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Post by etc6849 on Jul 22, 2017 23:42:10 GMT -5
Top 3 reasons.... 1. Performance is not up to par with what is capable with leading edge designs like what THX has done with their achromatic audio amplifier (AAA). It makes no sense to have a monoblock that can do 900 watts peak into speakers that don't need it when distortion is 100 times higher than my new Benchmark AHB2 amps. Each AHB2 was only about $1300 than I paid for one XPR amp, but has two channels that will drive your speakers without a hitch. I only bought more than one AHB2 since I am tri-amping, but the Benchmark stuff is in a whole another league and my setup sounds like it never has!   2. They get too hot and made clicking sounds as the heatsink heats up. They also required fans when I rack mounted them. 3. Heavy, but OK performance compared to 97% of what is out there until you see measurements like this (and go why do I keep lugging these heavy monsters around?): www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurementsI'd go further to say, if you are contemplating on buying the XPA monoblocks at $1199 each, stop and read some test data first. Well worth the extra $600 for having less distortion and smaller size in my opinion, but I hate hiss and love dynamic range... |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 23, 2017 0:33:00 GMT -5
Thanks for the good feedback. What other gear do you use with it? I'm never arrogant to think there isn't something better out there. The xpa1 gen 2 is the best amp I've heard though others have got close in their own way. But that's me. Looking forward to the future!
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Post by Gary Cook on Jul 23, 2017 1:02:36 GMT -5
Using the data you supplied, I don't know what planet you are on, but on my planet at 400 watts the difference is less than 0.007% and that's rather inaudible.
If you are lugging XPR's around then you have much bigger problems than their weight.
Since you are comparing a stereo amplifier with a monoblock, where's the cross talk data?
SMPS and twin, opposed, external heatsinks, good luck with that.
But the real issue with the AHB2 is that it's power supply output limited, they (deliberately) don't have the dynamic range of a linear power supplied amp like the XPR's. It's one of the ways they achieve the low distortion number, but they make sacrifices in other areas to achieve that. So I hope you have very efficient speakers because there's not a lot of dynamic range available to drive anything remotely inefficient.
From memory the AHB2's were designed in 2006, there's nothing revolutionary in its design. It has all of the trade off's that have existed for over a decade and as with all things audio, one measurement does not tell the whole story. Especially when that particular design was engineered to give good results in that one particular measurement.
I hope that you enjoy your AHB2, but don't fool yourself into thinking that it's something special, it's a common enough design, 10+ years old, that had good things, average things and bad things about it.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by lehighvalleyjeff on Jul 23, 2017 1:13:00 GMT -5
I've owned XPR-1's for 2 years and am relatively satisfied with their performance. Honestly I'm a bit underwhelmed with Emotiva's current offerings but for a solid state amp they perform quite well. Speaker matching can be a bit tricky. From experience they mate very well with NHT, Paradigm and Polk; however, when I mated them with my Legacy Audio Whisper XD's and now my XDS the treble was a bit abrasive for my tastes. In fairness to the XPR's I've grown fond of tube amps since so please take that as only my opinion or preference.
I'm not sure that sonically I understand your reasoning for the benchmarks except for in an active tri-amping situation which has potential to outperform a single amp driving the entire frequency range and depending upon your speakers' internal crossovers.
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Post by qdtjni on Jul 23, 2017 3:13:33 GMT -5
Each AHB2 was only about $1300 than I paid for one XPR amp, but has two channels that will drive your speakers without a hitch. I only bought more than one AHB2 since I am tri-amping, but the Benchmark stuff is in a whole another league and my setup sounds like it never has! Sounds like you use the AHB2 in Stereo mode so unless you're using them in bridged mono mode, the graph with THD+N at 8 Ohm should have been the below one.  |
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Post by assy74 on Jul 23, 2017 3:35:01 GMT -5
I don't think xpr is the best amplifier...... But compared to the price, then there a few contenders! I have xpr-5 and compared it against NAD M25 7 channel amplifier, and I found xpr5 supperior  not by miles, but slightly better! And I have compared to bryston 4bsst in stereo mode. I think xpr5 is just ahead..... Bryston and NAD are quite known brands. Emotiva is not ultra high end, but upper medium high end to a price no other brands can compare with! So if you are like me and don't wanna spend 10k++++, then emotive is your brand but there is always the matching dilemma..... Some amps and speakers don't get along, and the taste for sound will always be different |
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Post by Jim on Jul 23, 2017 6:43:16 GMT -5
All I've really gotten out of this thread is "I bought more expensive, lower wattage amps that are lighter".
