Is there old AVP that has better preamp than XMC?

[fludimir]

I have XMC and amazed by its sound for its price range, but now I'm in sutiation where XMCs stereo preamp is some kind of bottleneck for my system. I like multichannel music and dont want to go to pure stereo and have no space to separate stereo and multichannel, so I need to find AVP that will be not worse than XMC for multichannel audio and better for stereo. Without big budget I'm looking on many old AVPs like Theta Casablanca/Casanova, Krell Showcase, Proceed AVP, Sunfire Theater and etc on the market for very low price.  Looking at least on their retail price I think they should be built on better components than XMC and may sound better. So did anybody compared XMC with any old top-level processor?

I understand that any processor without HDMI wont support hi-res formats, but Its ok. Actually I have Oppo105 for hi-res and dsd, just need 5.1 analog input in processor. My main DAC is recapped multibit Krell Studio and for cd-format (which is 95% of my music) it blows up many other DACs that I've listened , but it requires very good preamp. Not bad XMCs balanced preamp is not sufficient, so I need AVP with very good preamp. I'll be very suprised if any processor have better dac than my Krell, but I'll be happy to have at least very good six channel dac even if I can listen just DD/DTS 5.1 with it.

[Casey Leedom]

The RMC-1 perhaps? 16 fully balanced channels with AK4490EQ DACs operating in dual-monaural mode (technically a Team term). According to the latest podcast, it should be out by the end of this year. It's $5K, but I saw someone offered a lifetime 40% Off card for $400 just a few days ago ...

Or, maybe even better, the XMC-2 which will have fully balanced front three channels. Unfortunately, that's all the information we have on it. No idea what DACs, availability, price, etc.

Casey

[Gary Cook]

To actually get anything better than the analogue stage in an XMC-1 you are really way past AVR's. For stereo 2.1 music a dedicated stereo preamp is the answer with analogue bass management, like an XSP-1 for example. Which seems a logical step since you are using the 2 channel Krell Studio DAC and you listen to "cd-format (which is 95% of my music)".

Don't understand why you have an Oppo 105 (for its Sabre DAC) which you don't need it as you have the the Krell Studio DAC, you might as well sell the 105 and get a 103 or update to a 203. Then use the extra money to buy a dedicated stereo pre amp.

I'm sure that you are aware of the limitations in the 5.1 analogue output of the Oppo105 for multichannel music, particularly if you are using the dedicated L&R channels output (XLR or RCA) for the mains.


Cheers
Gary

[boomzilla]

Hi fludimir -

IMHO you don't need a new processor. You need an ultra-high quality stereo preamp with a HT bypass.

When you're listening to stereo, you'll run only the stereo preamp. When you're doing multi-channel, you'll be using the "HT-bypass" feature of the stereo preamp so that your UMC-1 will be running the show.

So who makes top quality stereo preamps with HT bypass? Just about everyone! Shop around till you find one you like.

Happy Shopping!

Boom

[fludimir]

Thanks for the replies, guys. Yes I thought about "ultra-high quality stereo preamp with a HT bypass" and its my second plan. However while there a lot of high quality preamps not many of them have HT bypass (and many have only rca bypass which will be not good for XMC).
RMC costs $5K and I'm not sure that each of 16 differential channels will be much better quality that 2 XMCs differential channels.  And really I'm looking for much less expensive solution.

>Don't understand why you have an Oppo 105 (for its Sabre DAC) which you don't need it as you have the the Krell Studio DAC, you might as well sell the 105 and get a 103 or update to a 203. Then use the extra money to buy a dedicated stereo pre amp.
I've bought Oppo before Krell and XMC and didnt sold it yet, just planned. However if I'll replace XMC with old processor without HDMI inputs I'll need Oppo105 analog outs for sacd/dvda and etc.

[cwt]

Aug 5, 2017 7:25:32 GMT -5 fludimir said:

Thanks for the replies, guys. Yes I thought about "ultra-high quality stereo preamp with a HT bypass" and its my second plan. However while there a lot of high quality preamps not many of them have HT bypass (and many have only rca bypass which will be not good for XMC).

