|
Post by emofrmcgy on Feb 19, 2018 16:52:03 GMT -5
hardly character as behind the curve? you have to be kidding right? by the time the xmc (which is supposed to be the last processor you need for 15 years) finally gets the ability to decode the latest codecs Atmos will have been out in the home for close to 3.5 years...I would say that is WAY behind the curve...and very late to the party... You keep missing the point. Dolby Atmos is a niche market item that is used by almost NO ONE when compared to mainstream home theater installations. The idea that a processor is behind the curve because it’s not object based audio equipped is absolutely ludicrous. Plenty of those are out in the field, if you want one. Bill It’s not as niche as the small group on this board keeps saying it is. This has been argued to death here and it’s always the same 12 people saying atmos is useless and not worthwhile but the group of people asking for Emotiva to step up seems to be growing by the day.
|
|
|
Post by doc1963 on Feb 19, 2018 17:20:00 GMT -5
hardly character as behind the curve? you have to be kidding right? by the time the xmc (which is supposed to be the last processor you need for 15 years) finally gets the ability to decode the latest codecs Atmos will have been out in the home for close to 3.5 years...I would say that is WAY behind the curve...and very late to the party... You keep missing the point. Dolby Atmos is a niche market item that is used by almost NO ONE when compared to mainstream home theater installations. The idea that a processor is behind the curve because it’s not object based audio equipped is absolutely ludicrous. Plenty of those are out in the field, if you want one. Bill I have to disagree. Although I'm currently not set up for Atmos (and don't know that I ever will be), for the market in which the XMC-1 competes, Atmos is not what I consider to be a "niche". I would tend to believe that anyone looking for an AVP at this price point would favor (and expect) Atmos capability over, let's say, support for native DSD. At this price point, some things are a given. Support for 4K UHD, HDR (including "Dynamic HDR") and immersive surround audio are among them. Agree or not, but he XMC-1 is very late to the game on all three points. When I bought my XMC-1 (August, 2014), none of those were in my wheelhouse (or on my radar), but times have changed faster than the XMC-1 could keep pace. If we were talking about a $750 AVR, then yes, I would tend to agree with your point. But then again, that's the market that truly defines "mainstream" audio. The XMC-1 is considered to be a "multi-channel processor for the audiophile". I would think that anyone who cares about quality of sound would also tend to consider immersive surround if his (or her) environment can accommodate the setup. Just my $.02...
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Feb 19, 2018 17:24:59 GMT -5
You keep missing the point. Dolby Atmos is a niche market item that is used by almost NO ONE when compared to mainstream home theater installations. The idea that a processor is behind the curve because it’s not object based audio equipped is absolutely ludicrous. Plenty of those are out in the field, if you want one. Bill It’s not as niche as the small group on this board keeps saying it is. This has been argued to death here and it’s always the same 12 people saying atmos is useless and not worthwhile but the group of people asking for Emotiva to step up seems to be growing by the day. Well, I cannot speak for anyone here and the stats come from outside this forum, but it’s 💯 to one....Meaning One properly configured Dolby Atmos system, with properly installed, overheads, not upward firing speakers, compared to the majority of installs which are 5.1. Of course there are ALL the variants in between with greater number of channels, but were just talking about the main numbers. I don’t know where “useless” comes from with respect to Atmos. Not I.....A properly configured Atmos system, coupled with the right source material (I own 4 or 5 Atmos discs myself) could be killer, but not enough to give me the urge to jump ship 🚢 on all I’ve done to go for it. Once AGAIN I return to the original premise and complaint about ATMOS, which was its release colliding with the release of the non Atmos XMC. Bill
|
|
|
Post by musicfan on Feb 19, 2018 17:36:48 GMT -5
hardly character as behind the curve? you have to be kidding right? by the time the xmc (which is supposed to be the last processor you need for 15 years) finally gets the ability to decode the latest codecs Atmos will have been out in the home for close to 3.5 years...I would say that is WAY behind the curve...and very late to the party... You keep missing the point. Dolby Atmos is a niche market item that is used by almost NO ONE when compared to mainstream home theater installations. The idea that a processor is behind the curve because it’s not object based audio equipped is absolutely ludicrous. Plenty of those are out in the field, if you want one. Bill Then why does EVERY processor from entry level Ht to high end from all the main AVR companies now have Atmos in it? And why is Emotiva all of a sudden ton board with Atmos? Because it’s becoming the standard. Don’t hate on it cause it’s not what you want. I’m not missing the point. You are because you are not willing to stay with the current formats. Home theater in general (not sound bars) is niche if you want to take that angle.
