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Post by Gary Cook on Jul 21, 2017 0:43:38 GMT -5
I'm a little curious why you would want to UPSAMPLE to DSD512. (Ignoring the argument about whether RECORDING in DSD has some benefit; converting to it, or upsampling after the recording is made, doesn't gain you much, if anything at all.) There are many many topics on this across various forums with both objective data and subjective data. Upsampling via software has very large advantages. Sonically it's pretty amazing! Of course, like anything, it has to be done correctly. XXHigh End, HQ Player and Roon have it figured out. Personally, I use Roon as I have a very large library and it's seamless and only getting better I use a streamer attached so either one can use the upsampling via Roon or HQ Player (NAA). When it's upsampling how does it know what bits to add? Does it have some super secret information, that we don't know about, that it sources and slips back into the data stream? Or does it extrapolate what's already there? ie; fill in the missing bits by guesswork. To be blunt, it can't put back something what wasn't there in the original source. If it sounds "better" then it's almost certainly not due to the upsampling, but as a result of something else in the chain. Cheers Gary
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Post by Gary Cook on Jul 23, 2017 21:18:04 GMT -5
Warning: I know just enough about DSD to make questionable conclusions. I have read that DSD files must be converted to PCM for mixing and mastering. Does this mean that "pure" DSD can only be recorded during live performances? You can "record" DSD anytime with the right equipment. My sound mixer friends tell me that there are only a couple of pieces of hardware that can "mix" DSD but that they aren't common or inexpensive. As a result most DSD issues are transcoded to high‑resolution PCM, processed on the more common equipment and then transcoded back to DSD. Cheers Gary
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Post by goodenoughgear on Aug 4, 2017 8:20:28 GMT -5
Available in the 3rd quarter. We're getting nicely into the 3rd quarter...any chance of some details?
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Aug 4, 2017 9:42:46 GMT -5
"Pure DSD" is an oxymoron. The only "pure" digital is PCM.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 4, 2017 17:17:49 GMT -5
You are correct. Upsampling (or oversampling) DOES NOT add extra information, or replace information that has previously been discarded. ("Oversampling" is simply a specific term for upsampling to an even multiple of the original sample rate.) Upsampling has some advantages, but they are NOT related to improving accuracy or replacing information that's missing. The extra data that's added by upsampling is created by what's known as interpolation - which is a fancy way of saying "guessing what it should be based on what you have". There are different types of interpolation, and the mathematical details are slightly different, but none of them adds additional information. If you take a 44k file and upsample it to a 96k file, what you end up with is exactly the same information, only expressed at a higher sample rate. One benefit of upsampling involves the filtering that is a necessary part of the conversion process. The digital to analog conversion process requires that a low-pass filter be applied to the analog output. Without upsampling, the characteristics of the required filter are difficult to achieve, and often involve serious compromises. Upsampling the audio allows a different filter choice - one which is both easier to design and build and which produces less audible side effects. So upsampling doesn't improve the audio itself at all, but it allows a simpler and less intrusive filter to be use, which allows the audio through with fewer degrading side effects. The result is that, even though the digital audio itself isn't improved, the resulting analog output benefits. (However, note that most modern DACs perform this upsampling internally, so doing so a second time in software is redundant.) Another less finite benefit is that any sample rate conversion involves filtering. And any such filtering will CHANGE the audio in various minor - and possibly audible - ways. Note, however, that, while these changes may subjectively be "improvements", they do NOT in fact improve the accuracy of the audio signal. They simply offer a variety of different options to choose from. (HQPlayer in specific offers lots of slightly different options to choose from.) And, finally, some DACs may simply be optimized for certain sample rates, or may simply perform better at certain sample rates. (So, if your DAC itself "sounds better at 96k", then upsampling everything you play through it will improve the sound - not because the source is better but because it is "a better match" for the DAC.) There are many many topics on this across various forums with both objective data and subjective data. Upsampling via software has very large advantages. Sonically it's pretty amazing! Of course, like anything, it has to be done correctly. XXHigh End, HQ Player and Roon have it figured out. Personally, I use Roon as I have a very large library and it's seamless and only getting better I use a streamer attached so either one can use the upsampling via Roon or HQ Player (NAA). When it's upsampling how does it know what bits to add? Does it have some super secret information, that we don't know about, that it sources and slips back into the data stream? Or does it extrapolate what's already there? ie; fill in the missing bits by guesswork. To be blunt, it can't put back something what wasn't there in the original source. If it sounds "better" then it's almost certainly not due to the upsampling, but as a result of something else in the chain. Cheers Gary
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Post by Axis on Aug 4, 2017 17:30:14 GMT -5
I have yet to buy or try any high resolution music. Nothing anyone has said has convinced me that I will get a better music experience than the CD's I have.
