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Post by jeffreybehr on Jan 13, 2018 19:28:14 GMT -5
I know they're new, but I hope someone out there is enjoying one or two. I just ordered a 2.5, that is, with two mono and 5 stereo modules. I'll be using one mono module for my Revel C208 CC, biwired, and four of the stereo modules for eight surrounds and ceilings. One-each mono and stereo module are spares. (Only God knows when I'd be adding new pairs of speakers...  ...and the difference in price between one and two mono modules was only $200, so I simply couldn't resist.  ) Probably I'll remove the extra two modules until needed so as not to waste power and money.
My plan for this year is to have two PS Audio BHK 300 monoamps driving my biwired Vienna Acoustics Mahlers and the XPA3 driving the Revel CC and eight surrounds and ceiling speakers. I currently use a pair of five-channel Butler TDB 5150s driving the six channels of biamped Mahlers and Revel plus a pair of ceilings, and a humble Outlaw 7100 to drive 6 surrounds and ceilings.
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Post by leonski on Jan 13, 2018 23:46:24 GMT -5
What crossover are you using for your biamped Mahlers?
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Post by jeffreybehr on Jan 14, 2018 0:28:56 GMT -5
What crossover are you using for your biamped Mahlers?
...and the bass low-pass filter is on a separate board attached to the side of the cabinet. That board is fed full-range signal via the white-with-red-striped zipcord attached to the binding posts. I cut that jumper, insulated its four ends, added a six-times-16g. (= 8-1/4g.) cable, and ran that out the lower bass port so as not to alter the exterior of the speaker.
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Post by leonski on Jan 14, 2018 1:18:53 GMT -5
So you don't gain from biamping. I know 'cause i 'passively' biamp my panels, but have plans for a MiniDSP to go 'active'. All amps still must deal with full bandwidth signal.
Those inductors all oriented the same way interfere with one another. They should ALL be at right angles to one another, as much as possible.
I'd love to see that crossover schematic.
Ever considered a capacitor upgrade? Mundorf or maybe hi-line Clarity? Something along those lines?
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Post by garbulky on Jan 14, 2018 1:21:54 GMT -5
your setup probably sound marvelous!
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Post by jeffreybehr on Jan 14, 2018 3:32:49 GMT -5
So you don't gain from biamping. That's your opinion.I know 'cause i 'passively' biamp my panels, but have plans for a MiniDSP to go 'active'. All amps still must deal with full bandwidth signal. Wrong. The INPUT stages do, but they don't handle power. The output stages are bandwidth-limited by the increasing impedances of the crossover filters; they don't 'work harder' driving rising impedances, they simply push less power out.
Those inductors all oriented the same way interfere with one another. I'll be sure to tell the speaker's designer...NOT; he's been building these things for only decades. They should ALL be at right angles to one another, as much as possible. I'd love to see that crossover schematic. So would I from 'Mr. Vienna'; I have little confidence in the one I have.
Ever considered a capacitor upgrade? Mundorf or maybe hi-line Clarity? Something along those lines? Yes; I've replaced the 4uF tweeter-hi-pass caps with Jupiters, a 3.9uF paper-and-beeswax and a 0.22 Vintage CU-lead. Also thought about replacing the mostly-'lytic 310uF hi-pass caps into the MR and then actively filter that, as I've done on a couple other speakers' x-overs, but I don't expect to keep these long enough to justify it. The Mahlers have been improved as much as they're going to get. |
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Post by jeffreybehr on Jan 14, 2018 3:42:57 GMT -5
your setup probably sound marvelous!
I know what I'm about to post may read as simple gushing, but here's what I wrote to my friends last nite:
"It happened again tonite, that VERY rare confluence of sun, moon, stars, AC-power quality, mood, hearing-aid settings, etc….that caused the recording to sound SO much like the real thing that I got goosebumps many times, turned off the reading light, and sat and listened to the music and enjoyed it so much I repeated the last two movements. I was playing a multichannel SACD of the Grieg and Schumann piano concertos played excellently by Janne Mertanen and the Gavle Sym. O. conducted by Hannu Koivula, on ALBA SACD #ABCD 356:
www.amazon.com/Grieg-Schumann-Piano-Concertos/dp/B00IH0VAPY/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1515826899&sr=8-4&keywords=piano+concertos+mertanen
I know I gush too often, but I haven't experienced this for many months--certainly this is the first time with my newish, more-video-oriented system. I guess that Marantz A/V pre/pro, those Butler multichannel poweramps, and all those speaker systems and hundreds of feet of speakercable (to the surrounds and ceilings) finally meshed. :-) BTW this degree of transparency NEVER occurs playing CDs, only SACDs."