?
I'm glad you're happy with your new purchase.... if you don't need the power of the XPR why did you buy it to begin with?
Numbers like .02% vs .002%? Or .0000005% I'm skeptical of that being audible or meaningful in anyway. You can hear compression and dynamic range (watts matter). That means far more than how many 0s you can count.
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Post by audiophill on Jul 23, 2017 7:11:03 GMT -5
I love my XPR-1's and will never go to another pair of mono blocks! They are epic in every way possible teamed up with my XMC-1 and Tekton design brilliance. I couldn't be any happier.
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Post by htguy on Jul 23, 2017 7:20:06 GMT -5
Top 3 reasons.... 1. Performance is not up to par with what is capable with leading edge designs like what THX has done with their achromatic audio amplifier (AAA). It makes no sense to have a monoblock that can do 900 watts peak into speakers that don't need it when distortion is 100 times higher than my new Benchmark AHB2 amps. Each AHB2 was only about $1300 than I paid for one XPR amp, but has two channels that will drive your speakers without a hitch. I only bought more than one AHB2 since I am tri-amping, but the Benchmark stuff is in a whole another league and my setup sounds like it never has! 2. They get too hot and made clicking sounds as the heatsink heats up. They also required fans when I rack mounted them. 3. Heavy, but OK performance compared to 97% of what is out there until you see measurements like this (and go why do I keep lugging these heavy monsters around?): www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurementsI'd go further to say, if you are contemplating on buying the XPA monoblocks at $1199 each, stop and read some test data first. Well worth the extra $600 for having less distortion and smaller size in my opinion, but I hate hiss and love dynamic range... Wow they are listed at 2995 but you paid 1300 for each AHB2 so you really got a very good price. Is 1300 the normal street price or a very special deal? - Ah ok I see you meant to say "more" than one XPR amp. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Jul 23, 2017 8:00:52 GMT -5
Since when does THX make amps? The ordinate in your post - is it THD+N as in Emotiva's? Or is it THD only? I use XPA-1 Gen.1 monoblocks with 3.6R Magnaplanars which are known for their uncanny high frequency performance from their unique single long wire tweeter and I only get total sweetness and no edge. Do not underestimate the quality that overhead power brings to music and theater sound reproduction. It's not apparent most of the time, but when you need it it will pleaseyou to have that headroom. I think you are misled, but if you are pleased, that's all that counts!
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Post by mgbpuff on Jul 23, 2017 8:14:47 GMT -5
O.K., I see that John Atkinson did the testing and the distortion ordinate is indeed THD+N. The measurements on the ABH2 are indeed great. BUT, it is a 100W amp AND it has a uncharacteristic VERY low gain at 22.5 Db. It may suit your setup and ears, but it is not the universal answer to everyone's system.
