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Post by jimlazaro on Oct 26, 2017 20:15:53 GMT -5
Hello fellow Emotiva funs.
I would like to know people who have experience that they gave up or upgraded their Xpa1 Gen1 to Xpa1 Gen2. Do you have any gain in sound etc. when you upgraded to Gen2? Really the 60w class A from Gen2 will you get a better sound or anything?
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Post by garbulky on Oct 27, 2017 10:18:09 GMT -5
I haven't upgraded from gen 1 to 2. The class A mode has a switch. When it is in class AB mode you still get a good bit of class A but not 60 watts. Engaging the switch gets you the 60 watts. Also when it requires more than 60 watts the amp switches seamlessly back to class AB mdoe to deliver up to 1000 watts @ 4 ohms and then back to class A mode instantly when the power requirement goes below that.
The most important thing to know is that the class A mode isn't immediately obvious and it's reasonably subtle. Your setup plays a very important role in it. Even a small change from optimal can completely eliminate you from hearing any class A advantage at all. So the question isn't so much upgrading, it's is your setup including your speakers and room setup in such a way that it can show you that level of detail? Because if it's not I can guarantee you won't hear it. Spoken from personal experience in my room. I've altered certain things in my room and the advantage just vanishes because it's masked by the imperfections in my setup. I have to setup things carefully to benefit from class A.
So for example if you want to see if you may be able to hear the benefits of class A
Right now, can your setup show things in a 3 dimensional soundstage? Or is it just center, right and left? Can you hear instruments in precise locations around the soundstage? Like instruments behind one instrument or in front of another instrument? Do the instruments have a 3 dimensional body to them? As in they appear to occupy a physical space?
Does your setup have the ability to portray depth and room ambience to some degree? Like you can tell if it was recorded in a large space or a small room? Can you tell if any instrument is farther away?
If you answer no to most of these then likely you won't hear a difference in class A.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 27, 2017 17:30:03 GMT -5
You forgot to ask ... Do you live in a cold climate and need extra room heat in the winter?  |
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Post by leonski on Oct 27, 2017 18:15:29 GMT -5
No joke, AudioHTIT. A high bias design will really kick out some BTU.
It is video, not audio, but I can tell the difference between my OLD Plasma TV, @50" and my new, much more efficient OLED @65".
The heat kicked out by the Plasma was enought to help in winter and cause more AC usage in summer. And that's in the relatively benign climate of SoCal.
60 or 70lb of Mono sitting @ 90f or 100f will really put a dent in the AC bill.
Does anyone have any idle power readings for these amps?
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Post by garbulky on Oct 28, 2017 9:53:28 GMT -5
The gen 2 takes the edge off the cold weather in my living room
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Post by redcoat23 on Oct 28, 2017 16:39:21 GMT -5
I had both in my theater system on differently placed but identical speakers - there was slight different in gain structure between them, but it was really small -at least in my room. Speaker placement in the room was having a bigger effect than which generation of amp I was using. To be honest I wasn't using them in Class A - the switch was left in A/B. I've now moved to active 3 ways on the fronts (see sig) and my sides and rears are all running Gen 1 XPA's. My sides and rears are 104dB sensitive 4 Ohm speakers being supplied with 1kw each and from my perspective they sound just fine with Gen 1 |
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Post by leonski on Oct 28, 2017 16:51:40 GMT -5
I had both in my theater system on differently placed but identical speakers - there was slight different in gain structure between them, but it was really small -at least in my room. Speaker placement in the room was having a bigger effect than which generation of amp I was using. To be honest I wasn't using them in Class A - the switch was left in A/B. I've now moved to active 3 ways on the fronts (see sig) and my sides and rears are all running Gen 1 XPA's. My sides and rears are 104dB sensitive 4 Ohm speakers being supplied with 1kw each and from my perspective they sound just fine with Gen 1 Considering that with 104db sensitive speakers, you are using at most a couple watts and for +10db, using 10x the power, you could easily get by with a fraction of what the XPAs bring to the table. |
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Post by redcoat23 on Oct 28, 2017 17:05:36 GMT -5
But I didn't have to buy anything new. I had the amps already, I bought the speakers (networked versions) I just connected them. I don't feel the need to sell the amps to get something smaller. They work just fine as they are.