|
|
|
Post by emofrmcgy on Feb 19, 2018 17:42:04 GMT -5
It’s not as niche as the small group on this board keeps saying it is. This has been argued to death here and it’s always the same 12 people saying atmos is useless and not worthwhile but the group of people asking for Emotiva to step up seems to be growing by the day. Well, I cannot speak for anyone here and the stats come from outside this forum, but it’s 💯 to one....Meaning One properly configured Dolby Atmos system, with properly installed, overheads, not upward firing speakers, compared to the majority of installs which are 5.1. Of course there are ALL the variants in between with greater number of channels, but were just talking about the main numbers. I don’t know where “useless” comes from with respect to Atmos. Not I.....A properly configured Atmos system, coupled with the right source material (I own 4 or 5 Atmos discs myself) could be killer, but not enough to give me the urge to jump ship 🚢 on all I’ve done to go for it. Once AGAIN I return to the original premise and complaint about ATMOS, which was its release colliding with the release of the non Atmos XMC. Bill Point me to the stats that you quote please. Why can’t upward firing speakers make for a good atmos setup? Where are you seeing the majority of installs only being 5.1? The xmc is at the $2500 and above price point show me another device that makes the claims emo does about the xmc that DOESN’T have atmos at this price point. I’m just trying to understand your points. So please help me.
|
|
LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,495
|
Post by LCSeminole on Feb 19, 2018 18:11:17 GMT -5
You keep missing the point. Dolby Atmos is a niche market item that is used by almost NO ONE when compared to mainstream home theater installations. The idea that a processor is behind the curve because it’s not object based audio equipped is absolutely ludicrous. Plenty of those are out in the field, if you want one. Bill I have to disagree. Although I'm currently not set up for Atmos (and don't know that I ever will be), for the market in which the XMC-1 competes, Atmos is not what I consider to be a "niche". I would tend to believe that anyone looking for an AVP at this price point would favor (and expect) Atmos capability over, let's say, support for native DSD. At this price point, some things are a given. Support for 4K UHD, HDR (including "Dynamic HDR") and immersive surround audio are among them. Agree or not, but he XMC-1 is very late to the game on all three points. When I bought my XMC-1 (August, 2014), none of those were in my wheelhouse (or on my radar), but times have changed faster than the XMC-1 could keep pace. If we were talking about a $750 AVR, then yes, I would tend to agree with your point. But then again, that's the market that truly defines "mainstream" audio. The XMC-1 is considered to be a "multi-channel processor for the audiophile". I would think that anyone who cares about quality of sound would also tend to consider immersive surround if his (or her) environment can accommodate the setup. Just my $.02... While I would tend to agree that at this moment that the XMC-1 is behind the curve a bit "on the latest technology" curve, I would be more than willing to bet that the true numbers of those that have Immersive Audio capability built in to their pre-pro/receiver and actually using it in over-head ceiling speakers are a small percentage. So in this way, I personally call it a NICHE market. I actually have climbed into my attic to see if immersive channels in my ceiling would be a prudent move. I happen to have a cathedral ceiling in my living room where my home theater is set up, and I could manage a 7.2.4 immersive sound setup, but to what expense & effort and would it really be worth it to me. My conclusion is still no, I won't be going this route, and I've now heard several proper immersive audio setups. Just to have it for the occasional movie that takes advantage of this just doesn't cut it for me, though maybe it will if I have plenty of disposable income and I'm able to be in on the building of a new home, so thus not ever ruling it out. I just wonder what the Lounge will have to argue about when the upgraded audio and video boards are available, the RMC-1 and XMC-1 Gen3, and XMR receiver are shipping. Will Marantz/Denon/Sony/Onkyo then be behind the curve when they don't offer DIRAC on all channels including the ceiling channels? Will it really matter, especially to those that are already happy with what they have? .....and Doc, just to be clear, I'm not calling ATMOS/DTS:X a niche feature, just the overall market of those taking advantage of this feature in their capable pre-pro/receivers.
|
|
|
Post by musicfan on Feb 19, 2018 18:15:25 GMT -5
DIRAC isn’t the standard so no. They won’t be behind he curve. And room correction is not a codec and necessary to experience the movie as intended.