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator 
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,490
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Post by LCSeminole on Jul 23, 2017 8:32:23 GMT -5
Top 3 reasons.... 1. Performance is not up to par with what is capable with leading edge designs like what THX has done with their achromatic audio amplifier (AAA). It makes no sense to have a monoblock that can do 900 watts peak into speakers that don't need it when distortion is 100 times higher than my new Benchmark AHB2 amps. Each AHB2 was only about $1300 than I paid for one XPR amp, but has two channels that will drive your speakers without a hitch. I only bought more than one AHB2 since I am tri-amping, but the Benchmark stuff is in a whole another league and my setup sounds like it never has! View AttachmentView Attachment2. They get too hot and made clicking sounds as the heatsink heats up. They also required fans when I rack mounted them. 3. Heavy, but OK performance compared to 97% of what is out there until you see measurements like this (and go why do I keep lugging these heavy monsters around?): www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurementsI'd go further to say, if you are contemplating on buying the XPA monoblocks at $1199 each, stop and read some test data first. Well worth the extra $600 for having less distortion and smaller size in my opinion, but I hate hiss and love dynamic range... 1) To borrow a long time Lounge members,(thanks Dyohn), signature line, "Inaudible is inaudible and you don't get extra brownie points for making it twice as inaudible as another solution. - Kevin Haskins 2) I've had my XPR's for close to 5 years now, and I've yet to hear a heat sink click. When rack mounted, I personally believe it good advice to use a fan/exhaust system with any amplifiers and any other components enclosed in any rack system. Electronics do generate heat and heat is detrimental to electronics. 3) Yes the XPR amplifier line are quite heavy, no different than most non-Class D amplifiers of similar build. Personally my XPR's haven't moved from their original placement in my setup, except to dust underneath and around every so often, so movement just isn't a factor for me. |
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Post by vneal on Jul 23, 2017 8:44:36 GMT -5
I say good for you. Now if you think I am someone who has not heard the Benchmark brand you would be mistaken. I heard it at a HAS(Houston Audio Society) meeting paired against Emotiva XPR amps using Raidho speakers, so high quality sources were not lacking. Don't know the preamp brand but it was not entry level, CD was an Oppo & table was a VPI Classic 3.What I liked with the Benchmark was lots of detail. Music enjoyment varied alot. Some recordings were detailed and breath taking but some others were shrill sounding and sounded horrible. I would have to be able to listen to all my music not just certain recordings. Now the Benchmark is a low-gain design. Maximum output is not reached until the balanced inputs reach +22 dBu. This is a much higher signal level than is used at the input of most power amplifiers. High interface signal levels are required to achieve the best possible system signal to noise ratio (SNR).th the Benchmark.
Now enter the Emotiva. it was not as detailed but all recordings sounded great and all music could be listened to. No shrill. Point being I think in the long run you may be searching for a new amp again. I realize amps can sound different speakers. But I would die for the sound of these Raidho speakers and the Benchmark would be the amp I would not buy based on this speaker. Point being there is not a catch all amp for every component.
With my modest main system I like the sound of my McIntosh amp but am waiting for the next generation Emotiva reference mono amp. I know it is in the plans. Maybe a Emotiva RMA-1. Cheers
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Post by etc6849 on Jul 23, 2017 9:23:11 GMT -5
I admit, I was skeptical at first, BUT let me elaborate for those that won't go and compare ALL measurements in the two reviews. Plus I have lived with both setups, and know I can hear artists breathing on many Chesky tracks that I couldn't hear before, better bass (because IMD IS AUDIBLE). I am in South Carolina so if anyone is local, PM me. I don't mind showing the amps to you and letting you hear my new stereo setup. Yes, THX doesn't normally design amps. They spent 10 years developing THX AAA though and have world class research and testing facilities, so I tend to trust them when it comes to technical performance (versus some of the advice I've seen in this thread). Been here for years and owned $12k+ of Emotiva products in my theater at one point. They are great for the price, but I wanted to show the next step to folks who might have an extra $1300+ to spend for a lot better performance. I am surprised a little by some of the inflammatory language (ok, I am not ). Selling all my Emotiva gear and adding $5k to buy top level pro gear was the smartest thing I ever did sound wise, and I loved my heavy XPR amps just like you guys love yours. However, I am always seeking better performance, and decided why not try something different. Yes, I am saying that even if you bought two new XPA-1's they will have lack luster performance compared to the best amp spec wise: the Benchmark AHB2. I have no doubt on this, and posted some more measurements below, and this price difference is only $600. A couple more points: 1. I was comparing monoblock mode to monoblock. This is why I found the measurements I did (duh). I was being very objective, and it is easy to see that 100 times less distortion (XPR-1 remains below .05 and AHB2 remains below .0005%), and if you don't think this is audible, maybe you should try an AHB2 out and see for yourself, cause it is very audible. 