal use, splices produce no adverse audible effect.
Have you heard any stereo myths you’d like to pass on? Now’s the time.
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