UMC200, Analog 7.1+HDMI, Direct Mode, ADC? exaSound e38? :)

[ronkuper]

Hi Folks,

I plan on buying an 8ch DAC (exaSound e38) and connect it to the UMC-200 analog 7.1 inputs. 

1. Will I be able to use it as a 7.1 audio source for an HDMI video signal (I guess yes, as "Analog EXT" in the HDMI source settings)?

2. Will the UMC-200 perform ADC (nullifying many of the e38 benefits) to the analog 7.1 inputs if set to 'Direct Mode'?
 
3. Currently, with HDMI input, using "Direct Mode" disables the subwoofer even for multi-channel content. Will that be the case for the Analog EXT 7.1 input?  

4. Anything else I should consider?

5. As a side note - would you suggest using the e38 budget (~$4K) to upgrade something else from my setup (in sig, I care mostly for Music SQ.)?

Thanks,
Ron

[Gary Cook]

Hi Ron, quick observations;
Does the exaSound e38 have room correction, if not then you either have no room correction or you use the UMC-200 for it which means ADC then correction then DAC in the UMC-200.
Does the exaSound e38 have bass management, if not then you either have no sub woofer control or you use the UMC-200 for it which means ADC then bass management then DAC in the UMC-200.
Do you really need 8 channels for music? I haven't found any music with more than 5.1.
Since the exaSound e38 has a Sabre DAC implementation, I'd strongly suggest you audition one at some length in your set up. Some people like some Sabre DAC implementations and some people don't like some Sabre DAC implementations.

An alternative, if you like SABRE DAC implementations, would be an Oppo 205 for less than half the cost. If you don't like SABRE DAC implementations, then an XMC-1 would be a great alternative for 25% less cost.

Cheers
Gary

[ronkuper]

Thanks Gary!

In reply to your observations: 

RC & BM:
I have Room Correction and Bass Management, in software from my PC (Dirac Live, Roon's DSP and soon convolution-based FIR filters).

In fact, while I do have some nice mch content, the main motivation for doing multi-channel is for Stereo with BM&RC in software (I do this today with HDMI to my UMC-200).
You see, if RC is done in software, for stereo music, the subwoofer channel (.1) should be created before the Room correction (BM before RC). 
Otherwise if the UMC-200 would get 2ch and create the Subwoofer channel that means Dirac didn't apply it's filters to the SW channel. 

Bottom line - I use my PC today to handle all filters, upsampling, volume, decoding in software and output everything in PCM.

I don't need/want any DSP functions from the downstream devices and would like keeping it this way. It is my hobby, flexible/future proof and I'm of the opinion that the potential SQ is higher for DSPs functions done in software, without processing power limitation compared to most hardware DSPs (HQPlayer upsampling is one good example). 


Oppo-205
I was eyeballing it as part of the scouting but it's USB connection is only 2 channels.
HDMI Audio Jitter (I dunno regarding how audible is it, but that's the thing right?) is among my motivations to switch to an async USB DAC. 


XMC-1
Of course being an Emo customer I'm familiar with it and was hoping it would be mentioned here for discussion.
I don't know regarding the USB connection, does it have an async multi-channel USB DAC? 

My base feeling is that the cost there be distributed across features and connections I don't need/already have compared to the e38 where the focus is solely on SQ for the USB DAC. Plus it is rather big in size. 

If I would've known for sure that I won't hear a difference between it and the e38 I would probably go for it. Cost less and gives much more. 


UMC-200: Back to the original question which I hope to get an answer to:
Assuming I don't need any of the unit's DSP's functions and that filters, RC, BM, decoding, etc are already handled upstream by software on my PC,
Is it possible to use the Analog EXT 7.1 as an audio source for the HDMI video, without it undergoing ADC internally?





 

[KeithL]

As I recall, the 7.1 channel analog input on the UMC-200 is analog ONLY... and is always in "direct mode".
(So, NO conversion, NO ADC, NO bass management.)