I will not buy anything other than a CD until there is solid evidence that that there is a better experience to be had. I am not talking that about a little bit better.
I love music and listen to music more than most people do.
My CD's or FLAC files do me just fine.
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Post by Axis on Aug 4, 2017 17:38:03 GMT -5
DC-1 for my FLAC files and ERC-1 for my CD's
Who's with me ?
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Aug 4, 2017 17:56:41 GMT -5
I have yet to buy or try any high resolution music. Nothing anyone has said has convinced me that I will get a better music experience than the CD's I have. I will not buy anything other than a CD until there is solid evidence that that there is a better experience to be had. I am not talking that about a little bit better. I love music and listen to music more than most people do. My CD's or FLAC files do me just fine. Have you tried any higher res music? Oppo offers a few files for demo purposes for free. Full song. It is very good and ill say much better then CD quality. Give it a try.
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Post by sal1950 on Aug 4, 2017 18:23:32 GMT -5
MQA should (at most) be an add-on extra because I don't want it. AMEN, Friends don't let friends do MQA
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Post by Axis on Aug 4, 2017 18:30:05 GMT -5
I have yet to buy or try any high resolution music. Nothing anyone has said has convinced me that I will get a better music experience than the CD's I have. I will not buy anything other than a CD until there is solid evidence that that there is a better experience to be had. I am not talking that about a little bit better. I love music and listen to music more than most people do. My CD's or FLAC files do me just fine. Have you tried any higher res music? Oppo offers a few files for demo purposes for free. Full song. It is very good and ill say much better then CD quality. Give it a try. No I have not Nick. There has been zero scientific proof and overwhelming opinions of those I respected like KeithL that have kept me from that. I am old school. I had ten thousand records and high end gear before most here were born. I do not believe in anything above CD quality. I do not buy it, I will not pay for it. If there is a medium out there that provides a better music experience out there that I can believe in and it's cost is better than CD quality I will know about it. I am smart about music and money. No one as of now has sold me on better sound. If I had not heard it by now with all the music that I buy, then they have failed. I hear great sound now. This thing that there is always something better is bull crap to me. Most people like I have always said are stupid and will believe what they are told no matter. When there is proof that they can make digital music better I will buy it. It will not be because I read it on the internet.
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Post by Axis on Aug 4, 2017 18:47:59 GMT -5
I will say it again. Emotiva offers HDCD with there ERC CD players. If you have the chance to play a HDCD that goes to 20 bit, then you will hear a higher resolution sound.
My Nakamichi car CD players did the same.
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novisnick
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CEO Secret Monoblock Society
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Post by novisnick on Aug 4, 2017 20:07:51 GMT -5
Axis , as you may know I'm as big a vinyl freak as many can get but if you haven't tried it please don't knock it. I wont buy hi res files from anywhere but do believe they sound very good! Some are exceptional. BUT IMHO they do lack the feel and sound of a well pressed vinyl LP. I too was a skeptic at one time but I was mistaken,,,,to a point. Your Oppo 103 will play these files and they are free, why wouldn't you at least try listening to a few. www.oppodigital.com/hra/dsd-by-davidelias.aspx
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Post by Axis on Aug 4, 2017 20:23:07 GMT -5
Axis , as you may know I'm as big a vinyl freak as many can get but if you haven't tried it please don't knock it. I wont buy hi res files from anywhere but do believe they sound very good! Some are exceptional. BUT IMHO they do lack the feel and sound of a well pressed vinyl LP. I too was a skeptic at one time but I was mistaken,,,,to a point. Your Oppo 103 will play these files and they are free, why wouldn't you at least try listening to a few. www.oppodigital.com/hra/dsd-by-davidelias.aspx Nick I know you play vinyl. I got about 400 vinyl LP's that are waiting for a new needle. I hope I don't die before I get them back out and explore them again. About two years ago I went thru them. They are old and wore out. I got some that still shine and look forward to pulling them out again and looking at the album covers. You are special Nick and don't you forget it. I listen to Music more than most just like you. Most people spend there day looking at there phone to see what someone said to them. It is there Id, Ego and Superego that matters. You keep on truckin with music Nick and you will live a good life.
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Post by boomzilla on Aug 8, 2017 15:41:20 GMT -5
So let's cut to the chase:
Stealth DC-2 - 2017 or 2018? (big deal for me - eager to get a new DAC)
Cost?
DAC chipset to be used?
MQA?
Value compared to other DACs in the same price range?