2. THE AHB2 HAS THE BEST DYNAMIC RANGE OF ANY AMP AT ANY PRICE (that I have seen third party measurements for). If you think the hiss from the XPR-1 amps isn't audible, it could be your room is very noisy, etc... To quote the Stereophile review: "By analogy, an amplifier with a maximum signal/noise ratio of 96dB would, if its noise floor were random, have 16-bit resolution. The Benchmark amplifier has a claimed S/N ratio "approaching 130dB," which, at 6.02dB per bit, is equivalent to more than 21-bit resolution. This is superb performance, given that the practical limit of DAC resolution is currently also close to 21 bits. Conventionally, it is assumed that the measurement system used to test a product is much better than the device under test. Read more at www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurements#QZMDrxOfKpiIyMpR.99" 2. Music should be DYNAMIC and if it is THE FIRST FEW WATTS MATTER GREATLY! This means that performance for the first few watts is highly audible (unless you are a punk rocky and listen to loud stuff). Read up on the "loudness wars" and listen to stuff that has quiet parts too. You will never come close to using the power the XPR offers, so why do you think you need the headroom when an AHB2 in monoblock mode can do 500 watts into 8 ohms? Look what it can do into 4 ohms in STEREO mode:  Previously, you needed headroom, because distortion curves like the one above would look worse as impedance drops, but THX's design is so well thoughtout, it isn't the case anymore! What's worse is historically large amps had poor performance for the first 10 watts and this is what you spend the most time listening too (whether you realize it or not).
3. Look at the cleanliness of this spectrum and compare it to the spectrums of Emotiva amps: 4. LET'S COMPARE SOME INTER-MODULATION DISTORTION AND COMPARE SOME OF THOSE MEASUREMENTS
Because IMD is very audible, especially for low frequencies...   Video on THX AAA design: Benchmark AHB2: www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurementsEmotiva measurements: (I've found): www.stereophile.com/content/emotiva-xpa-gen3-two-channel-power-amplifier-measurementshometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/power-amplifier/emotiva-xpr-1-monoblock-power-amplifier/hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/power-amplifier/emotiva-xpa-1-gen-2-monoblock-power-amplifier-review/ |
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Post by etc6849 on Jul 23, 2017 9:36:00 GMT -5
To be far, it is far more than a 100W amp. In fact, the plot in my first post shows a bridge mode measurement with 500 watts into 8 ohms... Also sensitivity is adjustable, although it does have a tad lower gain than normal (but who cares if it lowers IMD, THD and has the best specs). I have to agree with your point, the review I linked talks some about your other point: "All measurements were taken with balanced input signals, and throughout this review I refer to the AHB2's Channel 1 as "left" and Channel 2 as "right." The voltage gain at 1kHz into 8 ohms depended on the rear-panel switch position. With the switch set to a sensitivity of "9.8V/22dBU," the gain was 9.2dB, which is appropriate for pro-audio sources but very low for domestic use. With the switch set to "4V/14.2dBU," the AHB2's gain was 17dB; with it set to "2V/8.2dBU," the gain was 22.9dB. This is still around 4dB lower than is usual for a domestic amplifier, but shouldn't be a problem with typical high-end preamplifiers and digital processors. Read more at www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurements#QZMDrxOfKpiIyMpR.99" All I can say is, the tad lower gain really doesn't matter on the 4 ohm speakers I hooked one to or on my main system. My other setup is a tri-amp setup that is far from normal, but I am confident on both systems, it will never clip. What is really nice is the adjustable sensitivity so it will play nice with pro audio gear or consumer gear. O.K., I see that John Atkinson did the testing and the distortion ordinate is indeed THD+N. The measurements on the ABH2 are indeed great. BUT, it is a 100W amp AND it has a uncharacteristic VERY low gain at 22.5 Db. It may suit your setup and ears, but it is not the universal answer to everyone's system. |
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Post by etc6849 on Jul 23, 2017 9:45:46 GMT -5
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Post by etc6849 on Jul 23, 2017 9:52:14 GMT -5
My office/headphone rig:  |
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Post by Jim on Jul 23, 2017 9:54:53 GMT -5
$100 says at normal listening levels you couldn't tell the difference in a double blind test.
