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Post by audiosyndrome on May 14, 2017 21:50:04 GMT -5
To date I have not used the USB input on my XMC-1. According to the user manual the input "supports all standard sample rates between 44.1k and 192k". Roon and the soon to arrive SOtM sMS-200 (USB output) support just about anything you can name (24/384, 4x DSD, multi-channel, etc.). Has there been any discussion about upgrading the capabilities of the USB input? Perhaps a firmware change. Or more likely a hardware change.
If not it would be nice if the RMC-1, or the next generation XMC-1 would have those extended capabilities. Most new USB DACs have these capabilities.
Russ
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Post by Casey Leedom on May 14, 2017 22:53:11 GMT -5
Woah. I just checked out the SOtM sMS-200. $510. I'll be interested in hearing your review ...
Casey
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 15, 2017 12:03:53 GMT -5
The "USB Stream" input on the XMC-1 is a standard stereo PCM USB audio input - such as you would find on a two channel USB DAC. It was designed to handle two channel PCM audio up to 24/192k. Updating that to handle 24/384k PCM would require a hardware update. (I can count the number of 384k releases to date on one hand; they are huge, and it's questionable whether they really sound any better anyway, so there isn't really a lot of demand for that yet.) Handling DSD over USB requires something called DoP (DSD-over-PCM), which also requires a hardware update. Note that the XMC-1 DOES handle DSD, including both two channel and multi channel DSD, and multi-channel PCM, via HDMI.) As for streaming content, which is available in a staggering number of different formats, it's much easier to use something like a Roku, or a Roon box, for that. Or try a Raspberry Pi running Kodi. (Then just send the result to the XMC-1 as PCM or multi-channel PCM over HDMI.) Note that we are planning further support for multi-rate DSD and/or DoP on the RMC-1. (We'll release more details once they become definite.) To date I have not used the USB input on my XMC-1. According to the user manual the input "supports all standard sample rates between 44.1k and 192k". Roon and the soon to arrive SOtM sMS-200 (USB output) support just about anything you can name (24/384, 4x DSD, multi-channel, etc.). Has there been any discussion about upgrading the capabilities of the USB input? Perhaps a firmware change. Or more likely a hardware change. If not it would be nice if the RMC-1, or the next generation XMC-1 would have those extended capabilities. Most new USB DACs have these capabilities. Russ |
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Post by Casey Leedom on May 15, 2017 13:07:21 GMT -5
KeithL, it sounds like you guys are focusing on HDMI as the support mode for "high-end" audio formats, with USB and optical/coax S/PDIF for PCM up to some reasonable sample frequency. So if one were to go out searching for a Roon/DLNA/Squeeze solution in a separate box, one that supported HDMI outputs would be a Good Thing™ ... Casey
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 15, 2017 14:01:46 GMT -5
To be totally honest, I think most of us here consider 24/192k PCM to be "plenty good" for audiophile quality music. We included DSD in the XMC-1, and 32/384k PCM in the EGO DACs, because there was some demand, and because the hardware supported it, but I wouldn't call either a "core feature". Likewise, we plan to include DoP in the RMC-1, but it's not considered to be a critical core feature there either. Most DSD content still comes from SACDs.... and the SACD standard allows a player like the Oppo to play an SACD as DSD, or to convert it to PCM, but ONLY for output via HDMI. (The standard specifies that the resulting digital audio "must be sent over a secure connection" - for which HDMI qualifies, but DoP does NOT.) This means that players - like the Oppo - are limited to ONLY using HDMI to play audio from SACD discs. And those same players can also play downloaded DSD audio files over HDMI just fine (downloaded files can be played over any digital connection - the security restriction is only for SACDs). Many "computer-based" audio players that can play DSD files also have HDMI connections. This means that the MAJORITY of "universal DSD players" use HDMI - which is what we support. Just like DVD-A discs in the past, and SACD discs, so far DSD download files are a very small part of the overall market... and most players will cheerfully play them as DSD, or equally cheerfully convert them and play them as PCM. If you really want to be able to send DSD to the XMC-1 as DSD, then HDMI is going to be your best bet. Likewise, HDMI has the bandwidth to transfer high resolution multi-channel music, whereas USB is somewhat limited. Otherwise, if your goal is to play audiophile quality two-channel music, then just get a player that supports whatever formats you want to play, and outputs them as PCM, and you'll be very happy. (If you set jRiver Media Center correctly, it will play everything up to 24/192k PCM without altering it, and convert any of that other stuff to 24/192k PCM..... which sounds REALLY good.) Likewise, any Roon or DLNA solution that puts out 24/192k audio will sound excellent. So, yes, for anything up to two channels at 24/192k, USB works great. And, for multi-channel, or anything over 192k, HDMI would be your best bet. KeithL , it sounds like you guys are focusing on HDMI as the support mode for "high-end" audio formats, with USB and optical/coax S/PDIF for PCM up to some reasonable sample frequency. So if one were to go out searching for a Roon/DLNA/Squeeze solution in a separate box, one that supported HDMI outputs would be a Good Thing™ ... Casey |
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Post by Casey Leedom on May 15, 2017 15:05:24 GMT -5
Yeah, that's my attitude as well. It's just my crazy friend who keeps buying DSD at various rates and downloading them (we have a shared collection).