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Post by jimlazaro on Nov 1, 2017 23:56:25 GMT -5
Guys just arrived my Xpa1 gen2 and set it up on the floor(not in the shelves yet)
and switch to class A mode. After I spend 1 hour of music and normal volume I checked both amp and touch the top of the plate and it was hot. I'll check the A/B mode tomorrow and will see how it's goes.
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Post by leonski on Nov 2, 2017 12:20:44 GMT -5
What was your temp expectation? Do you have a way (Kill-A-Watt) to measure idle current?
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Post by jimlazaro on Nov 2, 2017 12:53:31 GMT -5
I have no idea the temp but all I know was when I hold the top, side of those amp was hot.
But I can still touch with my hand but never happen to my xpa1 gen1 this temp.
What is you asking about the idle? Sorry I'm newbies.
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Post by leonski on Nov 2, 2017 14:40:37 GMT -5
Current at idle is ALL heat. The reason I ask is the amp has a switch for A - A/B mode. When in 'A', the amp should draw a lot more current at idle. This is reflected in the 'bias' applied to the output devices. Again? This is ALL heat. When in 'A/B', the bias is a lot less and while the first few watts are probably still biased to 'A', the transition happens sooner (at lower power). In the A/B condition, the amp should run a LOT cooler at idle. The Kill-A-Watt meter is dirt cheap and will provide a way to get a handle on just How Much current draw is at idle. Than you can drop over to the 'efficiency' thread and enter YOUR data. As it turns out, an amp run in PURE class 'A' is very inefficient. A/B helps a lot but still rarely much over 55% or so. Some would claim higher. Also? With NO OUTPUT the efficiency is effectively ZERO. All power ends up as heat, anyway. One way or another. www.electronics-tutorials.ws/amplifier/class-ab-amplifier.htmlMore than you want to know about bias. But, try to follow along and you'll see why an 'A' amp has some theoretical advantages. Attached photo shows my Parasound A23 in-use. No heavy demand or very loud, but the IR shows where all the heat is coming from. Attachments:
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Post by garbulky on Nov 2, 2017 18:46:38 GMT -5
Guys just arrived my Xpa1 gen2 and set it up on the floor(not in the shelves yet) and switch to class A mode. After I spend 1 hour of music and normal volume I checked both amp and touch the top of the plate and it was hot. I'll check the A/B mode tomorrow and will see how it's goes. Your amps is functioning as it's supposed to. It's supposed to be hot in class A mode. That's what class A mode does. The amp uses something like 200 or more watts of power to be putting out 60 watts of class A ALL the time. So when the power is not used, it gets turned in to heat. Class A mode eliminates something called crossover notch distortion which is present in every sine wave the amp produces. It's present but very negligible in class AB but it's eliminated in class A. So that's the reason for class A. Exagerrated version of crossover notch distortion so you can see it  Normal sine wave without cross over notch distortion  But the question is how do they sound? |
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Post by jimlazaro on Nov 4, 2017 22:28:49 GMT -5
I did test and the A/B switch was cooler than the class A mode.
I made mistake that I sold my Xpa1 Gen1 and buy this more expensive Xpa1 gen2.
I love the sound of Xpa1 Gen1 on my ears than Gen2. I can't discribe what's the different but in my ears the Gen1 was better. I don't know who own the Xpa1 Gen2 agree on me. But for me from Gen1 to Gen2 I experience that. Well what can I do now I don't have my Gen1 now so be it what I have now.
So let me know if someone experience this.
If I can buy the Xpa1 gen1 I'll buy it again and I will sell this Gen2.
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Post by rbk123 on Nov 5, 2017 7:19:31 GMT -5
No worries. There will be more Gen 1's out there; just keep an eye out.
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Post by Porscheguy on Nov 5, 2017 9:01:57 GMT -5
I think all all high quality amplifiers sound the same no matter the brand and I've owned a few.. Subtle difference? Maybe, maybe not. Manufacturers have to keep reinventing themselves so you will continue to seek your endless quest for sonic perfection. It's called marketing.