Considered wyred4sound fludimir ? This is the Aus website ; www.deephzaudio.com/Wyred%204%20sound%20STP-SE%20pre%20amp%20product%20page%20%20page.html

Configurable and balanced

Home Theater bypass (customizable for any input, also DC Trigger input selected)

[fludimir]

Looks like very good preamp, will add to preamps list. But primarily I want to try some AVPs

[wilburthegoose]

Tough to find. Reason - it won't sell.

People today think an iPhone with $40 headphones is all they need.

[vcautokid]

Just my nickel here. Inflation you know. Remember the XMC-1 Stereo channels are truly balanced high quality stages. Running your Oppo Balanced analog out into the XMC-1 should really rock the vote here. Not really sure you will get more adding more complexity to the signal chain. Sold Krell for years. Not so sure if their new stuff is all that against the XMC-1. Experimentation is the cool fun part of our hobby, and there are many avenues that are our journey to the desired destination. Just not sure what "Je Ne Sais Quoi" quality you are after. After seeing the other posts here, there are good ideas, but still uncertain what you you are after. Like I said, just my nickel. Would love to know what you go with. Like I said, the journey is real fun.

[garbulky]

If you can take the ht bypass out of your requirements, your selection pool becomes wider. I reccomend the Audio GD HE-1 going off brutiarti 's reccomendation. That's what I hope to eventually buy.
But the XMC-1 analog channels are probably really good.

[Gary Cook]

For listening to CD's I run fully discrete, balanced, differential all the way from the output of the ERC-3 to the XPA-1L's through the XSP-1, I have real trouble imagining anything sounding noticeably better. You can achieve the same, using the balanced outputs of the 105, through the XMC-1 to your XPA-1L's. So that's the first set up I would try, with the sound pretty much dictated by the Sabre DAC in the 105. At the same time I'd set up the digital output of the 105 into the Krell DAC then input into the XMC-1. It would then be easy and quick to switch listening to the 105 DAC compared to the Krell DAC. With the same CD (or better still a few different styles of music) playing in the 105 you can tell exactly which DAC you prefer. Keep that one and sell the other one.

The XMC-1 has a pretty good analogue pre-amp stage so you are going to have to try real hard to find anything much better. The advantage of a dedicated analogue pre-amp is that they don't have all that digital stuff in the same box. That can make them more accurate and quieter. There really is no choice but to audition likely candidates and then be sure, take your time to pick the one that suites your taste. Analogue pre-amps last a long long time, decades even, without going out of date, so you are likely to keep it for a while. Other than the obvious tube versus SS difference I wouldn't expect it to be very easy or straight forward. So take you time knowing that the XMC-1 is pretty good and you're not suffering that much.

Cheers
Gary

[Lsc]

Aug 4, 2017 18:54:45 GMT -5 fludimir said:

I have XMC and amazed by its sound for its price range, but now I'm in sutiation where XMCs stereo preamp is some kind of bottleneck for my system. I like multichannel music and dont want to go to pure stereo and have no space to separate stereo and multichannel, so I need to find AVP that will be not worse than XMC for multichannel audio and better for stereo. Without big budget I'm looking on many old AVPs like Theta Casablanca/Casanova, Krell Showcase, Proceed AVP, Sunfire Theater and etc on the market for very low price.  Looking at least on their retail price I think they should be built on better components than XMC and may sound better. So did anybody compared XMC with any old top-level processor?

I understand that any processor without HDMI wont support hi-res formats, but Its ok. Actually I have Oppo105 for hi-res and dsd, just need 5.1 analog input in processor. My main DAC is recapped multibit Krell Studio and for cd-format (which is 95% of my music) it blows up many other DACs that I've listened , but it requires very good preamp. Not bad XMCs balanced preamp is not sufficient, so I need AVP with very good preamp. I'll be very suprised if any processor have better dac than my Krell, but I'll be happy to have at least very good six channel dac even if I can listen just DD/DTS 5.1 with it.