Fixed or variable output?
Remote?
Enquiring minds want to know...
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Post by Gary Cook on Aug 8, 2017 16:16:01 GMT -5
My 20 cents, forget the DC-2, it's an orphan package. An XDA-3 is what we need, TI/Burr Brown DAC, all the digital input formats including HDMI, USB, toslink and coax. No analogue inputs, it's a DAC not a pre amp or a headphone amp, just a DAC. No need for volume control, factory engineer the output for the best quality sound. I could live with resister ladder volume controlled by the remote or the computer if that's it's source. Otherwise the remote controls the input and power on/off only. It probably needs to handle DSD, MQA not convinced. Cost $499.
Cheers Gary
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Post by earthboy on Aug 10, 2017 12:35:27 GMT -5
My 20 cents, forget the DC-2 . . . An XDA-3 is what we need, TI/Burr Brown DAC, . . . HDMI, USB, toslink and coax. No analogue inputs . . . No need for volume control, factory engineer the output for the best quality sound. . . . It probably needs to handle DSD, MQA not convinced. Cost $499. Cheers Gary OMG - you're absolutely right! I really need a DAC and may still get a DC-2, but an XDA-3 - now THAT is what I really want.
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 10, 2017 13:01:29 GMT -5
My 20 cents, forget the DC-2, it's an orphan package. An XDA-3 is what we need, TI/Burr Brown DAC, all the digital input formats including HDMI, USB, toslink and coax. No analogue inputs, it's a DAC not a pre amp or a headphone amp, just a DAC. No need for volume control, factory engineer the output for the best quality sound. I could live with resister ladder volume controlled by the remote or the computer if that's it's source. Otherwise the remote controls the input and power on/off only. It probably needs to handle DSD, MQA not convinced. Cost $499. Cheers Gary +1. Don't forget rack size width (about 17") with aesthetics of the XPA line. I say you are being too nice. To hell with the volume control. It doesn't belong here. This should be a signal in / signal out device. People who want headphone volume (or preamp control) should look elsewhere in their system. I'm thinking more like a Schiit Yggdrasil for a lot less money. Add a rack equipment type digital output (Toslink or RCA) for pass through and I'd consider it perfect (something even the Yggdrasil doesn't have).
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 10, 2017 13:09:17 GMT -5
So let's cut to the chase: Stealth DC-2 Don't care. I want an XDA-3. I'm GUESSING 2018 soonest. $500 Not an expert here so you choose. If it didn't raise the price through the roof or make us wait 3 years, absolutely. Fixed. Nope. Auto signal detect and manual, with selection switch on the front. Or another idea if better. I'm open.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 15:07:39 GMT -5
I beg to differ with Gary. The DC-1, and likely the DC-2, is not just a DAC; it makes an excellent stereo preamp because of the analog input and volume control combined with XLR and terrific audio quality, which is certainly how and why I use it. I've got a DAC and a USP-1, both rendered obsolete by the DC-1. It's also meant to be small, hence 'stealth', to fit with other pieces in the line such as the SP-1 and, hopefuly, more to come. Discussing the next XDA-size DAC is to me a bit orthogonal to the original questions of this thread: when is the STEALTH DC-2 coming and what will it have? Of course, there is likely time to talk about anything since no one has given substantive answers to those original questions.
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Post by Gary Cook on Aug 10, 2017 16:11:11 GMT -5
I beg to differ with Gary. The DC-1, and likely the DC-2, is not just a DAC; it makes an excellent stereo preamp because of the analog input and volume control combined with XLR and terrific audio quality, which is certainly how and why I use it. I've got a DAC and a USP-1, both rendered obsolete by the DC-1. It's also meant to be small, hence 'stealth', to fit with other pieces in the line such as the SP-1 and, hopefuly, more to come. Discussing the next XDA-size DAC is to me a bit orthogonal to the original questions of this thread: when is the STEALTH DC-2 coming and what will it have? Of course, there is likely time to talk about anything since no one has given substantive answers to those original questions. For small form factor I was considering a DC-1 for my home office, but the Ego made that thinking redundant, big time. A DC-1 could never replace a USP-1 or an XSP-1 in my system, no HT bypass, no provision for a TT and no bass management. Take a look at the DC-1 threads, a good many are about overcoming exactly those deficiencies. It is a product designed for a specific market and purpose in that market and because the XDA -2 hasn't been refreshed for far too long the wrong people are using the DC-1 for the wrong purpose. I don't believe that it is orthogonal to suggest that there is far more need for an XDA-3 than a DC-2, to answer the question "when is a DC-2 coming" I'd suggest an answer of never. Cheers Gary
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