Again I find it comical that all these “audiophiles” that MUST have music the way it was recorded but will alter movie soundtracks without blinking an eye despite it being not what the director intended.
And if you are buying a 2500$+ processor you have PLENTY of disposable income
|
|
LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,495
|
Post by LCSeminole on Feb 19, 2018 18:23:06 GMT -5
Well, I cannot speak for anyone here and the stats come from outside this forum, but it’s 💯 to one....Meaning One properly configured Dolby Atmos system, with properly installed, overheads, not upward firing speakers, compared to the majority of installs which are 5.1. Of course there are ALL the variants in between with greater number of channels, but were just talking about the main numbers. I don’t know where “useless” comes from with respect to Atmos. Not I.....A properly configured Atmos system, coupled with the right source material (I own 4 or 5 Atmos discs myself) could be killer, but not enough to give me the urge to jump ship 🚢 on all I’ve done to go for it. Once AGAIN I return to the original premise and complaint about ATMOS, which was its release colliding with the release of the non Atmos XMC. Bill Point me to the stats that you quote please. Why can’t upward firing speakers make for a good atmos setup? Where are you seeing the majority of installs only being 5.1? The xmc is at the $2500 and above price point show me another device that makes the claims emo does about the xmc that DOESN’T have atmos at this price point. I’m just trying to understand your points. So please help me. I've seen polls on a few websites that have indeed shown immersive sound to be a niche in it's actual usage. No I can't at this moment find those polls, but when I do find them I'll be sure to come back and post a link. Yes at this time, technology is going to include this, and lets face it once something is mainstream, it's cheaper to just include it in the DSP, whether the end-user is going to use it or not, no different than many other long-forgotten features that were the latest greatest that have now gone by the wayside. As for "upward firing speakers", go out and demo some and give us a review. I've heard them and they are just plain underwhelming, period.
|
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,938
|
Post by KeithL on Feb 19, 2018 18:28:25 GMT -5
As of three years ago, surround sound modes with 7.1 and more channels had been available for many years, yet around 2/3 of installed systems still only used 5.1 channels. That has increased somewhat since then, but a lot of people still only have 5.1 systems - for many reasons. Some have a lot invested in their 5.1 system and have no interest in upgrading it. Others have a small room, or they simply don't see a real benefit in doing so. (Not everyone even likes surround sound at all.) The same holds true for Atmos. Some people find it incredibly wondrous; others simply don't find it especially appealing. And some simply prefer not to spend the extra money.... or don't believe it will deliver much benefit in their listening room. From what I've heard, some people have had good results with upward-firing speakers, but they are very particular about the shape of the room and its acoustics. Upward firing speakers work best with a flat ceiling that is some distance above the listener. If the ceiling is too low, the reflections don't seem to come from above; if it's too high, all you end up with is an echo chamber. And arched or cathedral ceilings don't work well at all (the effect relies on the ceiling reflecting the sound more or less as a flat mirror would). We do not, and have never, "opposed" Atmos. However, our priority is sound quality, so we stress sound quality as a development priority - over delivering all the latest features as soon as we can. (Perhaps, making that list of features as long as possible, and keeping it as current as possible, is more important for products that are sold based on their feature list rather than on how they sound. ) To be brutally honest, we don't think there are other products out there that include Atmos, and that also sound as good as the XMC-1, at anywhere near it's price. To be honest, we don't think there are products out there that sound as good as the XMC-1 at anywhere near its price point with or without Atmos. (And we assume that, if you could find one, you would buy it instead..... but we're not especially worried on that score. ) Well, I cannot speak for anyone here and the stats come from outside this forum, but it’s 💯 to one....Meaning One properly configured Dolby Atmos system, with properly installed, overheads, not upward firing speakers, compared to the majority of installs which are 5.1. Of course there are ALL the variants in between with greater number of channels, but were just talking about the main numbers. I don’t know where “useless” comes from with respect to Atmos. Not I.....A properly configured Atmos system, coupled with the right source material (I own 4 or 5 Atmos discs myself) could be killer, but not enough to give me the urge to jump ship 🚢 on all I’ve done to go for it. Once AGAIN I return to the original premise and complaint about ATMOS, which was its release colliding with the release of the non Atmos XMC. Bill Point me to the stats that you quote please. Why can’t upward firing speakers make for a good atmos setup? Where are you seeing the majority of installs only being 5.1? The xmc is at the $2500 and above price point show me another device that makes the claims emo does about the xmc that DOESN’T have atmos at this price point. I’m just trying to understand your points. So please help me.