By the way, I think that the vast majority of DSD media is now bought and downloaded from various web sites without any kind of copy protection. SACD is pretty much dead I think.
Casey
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Post by Loop 7 on May 15, 2017 18:57:12 GMT -5
To be totally honest, I think most of us here consider 24/192k PCM to be "plenty good" for audiophile quality music. I'm in the camp that thinks 24/96 is more than ample most ears. I will be surprised but happy if DSD ever crosses the extreme niche threshold. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 16, 2017 11:26:42 GMT -5
Believe it or not new SACDs are still being made.... and a lot of people still seems to have quite a few of them. I assume there are also a lot available for good prices on the used market. It's also true that, in the past, many albums were released on SACD in surround sound versions that don't seem to be available in any other format. There are also several other "advantages" of SACD which really aren't technological... exactly... For one thing, editing DSD files - without converting them to PCM - is VERY difficult... and used to be even more so. Because of this, many actual DSD recordings have had very little editing (they're sort of like "direct to disc" recordings) and, in many cases, this can be a good thing. Another thing is that there is no "direct 1:1 conversion" between PCM and DSD. This means that there is always a tiny difference whenever you convert in either direction... so the DSD and PCM version will ALWAYS be slightly different, and the difference may be audible (or not). Finally, because SACDs have always been considered to be "an audiophile format", the SACD versions of many albums sound quite different than the Cd version - simply because they've been mastered differently. Luckily, even though ripping from a physical SACD is complicated, once you have a DSD file or SACD ISO, there are several programs that can convert between DSD and PCM and do a very good job. jRiver Media Center can convert to and from DSD And FooBar2000 can not only play DSD files and convert them to PCM, but it can take an ISO image of an SACD and convert it to PCM or FLAC, while also dividing it into separate tracks. In fact, if your SACD ISO has both stereo and surround versions, FooBar2000 can convert both separately (the multi-channel ones become multi-channel FLAC files). (If you use FooBar2000 you'll need a separate "SACD/DSD plugin" for it - which is also free.) While I personally don't claim to hear any specific difference between DSD and PCM, having another version of a given file, which may sound slightly different, simply gives us more choices. (Remember that virtually any program or device that plays DSD files or SACDs will cheerfully convert them into PCM if your DAC or other player doesn't support DSD.) Yeah, that's my attitude as well. It's just my crazy friend who keeps buying DSD at various rates and downloading them (we have a shared collection). By the way, I think that the vast majority of DSD media is now bought and downloaded from various web sites without any kind of copy protection. SACD is pretty much dead I think. Casey |
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Post by Casey Leedom on May 16, 2017 11:42:18 GMT -5
Oh, don't get me wrong: I am in no way defending/promoting DSD. I'm just noting that, at least with regard to my crazy friend Bill, there are more and more DSD assets out there for people like Bill who have more money than sense. And yes, I've heard that the DSD format is almost impossible to edit without going into something like PCM, so from a mastering standpoint, it sounds like a complete lose. (And given that I'm currently using an old Squeeze Touch, I definitely have the Squeeze Server resampling the DSDs that Bill buys into PCM.)
Casey
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Post by audiosyndrome on May 16, 2017 21:34:21 GMT -5
Hi Keith- thanks for commenting. Yes, I have a very large SACD collection, of which I play on my Oppo to the XMC via HDMI. Excellent results in both stereo and multichannel. I also think 24/96 is as good as we need to get for PCM. It's just that Roon and the SOtM unit can do so much I was a bit dissapointed to see that the USB input could not comply. Not the end of the world. I'm sure I'll be very happy streaming with my new toys.  Russ |
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Post by rhale64 on May 16, 2017 22:08:42 GMT -5
To date I have not used the USB input on my XMC-1. According to the user manual the input "supports all standard sample rates between 44.1k and 192k". Roon and the soon to arrive SOtM sMS-200 (USB output) support just about anything you can name (24/384, 4x DSD, multi-channel, etc.). Has there been any discussion about upgrading the capabilities of the USB input? Perhaps a firmware change. Or more likely a hardware change. If not it would be nice if the RMC-1, or the next generation XMC-1 would have those extended capabilities. Most new USB DACs have these capabilities. Russ I agree with this wholeheartedly. I have the Sotm sms200 hooked up through the USB input on my Xmc1. And all I can say is OMG. It is total musical enjoyment. But it is a bummer when I try to play any of my dad downloads and all it is is static. I am looking forward to the RMC1 so much. It will take this musical combo up so many notches. |
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Post by rhale64 on May 17, 2017 4:16:49 GMT -5
DSD downloads. Lol^
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