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Post by leonski on Jan 14, 2018 13:21:08 GMT -5
So you don't gain from biamping. That's your opinion.I know 'cause i 'passively' biamp my panels, but have plans for a MiniDSP to go 'active'. All amps still must deal with full bandwidth signal. Wrong. The INPUT stages do, but they don't handle power. The output stages are bandwidth-limited by the increasing impedances of the crossover filters; they don't 'work harder' driving rising impedances, they simply push less power out.
Those inductors all oriented the same way interfere with one another. I'll be sure to tell the speaker's designer...NOT; he's been building these things for only decades. They should ALL be at right angles to one another, as much as possible. I'd love to see that crossover schematic. So would I from 'Mr. Vienna'; I have little confidence in the one I have.
Ever considered a capacitor upgrade? Mundorf or maybe hi-line Clarity? Something along those lines? Yes; I've replaced the 4uF tweeter-hi-pass caps with Jupiters, a 3.9uF paper-and-beeswax and a 0.22 Vintage CU-lead. Also thought about replacing the mostly-'lytic 310uF hi-pass caps into the MR and then actively filter that, as I've done on a couple other speakers' x-overs, but I don't expect to keep these long enough to justify it. The Mahlers have been improved as much as they're going to get.Not exactly an opinion, but rather that you don't gain the POWER you might expect. amp still must deal with full bandwidth signal and that's the problem. IF you were to bandwidth limit the amps (active crossover, for example) you'd gain in 'apparent' amp power. That's my plan for my panels which can pretty miuch use as much clean power as my wallet could afford. I link PartI of the ESP article on biamping. He likes active but is less in favor of what you and I have both done. And when you start thinking about speaker crossovers, they ARE a mess. An Active crossover will restrict bandwidth to the amps and let 'em work where the load is. Don't forget that amp is still swinging the full voltage even IF it is 'rejected' by the crossover. sound.whsites.net/bi-amp.htmInductors couple. Right angle fields couple a LOT less. Simple physics. After all, an inductor is just 1/2 of a transformer. Now? How much does it REALLY matter? Without test you really can't quantify. Distance helps a lot. Even a few inches. I don't know if an advantage lies with aircore or ironcore of same value or if it doesnt' matter. I have some other notes I made when researching inductors for a crossover upgrade which don't apply here. Like optimum inductor SHAPE. Any way to check the schematic provided with what you see 'on the ground'? Upgrades might be eased by that knowledge, not just seeing some part on the board you want to replace. Good job with better caps. I hadn't thought any manufacturer would use 2% parts in a 'stock' crossover. And boy, what a 3rd rail topic. People seem to get real excited about capacitor choice. I remember just a few years ago, the big wave of 'Russian Teflon' or whatever swept thru crossover land. i think the new amp will be a plus, too. Same gain thruout will minimize later need for adjustment. Amp will also speak with 'one voice' which may also be noticeable. And you might be able to simplify your wiring, always a good thing. I heard the BHK amps at a show a few years ago, near introduction, and they were Fabulous. Paul was in a chipper mood and we spoke about various things for about 20 minutes. I've owned some PSAudio in the past and while not a fan of ICE amp based stuff, really liked the build quality and 'feel' of the gear. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jan 14, 2018 13:49:37 GMT -5
I love MY Butler amp, I hope you do too. Which model is that?
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Post by audiobill on Jan 14, 2018 18:14:41 GMT -5
Audiobill says inductors should be at right angles.....as does Vance Dickason.....