Feb 27, 2018 2:02:31 GMT -5 ronkuper said:

Thanks Gary!

In reply to your observations: 

RC & BM:
I have Room Correction and Bass Management, in software from my PC (Dirac Live, Roon's DSP and soon convolution-based FIR filters).

In fact, while I do have some nice mch content, the main motivation for doing multi-channel is for Stereo with BM&RC in software (I do this today with HDMI to my UMC-200).
You see, if RC is done in software, for stereo music, the subwoofer channel (.1) should be created before the Room correction (BM before RC). 
Otherwise if the UMC-200 would get 2ch and create the Subwoofer channel that means Dirac didn't apply it's filters to the SW channel. 

Bottom line - I use my PC today to handle all filters, upsampling, volume, decoding in software and output everything in PCM.

I don't need/want any DSP functions from the downstream devices and would like keeping it this way. It is my hobby, flexible/future proof and I'm of the opinion that the potential SQ is higher for DSPs functions done in software, without processing power limitation compared to most hardware DSPs (HQPlayer upsampling is one good example). 


Oppo-205
I was eyeballing it as part of the scouting but it's USB connection is only 2 channels.
HDMI Audio Jitter (I dunno regarding how audible is it, but that's the thing right?) is among my motivations to switch to an async USB DAC. 


XMC-1
Of course being an Emo customer I'm familiar with it and was hoping it would be mentioned here for discussion.
I don't know regarding the USB connection, does it have an async multi-channel USB DAC? 

My base feeling is that the cost there be distributed thinly across features and connections I don't need/already have compared to the e38 where the focus is solely on SQ for the USB DAC. Plus it is rather big in size. 

If I would've known for sure that I won't hear a difference between it and the e38 I would probably go for it, just to save some bucks and get more value. 


UMC-200: Back to the original question which I hope to get an answer to:
Assuming I don't need any of the unit's DSP's functions and that filters, RC, BM, decoding, etc are already handled upstream by software on my PC,
Is it possible to use the Analog EXT 7.1 as an audio source for the HDMI video, without it undergoing ADC internally?





 

[ronkuper]

Thank you, Keith!

[Gary Cook]

I'm still curious, why do you need an 8 channel DAC?

Cheers
Gary

[ronkuper]

Hi Gary,

I use multi-channel for these reasons, in order of importance to me: 

1. Stereo music with software Room Correction
2. Movies
3. Multi-Channel Music 

All are sourced from an HTPC with software (Roon, HQPlayer, Dirac Live) for DSP functions (Bass Management, Upsampling and Room Correction).

Since I assume reasons 2 and 3 (which are valid reasons for multi-channel on their own) are self-explanatory, I'll describe the 1st reason in a bit more details: 

1. I use my PC for Room Correction. 
2. I want to use a Subwoofer for Stereo content (I listen to a lot of bass heavy EDM/Techno tracks)
3. Using a Sub with Stereo content requires the creation of the Subwoofer channel with Bass Management/Crossover. 
4. In order for the Room Correction software (Dirac Live in my case) to tune the Subwoofer channel according to the Subwoofer's measurements, the Subwoofer channel must be created before Room Correction, otherwise, it will "see" and tune only the 2 channels for the mains. 
5. That means that the 2.0 to 2.1 conversion is happening before the signal leaves the PC, which requires multi-channel (3 channels for Stereo)

That's for Multi-Channel per se, which I get really nicely today from the UMC-200 using HDMI from the PC. 
As for why I need a Multi-Channel DAC... Well, I fear I am much less confident that I actually do and not simply a victim of the consumer audio industry mambo jumbo  
I've educated myself on jitter, the audio clock issues of HDMI and theoretical qualities of a good async DAC... but to say I'm confident it would be audible to me with my system is a stretch... One that I'm itching to scratch  

[Gary Cook]