I remain a skeptic. Dan and Lonnie periodically will say something to the effect of "measurements aren't everything". Because they aren't. I still don't buy the audibility of .005 or .0005 vs .02.
THX lost its credibility for me when they started rubber stamping mediocre consumer grade gear. Yay! THX certified cables. Really? They'll certify anything for the right price.
I'm sure the AAA amps are good, but there are lots of good amps. I'm just not certain that simply because it tests better in a couple aspects it's the end all be all.
For a pissant 100W in stereo for $3000, it better have incredible measurements. But 100W is pretty meager.
Regardless, I'm glad you've found a solution you're happy with. But comparing it with XPR amps is an apples to oranges comparison.
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Post by etc6849 on Jul 23, 2017 10:11:42 GMT -5
I definitely agree on the 100 watt comment. Historically the other posters have a point as larger amps meant better slew rates, better damping factor, (I know very few mentioned these terms, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt), etc... However, THX has changed this with the Benchmark AHB2's design. The measurements show that the little amp can deliver and distortion is unaffected even when halving impedance!?! In fact, in my tri-amp setup my woofers measure 2.6 ohms (resistance, e.g. impedance at DC), and I know they drop below 2 ohms impedance at 80Hz. The AHB2 delivers and makes my bass sound incredible. In my tri-amp setup I had used the XPR-1's and then sold those and kept an XPR-2 to drive my woofers, but honestly, I am hearing more bass detail than I have ever heard on my audiophile test tracks. If skeptical, why not call Benchmark and do an in home trial or fly to Columbia, SC and hear mine? I am close to 40, but I'd like to think I have very good ears. Three audiophiles heard both setups, and all can't believe the added clarity, detail and lower noise floor. Definitely, you can hear a difference compared to my old XMC-1 and XPR setup. It is truly night and day hearing guitarists breath and the extra detail in the string pluck. Even with my ears into my drivers I hear no background hiss either (and this is without passive crossovers installed). Before even with passive crossovers and all of the resistors they have, the XPR's would have audible hiss no matter what. For loud tracks, this isn't an issue, but I love Chesky and AIX records and they have lots of dynamic range and quiet parts to most tracks... $100 at normal listening levels you couldn't tell the difference in a double blind test. I remain a skeptic. Dan and Lonnie periodically will say something to the effect of "measurements aren't everything". Because they aren't. I still don't buy the audibility of .005 or .0005 vs .02. |
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Post by 405x5 on Jul 23, 2017 10:17:36 GMT -5
Top 3 reasons.... 1. Performance is not up to par with what is capable with leading edge designs like what THX has done with their achromatic audio amplifier (AAA). It makes no sense to have a monoblock that can do 900 watts peak into speakers that don't need it when distortion is 100 times higher than my new Benchmark AHB2 amps. Each AHB2 was only about $1300 than I paid for one XPR amp, but has two channels that will drive your speakers without a hitch. I only bought more than one AHB2 since I am tri-amping, but the Benchmark stuff is in a whole another league and my setup sounds like it never has! View AttachmentView Attachment2. They get too hot and made clicking sounds as the heatsink heats up. They also required fans when I rack mounted them. 3. Heavy, but OK performance compared to 97% of what is out there until you see measurements like this (and go why do I keep lugging these heavy monsters around?): www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurementsI'd go further to say, if you are contemplating on buying the XPA monoblocks at $1199 each, stop and read some test data first. Well worth the extra $600 for having less distortion and smaller size in my opinion, but I hate hiss and love dynamic range... Another fine example of top marks for Emotiva, who graciously allows a negative rant to run on their forum (good sports) from someone who is running those amps in an uncharacteristic tri amp mode, then piling up negative nonsense that if anything, has all to do with the way the amps are connected to who knows what. Good Emotiva sports. Bill |
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