|
|
LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,495
|
Post by LCSeminole on Feb 19, 2018 18:28:38 GMT -5
DIRAC isn’t the standard so no. They won’t be behind he curve. And room correction is not a codec and necessary to experience the movie as intended. Again I find it comical that all these “audiophiles” that MUST have music the way it was recorded but will alter movie soundtracks without blinking an eye despite it being not what the director intended. And if you are buying a 2500$+ processor you have PLENTY of disposable income The director intended for it to be perfect in the studio in which it was being mixed and mastered, as well as the so-called fully room treated theater that it premiered in. I have neither of these, so room correction and treatments in my definitely not-so perfect room environment will have to suffice on my limited budget.
|
|
|
Post by musicfan on Feb 19, 2018 18:35:57 GMT -5
DIRAC isn’t the standard so no. They won’t be behind he curve. And room correction is not a codec and necessary to experience the movie as intended. Again I find it comical that all these “audiophiles” that MUST have music the way it was recorded but will alter movie soundtracks without blinking an eye despite it being not what the director intended. And if you are buying a 2500$+ processor you have PLENTY of disposable income The director intended for it to be perfect in the studio in which it was being mixed and mastered, as well as the so-called fully room treated theater that it premiered in. I have neither of these, so room correction and treatments in my definitely not-so perfect room environment will have to suffice on my limited budget. That’s not the point Any audiophool will do as much as they can to get as close as possible. But apparently not when it comes to movies. Pretty hypocritical if you ask me
|
|
LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,495
|
Post by LCSeminole on Feb 19, 2018 18:39:25 GMT -5
The director intended for it to be perfect in the studio in which it was being mixed and mastered, as well as the so-called fully room treated theater that it premiered in. I have neither of these, so room correction and treatments in my definitely not-so perfect room environment will have to suffice on my limited budget. That’s not the point Any audiophool will do as much as they can to get as close as possible. But apparently not when it comes to movies. Pretty hypocritical if you ask me Not the point? Those were your words, not mine. I feel like I'm answering a moving target at this point. I'm out.
|
|
|
Post by musicfan on Feb 19, 2018 19:06:04 GMT -5
That’s not the point Any audiophool will do as much as they can to get as close as possible. But apparently not when it comes to movies. Pretty hypocritical if you ask me Not the point? Those were your words, not mine. I feel like I'm answering a moving target at this point. I'm out. What I meant is just YOU can’t afford more isn’t the point It’s the othe so called audiophiles that will stop at nothing for exact music in 2 channel art. But as soon as that audio art is in movie soundtrack form. It becomes eh. It’s only a niche product.