Feb 27, 2018 16:10:11 GMT -5 ronkuper said:

Hi Gary,
I use multi-channel for these reasons, in order of importance to me: 
1. Stereo music with software Room Correction
2. Movies
3. Multi-Channel Music 
All are sourced from an HTPC with software (Roon, HQPlayer, Dirac Live) for DSP functions (Bass Management, Upsampling and Room Correction).
Since I assume reasons 2 and 3 (which are valid reasons for multi-channel on their own) are self-explanatory, I'll describe the 1st reason in a bit more details: 
1. I use my PC for Room Correction. 
2. I want to use a Subwoofer for Stereo content (I listen to a lot of bass heavy EDM/Techno tracks)
3. Using a Sub with Stereo content requires the creation of the Subwoofer channel with Bass Management/Crossover. 
4. In order for the Room Correction software (Dirac Live in my case) to tune the Subwoofer channel according to the Subwoofer's measurements, the Subwoofer channel must be created before Room Correction, otherwise, it will "see" and tune only the 2 channels for the mains. 
5. That means that the 2.0 to 2.1 conversion is happening before the signal leaves the PC, which requires multi-channel (3 channels for Stereo)
That's for Multi-Channel per se, which I get really nicely today from the UMC-200 using HDMI from the PC. 
As for why I need a Multi-Channel DAC... Well, I fear I am much less confident that I actually do and not simply a victim of the consumer audio industry mambo jumbo  
I've educated myself on jitter, the audio clock issues of HDMI and theoretical qualities of a good async DAC... but to say I'm confident it would be audible to me with my system is a stretch... One that I'm itching to scratch  

I get the room correction process, I understand the sourcing, I also have a UMC-200 so I also understand it's workings (although I have REW'd mine rather than perform correction at the source). I also run 2.1 for stereo music, albeit via an XSP-1 (ie; no correction) as my room is pretty good and I have added a couple of minor  acoustic treatments. Since I have multiple sources, computer, CD &  SACD players and vinyl, a computer based correction wouldn't really work for me.

What I don't get is the need (want) for an 8 channel DAC. I can see the need for a 3 channel for 2.1 and maybe also 6 channel for 5.1, but since I haven't seen any music that needs more than 5.1 I just don't get the 8 channels. Hence the question, what an I missing, why 8 channels?

Cheers
Gary

[cwt]

Feb 27, 2018 2:02:31 GMT -5 ronkuper said:

Of course being an Emo customer I'm familiar with it and was hoping it would be mentioned here for discussion.
I don't know regarding the USB connection, does it have an async multi-channel USB DAC? 

Similar 2ch capabilities like the oppo Ron ; here is the XMC1'S c media chip ;

wenku.baidu.com/view/da45cac9a1c7aa00b52acb44.html

[ronkuper]

Feb 27, 2018 22:42:12 GMT -5 cwt said:

Feb 27, 2018 2:02:31 GMT -5 ronkuper said:

Of course being an Emo customer I'm familiar with it and was hoping it would be mentioned here for discussion.
I don't know regarding the USB connection, does it have an async multi-channel USB DAC? 

Similar 2ch capabilities like the oppo Ron ; here is the XMC1'S c media chip ;

wenku.baidu.com/view/da45cac9a1c7aa00b52acb44.html

Thanks, That's helpful! 

What I don't get is the need (want) for an 8 channel DAC. I can see the need for a 3 channel for 2.1 and maybe also 6 channel for 5.1, but since I haven't seen any music that needs more than 5.1 I just don't get the 8 channels. Hence the question, what an I missing, why 8 channels?

I don't have content (or speakers) for more than 6 channels (5.1)... But there are movies with audio tracks with 7.1 and even much more with Atmos.
Secondly, I haven't seen DACs with 3 channels... So it is not like we have much choice.
Third - I actually plan to use the extra channels for Passive Bi-Amping - emotivalounge.proboards.com/threads/recent/52087