[Lsc]

Aug 4, 2017 18:54:45 GMT -5 fludimir said:

I have XMC and amazed by its sound for its price range, but now I'm in sutiation where XMCs stereo preamp is some kind of bottleneck for my system. I like multichannel music and dont want to go to pure stereo and have no space to separate stereo and multichannel, so I need to find AVP that will be not worse than XMC for multichannel audio and better for stereo. Without big budget I'm looking on many old AVPs like Theta Casablanca/Casanova, Krell Showcase, Proceed AVP, Sunfire Theater and etc on the market for very low price.  Looking at least on their retail price I think they should be built on better components than XMC and may sound better. So did anybody compared XMC with any old top-level processor?

I understand that any processor without HDMI wont support hi-res formats, but Its ok. Actually I have Oppo105 for hi-res and dsd, just need 5.1 analog input in processor. My main DAC is recapped multibit Krell Studio and for cd-format (which is 95% of my music) it blows up many other DACs that I've listened , but it requires very good preamp. Not bad XMCs balanced preamp is not sufficient, so I need AVP with very good preamp. I'll be very suprised if any processor have better dac than my Krell, but I'll be happy to have at least very good six channel dac even if I can listen just DD/DTS 5.1 with it.

The Theta Casanova. My buddy has one. Let me know if you are interested.

[Gary Cook]

Aug 6, 2017 17:01:15 GMT -5 Lsc said:

The Theta Casanova. My buddy has one. Let me know if you are interested.

I remember listening to the 5 channel version in the big sound room at my local hifi retailer, it sounded petty damn good. The only issue is that joint has been closed since 1999, so the CasaNova must be getting on for 20 years old. And the big complaint about them at the time was that they were almost out of date the day they were launched, that's processing wise of course. I do recall (silly things one remembers) that it came with some strange room correction software called "Dirac" never heard of it If you are contemplating the CasaNova make sure that it comes with a manual, it weighed about the same as decent 5 channel power amp. Or at the very least that you can download one.

Cheers
Gary

[405x5]

Aug 4, 2017 18:54:45 GMT -5 fludimir said:

" Sunfire Theater and etc on the market for very low price.  Looking at least on their retail price I think they should be built on better components than XMC and may sound better. So did anybody compared XMC with any old top-level processor?

I understand that any processor without HDMI wont support hi-res formats, but Its ok. Actually I have Oppo105 for hi-res and dsd, just need 5.1 analog input in processor. My main DAC is recapped multibit Krell Studio and for cd-format (which is 95% of my music) it blows up many other DACs that I've listened , but it requires very good preamp. Not bad XMCs balanced preamp is not sufficient, so I need AVP with very good preamp. I'll be very suprised if any processor have better dac than my Krell, but I'll be happy to have at least very good six channel dac even if I can listen just DD/DTS 5.1 with it."

The Sunfire Theater Grand 2 is STILL an awesome sounding preamp for both audiophile listening and home theater. You can buy one dirt cheap on EBay, being outdated with no HDMI.
That's the unit I took out of service when I put the XMC in there.
I used to LOVE the sound processing effects, particularly CATHEDRAL, that purists may scoff at but breathed new life into some recordings that were dead without it.

Bill

[Lsc]

Aug 6, 2017 18:17:51 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

Aug 6, 2017 17:01:15 GMT -5 Lsc said:

The Theta Casanova. My buddy has one. Let me know if you are interested.

I remember listening to the 5 channel version in the big sound room at my local hifi retailer, it sounded petty damn good. The only issue is that joint has been closed since 1999, so the CasaNova must be getting on for 20 years old. And the big complaint about them at the time was that they were almost out of date the day they were launched, that's processing wise of course. I do recall (silly things one remembers) that it came with some strange room correction software called "Dirac" never heard of it If you are contemplating the CasaNova make sure that it comes with a manual, it weighed about the same as decent 5 channel power amp. Or at the very least that you can download one.