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Post by socketman on Jan 14, 2018 18:22:08 GMT -5
Just ordered a 6 channel mono , will be here in a couple weeks ill let ya know. Its replacing a gen1 XPA3 and i also have a Gen2 5 channel to compare it to. This is for my ATMOS thats way off in the future ,but i can use a couple channels for some midbass modules
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Post by leonski on Jan 14, 2018 19:45:08 GMT -5
Audiobill says inductors should be at right angles.....as does Vance Dickason..... One mitigating factor is that if the speaker is voiced and prototyped with inductors in what many people consider a 'wrong' configuration, than just go ahead and make 'em ALL that way. I'll admit to being both crazy and detail oriented beyond reason, so I have to be HONEST and question myself and ask just how BIG an effect such non-optimal inductor placment really has. Few persons are as nutty about inductors as I am to want equal number of layers of wire as windings. This makes a SQUARE cross section of inductor which is best for saturation and might even use the least amount of wire.....I'm unclear about the last, since I went thru a LOT of simulations when I was trying to design a new inductor for my Magnepans. If an inductor needs 14 'winds', it should also have 14 layers. And other parameters adjusted until you get to that point AND get the desired DCR and inductance value. They come with a 16ga iron core ot 0.40ohms DCR. I found a website to help me work thru the math and started recording my results. I found I could duplicate the inductance, keep the DCR within 5% AND go aircore with a heavier wire. This would ELIMINATE any chance of saturation at the very highest power levels which a Magnepan can operate. |
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Post by audiobill on Jan 14, 2018 19:49:36 GMT -5
Or just call the pros at Madisound lol!!!
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jan 14, 2018 20:13:14 GMT -5
Leonski is correct. The optimal mounting for inductors in a crossover are at right angles to each other.
Russ
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Post by jeffreybehr on Jan 14, 2018 20:27:11 GMT -5
I love MY Butler amp, I hope you do too. Which model is that? TDB 5150. I bought the first locally while waiting for one or two TDB 2250s; my goal was to biamp the Mahlers. But then the '5150 sounded so good initially single-amping the two Mahlers, I bought another (thru A'gon). They together sound so good with the slightly improved Mahlers (see the 'It happened again last nite...' thread), I considered keeping and improving each (one channel of each with better powersupply caps, etc.). But I'm now set on buying a pair of PSA BHK 300s so I'll be selling the Butlers some time this spring/summer. I've ordered an XPA Gen3 model 2.5 for driving the CC and now-four pairs of surrounds and ceilings and having one-each spare mono and stereo amp-module. So the plan is two BHK 300s single-amping the Mahlers and one XPA Gen3 single-amping the CC and four pairs of surrounds/ceilings.   I think one channel is dead in one amp so I'll be sending that to Butler for repair and check-out. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 14, 2018 21:00:40 GMT -5
Not familiar with Butler and never heard any at a show.
But it DOES look well done and I especially like that Toroid / PS on one side with what appear to be well heat-sinked modules.
Since I'm a stereo guy, my Dream Amp has either been a brace of Pass Labs XA series (2 stereo or 4 mono) or a couple of the MagTech amps. I heard the last at
a show driving Sanders ElectroStats. Impressive.
The MagTech also has, for non-Stat speakers, a highly regulated PS which produces a very stable output voltage without sag or bias modulation problems.
It would be interesting to find listeners who have heard both the Butler 5-channel and the roughly 2x more powerful Parasound A-51 which also goes for around 3 K$.
Just a thought.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jan 15, 2018 9:30:17 GMT -5
Yep, I'm using a 5150 as well. Great amp. Interestingly, I also lost a channel after about a year, and BK repaired it for only the cost of shipping with no questions asked.
re: inductors. The optimal way to mount inductors in a crossover network is so that the magnetic fields they produce cannot interact or so that the planes of the field are not aligned so that any interaction is not in phase. There are many ways to accomplish this. Normally the easiest for a DIY is to place them at right angles to one another, but this is only one technique. There is no magic rule that states this method is required. Also, this mostly impacts larger higher-power air core inductors; small inductors, those seeing low power (such as those used in high frequency parts of the network) and metal core inductors are much less susceptible to magnetic interference from another coil since their fields are much smaller.
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...and the difference in price between one and two mono modules was only $200, so I simply couldn't resist. 
) Probably I'll remove the extra two modules until needed so as not to waste power and money. 