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator 
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,490
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Post by LCSeminole on Nov 5, 2017 10:03:11 GMT -5
I think all all high quality amplifiers sound the same no matter the brand and I've owned a few.. Subtle difference? Maybe, maybe not. Manufacturers have to keep reinventing themselves so you will continue to seek your endless quest for sonic perfection. It's called marketing. Personally I'm in the camp of "I don't want an amplifier to do anything but amplify the signal that is being sent". Meaning, no coloring of the signal, or in other words, just plain neutral. |
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Post by garbulky on Nov 5, 2017 10:36:37 GMT -5
I did test and the A/B switch was cooler than the class A mode. I made mistake that I sold my Xpa1 Gen1 and buy this more expensive Xpa1 gen2. I love the sound of Xpa1 Gen1 on my ears than Gen2. I can't discribe what's the different but in my ears the Gen1 was better. I don't know who own the Xpa1 Gen2 agree on me. But for me from Gen1 to Gen2 I experience that. Well what can I do now I don't have my Gen1 now so be it what I have now. So let me know if someone experience this. If I can buy the Xpa1 gen1 I'll buy it again and I will sell this Gen2. feels the way you do. The gen 2 has a power supply tweak to it to make it measure better. But the main other difference other than the class A is that it has a lower gain - 29 db vs 32 db. This is a good thing because it lowers distortion a bit and it's the standard for THX. However it meas that receivers/preamps have to push it a bit harder to get the same volume. This shouldn't be a problem for most receivers on the market. One thing I will suggest is to PLAY WITH YOUR SPEAKER POSITION AND TOE IN. The gen 1 and gen 2 XPA-2 sounded different. Enough to warrant a slight speaker position and toe in change to get optimal sound. The other thing that I noticed that the gen 2 vs gen 1, the gen 1 was a bit more aggressive while the gen 2 was more neutral. What that means is that the gen 1 may come off having (slightly) more compressed sounding punchy bass/fullness. Imo it's not as good as gen 2 but you may be liking the sound. If after playing with the speaker position and toe in, you still don't like the sound, you will likely get lucky in trading in your xpa-1 gen 2 for a gen 1. There should be quite a few people willing to trade for ya. |
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Post by garbulky on Nov 5, 2017 10:48:26 GMT -5
I think all all high quality amplifiers sound the same no matter the brand and I've owned a few.. Subtle difference? Maybe, maybe not. Manufacturers have to keep reinventing themselves so you will continue to seek your endless quest for sonic perfection. It's called marketing. Personally I'm in the camp of "I don't want an amplifier to do anything but amplify the signal that is being sent". Meaning, no coloring of the signal, or in other words, just plain neutral. That would be ideal too for me with solid state amps. Except I've never heard an amp that hasn't colored the signal! I don't think it exists. They've all sounded different, relatively subtle but different. I think it has to be very tough to amplify a signal clearly in to a changing load like a speaker especially in to the magnitude of amplification. That's a tremendous increase in power an amp is called to do. I think it's amazing that they can do what they do already in to powers like a 1000 watts. As for tube amps though, I think they really should color the signal (in a good way) as that's the point. |
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,490
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Post by LCSeminole on Nov 5, 2017 10:53:46 GMT -5
Personally I'm in the camp of "I don't want an amplifier to do anything but amplify the signal that is being sent". Meaning, no coloring of the signal, or in other words, just plain neutral. That would be ideal too for me with solid state amps. Except I've never heard an amp that hasn't colored the signal! I don't think it exists. They've all sounded different, relatively subtle but different. I think it has to be very tough to amplify a signal clearly in to a changing load like a speaker especially in to the magnitude of amplification. That's a tremendous increase in power an amp is called to do. I think it's amazing that they can do what they do already in to powers like a 1000 watts. As for tube amps though, I think they really should color the signal (in a good way) as that's the point. I should've been more clear, I was referring to solid state amplifiers, as I don't own any tube amps. |
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