|
|
|
Post by creimes on Feb 19, 2018 19:37:22 GMT -5
You keep missing the point. Dolby Atmos is a niche market item that is used by almost NO ONE when compared to mainstream home theater installations. The idea that a processor is behind the curve because it’s not object based audio equipped is absolutely ludicrous. Plenty of those are out in the field, if you want one. Bill Then why does EVERY processor from entry level Ht to high end from all the main AVR companies now have Atmos in it? And why is Emotiva all of a sudden ton board with Atmos? Because it’s becoming the standard. Don’t hate on it cause it’s not what you want. I’m not missing the point. You are because you are not willing to stay with the current formats. Home theater in general (not sound bars) is niche if you want to take that angle. Because they need to sell you new electronics, how long have you been into audio, do you not know the game yet, I'm not saying Atmos isn't worth it as I don't have it but I've been into audio/video long enough to know the sales strategies. The latest greatest is just around the corner haha Chad
|
|
|
Post by enricoclaudio on Feb 19, 2018 19:44:39 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure I'm going to gain a lot of haters, but I found Atmos just to be a gimmick if not implemented correctly. With all the fuzz about Atmos and the soon to be released Atmos board upgrade for the XMC-1 I decided to try it myself in my bedroom before making an investment. For us XMC-1 owners, getting Atmos is not cheap. In my case it can go up to $2100 (4 x speakers + External amp + Atmos upgrade board).
In my condo I can't do ceiling speakers because of fire code restrictions. So, I did try it in my bedroom with a Marantz NR1606, which is Atmos ready and got the two speaker options available: for high wall speakers I got a pair of SVS Prime Elevation and for up firing modules, got a pair of PSB Imagine XA. Tried the Prime Elevation first and got mixed results/feelings. I got several Atmos Blue Ray discs (It, Blade Runner 2049, Hacksaw Ridge and San Andreas) that have been proven to be among the best for immersive audio testing. With the Prime Elevation the sound was too directional. I knew the sound was coming from the front wall even the speakers were placed right at the top of the wall. I have 9 ft ceilings so it's ideal for Atmos effect. After a few hours I knew that those were not the right speakers. Put them back in the box and shipped back to Amazon.
Then ordered a pair of PSB Imagine XA Atmos modules from Crutchfield, got them, ran Audyssey and after listening for a few hours to different scenes from the 4 movies, I found that the sound was a bit more 3D, definitely better than with the Prime Elevation speakers but still not enough convincing. I had to increase the volume on the receiver for the Atmos speakers (+5dB) to get the bouncing effect but then the sound coming from the speaker itself was too obvious/distracting.
So, my final test was to measure how much time the Atmos speakers are active during a movie. Played San Andreas, which is an awful movie but according to many one of the best for Atmos testing and unplugged all the speakers but the Atmos speakers. Which is not the same as turning off the speakers on the receiver. What I discovered was shocking. During the first 25 mins of San Andreas, the Atmos speakers were active for less than 1 min. After doing some reasoning, I decided to send the PSB speakers back to Crutchfield.
I couldn't justify investing $2100 just to get 5 mins out of 120 mins of additional information. For those able to get/install ceiling speakers and no need to upgrade or purchase extra components, Atmos could be a nice addition. I know customers and friends that did get Atmos with less than $500. In my case, I did my research/testing and the results said clearly to me that it's not worth the investment. I do prefer to put that $$$ in a Sony OLED 55A1E for my bedroom or in a JVC RS540 for my living room.
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Feb 19, 2018 19:45:50 GMT -5
Don’t hate on it cause it’s not what you want. “ Your words not mine....this is now a waste of time
|
|
|
Post by emofrmcgy on Feb 19, 2018 19:46:01 GMT -5
Then why does EVERY processor from entry level Ht to high end from all the main AVR companies now have Atmos in it? And why is Emotiva all of a sudden ton board with Atmos? Because it’s becoming the standard. Don’t hate on it cause it’s not what you want. I’m not missing the point. You are because you are not willing to stay with the current formats. Home theater in general (not sound bars) is niche if you want to take that angle. Because they need to sell you new electronics, how long have you been into audio, do you not know the game yet, I'm not saying Atmos isn't worth it as I don't have it but I've been into audio/video long enough to know the sales strategies. The latest greatest is just around the corner haha Chad It’s because no other company cares about sound quality.