Cheers
Gary

It doesn't have Dirac - not that I can recall. I have a copy of the manual.

Yes, it's outdated but if used as a 2 channel preamp, it's pretty darn good and it can process Directv audio which is the Dolby surround 5.1.

[fludimir]

Thanks all but I should say it again - Krell Studio DAC, regardless of its "obsolescence", performs Digital-to-Analog conversion for CD-format better than Oppo105, XMC and Oppo105+XMC. Level better, really. And thats why decent as for AVP balanced preamp in XMC is not sufficient.
I've tried some 2-channel preamps and they sounded better. I've also tried old Proceed PAV (its a pro, but its so old that it hasnt any optical or coax input) and was very satisfied with its sound, but that old "processor" now cant be used any way except 2channel preamp (and its not so good as very good 2channel preamps). However Theta Casanova or Sunfire Theater have all inputs that I need (2channel and multichannel analog, optical and coax digital) but will they sound better than XMC? I need opinions from persons who compared or at least listened to both units.
Old pro-s are sold dirty cheap on ebay now, but I dont want to buy them all even if I can buy 3-4 units for the XMC price. Maybe I'll have CasaNova to compare with XMC in near future and will compare it by myself.

[cwt]

Aug 7, 2017 18:10:29 GMT -5 fludimir said:

I've also tried old Proceed PAV (its a pro, but its so old that it hasnt any optical or coax input) and was very satisfied with its sound, but that old "processor" now cant be used any way except 2channel preamp (and its not so good as very good 2channel preamps). However Theta Casanova or Sunfire Theater have all inputs that I need (2channel and multichannel analog, optical and coax digital) but will they sound better than XMC?

No experience with older pre pros fludimir so take this with a pinch of salt but one reason the xmc1 has the extra engineering cost of common mode balanced noise reduction on its xlr's is its close proximity to other sources of emi/rf hash in the chassis . It will be very hard to find an older pre pro with the dual differential input to output noise reduction and its 6db or so s/n ratio improvement . If one does it would be the previously exxy Casanova I imagine ; its certainly big enough for dual circuitry

[405x5]

Aug 7, 2017 18:10:29 GMT -5 fludimir said:

Thanks all but I should say it again - Krell Studio DAC, regardless of its "obsolescence", performs Digital-to-Analog conversion for CD-format better than Oppo105, XMC and Oppo105+XMC. Level better, really. And thats why decent as for AVP balanced preamp in XMC is not sufficient."

Not a chance of this.

[namikis]

Aug 7, 2017 18:10:29 GMT -5 fludimir said:

Thanks all but I should say it again - Krell Studio DAC, regardless of its "obsolescence", performs Digital-to-Analog conversion for CD-format better than Oppo105, XMC and Oppo105+XMC. Level better, really. And thats why decent as for AVP balanced preamp in XMC is not sufficient.
I've tried some 2-channel preamps and they sounded better. I've also tried old Proceed PAV (its a pro, but its so old that it hasnt any optical or coax input) and was very satisfied with its sound, but that old "processor" now cant be used any way except 2channel preamp (and its not so good as very good 2channel preamps). However Theta Casanova or Sunfire Theater have all inputs that I need (2channel and multichannel analog, optical and coax digital) but will they sound better than XMC? I need opinions from persons who compared or at least listened to both units.
Old pro-s are sold dirty cheap on ebay now, but I dont want to buy them all even if I can buy 3-4 units for the XMC price. Maybe I'll have CasaNova to compare with XMC in near future and will compare it by myself.

After trying a few other pres,  I ended up with a McCormack RLD1  for two channel.  It has HT bypass and sounds amazing in 2 channel (certainly better than the XMC-1).   No XLR though.  

After owning the Oppo 105 I agree the Sabre DACs  are nothing to write home about.  Sounded dry and lifeless to me.