|
|
|
Post by davidl81 on Feb 19, 2018 20:20:39 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure I'm going to gain a lot of haters, but I found Atmos just to be a gimmick if not implemented correctly. With all the fuzz about Atmos and the soon to be released Atmos board upgrade for the XMC-1 I decided to try it myself in my bedroom before making an investment. For us XMC-1 owners, getting Atmos is not cheap. In my case it can go up to $2100 (4 x speakers + External amp + Atmos upgrade board). In my condo I can't do ceiling speakers because of fire code restrictions. So, I did try it in my bedroom with a Marantz NR1606, which is Atmos ready and got the two speaker options available: for high wall speakers I got a pair of SVS Prime Elevation and for up firing modules, got a pair of PSB Imagine XA. Tried the Prime Elevation first and got mixed results/feelings. I got several Atmos Blue Ray discs (It, Blade Runner 2049, Hacksaw Ridge and San Andreas) that have been proven to be among the best for immersive audio testing. With the Prime Elevation the sound was too directional. I knew the sound was coming from the front wall even the speakers were placed right at the top of the wall. I have 9 ft ceilings so it's ideal for Atmos effect. After a few hours I knew that those were not the right speakers. Put them back in the box and shipped back to Amazon. Then ordered a pair of PSB Imagine XA Atmos modules from Crutchfield, got them, ran Audyssey and after listening for a few hours to different scenes from the 4 movies, I found that the sound was a bit more 3D, definitely better than with the Prime Elevation speakers but still not enough convincing. I had to increase the volume on the receiver for the Atmos speakers (+5dB) to get the bouncing effect but then the sound coming from the speaker itself was too obvious/distracting. So, my final test was to measure how much time the Atmos speakers are active during a movie. Played San Andreas, which is an awful movie but according to many one of the best for Atmos testing and unplugged all the speakers but the Atmos speakers. Which is not the same as turning off the speakers on the receiver. What I discovered was shocking. During the first 25 mins of San Andreas, the Atmos speakers were active for less than 1 min. After doing some reasoning, I decided to send the PSB speakers back to Crutchfield. I couldn't justify investing $2100 just to get 5 mins out of 120 mins of additional information. For those able to get/install ceiling speakers and no need to upgrade or purchase extra components, Atmos could be a nice addition. I know customers and friends that did get Atmos with less than $500. In my case, I did my research/testing and the results said clearly to me that it's not worth the investment. I do prefer to put that $$$ in a Sony OLED 55A1E for my bedroom or in a JVC RS540 for my living room. I think he prime market for Atmos will be new installs/builds. It’s so much easier to just get the extra speakers and buy amps with the extra channels as you are planning your install. The people who already have 5.1 or 7.1 setups really have to look at a cost benefit analysis on upgrading to Atmos. Luckily for me when I had the house built Atmos was first coming out so I went ahead and wired everything for 7.2.4 and made equipment selections based on that. (Of course I’ve already changed amps several times but that’s neither here nor there). As for the XMC-1 I have been really wanting to upgrade from my Marantz to a better unit, but I will only look at Atmos units since that’s what I have now. With the RMC coming out soon I can wait for that.
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Feb 19, 2018 21:44:27 GMT -5
Am I the only person who can expound on the advantages of Atmos in a 5.1 system? Yes, that's right, no ceiling speakers. No bouncing off the ceiling speakers either. Just a 5.1 system playing the Atmos sound track. It's way better than the Dolby True HD track, with more accurate placement, distinct and locatable.
DTSX is even more so, giving us the ability to control the dialogue volume, which is a whole lot better than centre channel attempts.
If you think Amtos/DTSX is all about ceiling speakers, you are missing one of their biggest advantages in the mixing using object oriented sound. If you want to stick with your 5.1 systems go for it, but don't dismiss Amtos/DTSX, you will be missing out.
Cheers Gary
|
|
|
Post by emofrmcgy on Feb 19, 2018 21:52:40 GMT -5
Am I the only person who can expound on the advantages of Atmos in a 5.1 system? Yes, that's right, no ceiling speakers. No bouncing off the ceiling speakers either. Just a 5.1 system playing the Atmos sound track. It's way better than the Dolby True HD track, with more accurate placement, distinct and locatable. DTSX is even more so, giving us the ability to control the dialogue volume, which is a whole lot better than centre channel attempts. If you think Amtos/DTSX is all about ceiling speakers, you are missing one of their biggest advantages in the mixing using object oriented sound. If you want to stick with your 5.1 systems go for it, but don't dismiss Amtos/DTSX, you will be missing out. Cheers Gary Yes you are because no one else has hardware to decode the track.
|
|