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Post by goozoo on Apr 3, 2018 13:31:05 GMT -5
As many already know, the XMC-1 does not allow for a 5.0 or 7.0 calibration, to then add a sub without applying what is termed a "stale" filter to the sub channel. This has been a point of contention for many users, especially those who are working with multiple subs in their theater environment. Being curious about why, I engaged in a conversation with the makers of DIRAC as to this behavior and whether or not it was a function of software or the OEM device. After much discussion and research on their part, here is what I have been told.
-Application of the "stale" filter is a function of the OEM device purely and not of the DIRAC software
-DIRAC Live does allow for the manual removal of a supposed "stale" filter from the PC PRIOR to the filter set being transferred to the unit via DLCT assuming the OEM allows access to the filter
As many already know, most room correction software cannot adequately address the complexities of a multi-sub configuration and is best left to be handled via manual calibration. DIRAC's use of a mixed FIR and IIR filter design attenuates the low end too much which no amount of post-optimization correction seems to adequately compensate for. Given that this is a "purely OEM" situation, why is it that Emotiva will not remove this "stale" filtering feature from their processor? Doing so would mean that the DIRAC filters would be lost in the case of a processor factory reset, but it would also mean that owners of multiple subs can finally calibrate them properly while reaping the benefits of a DIRAC calibration for the remaining bed channels.
Please feel free to share your thoughts and take the poll, so that admins and possibly Dan/Lonny can be made aware of the user base opinion.
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Post by wilburthegoose on Apr 3, 2018 13:41:28 GMT -5
Another option - I don't really care because I have one sub.
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gabe
Minor Hero
Posts: 56 
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Post by gabe on Apr 21, 2018 8:19:19 GMT -5
And Dirac did not EQ that properly either.
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Post by millst on Apr 21, 2018 10:52:54 GMT -5
Can't you just perform a calibration with the sub enabled and set the curtains for the sub channel so that no filters are applied to it?
-tm
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Post by foggy1956 on Apr 21, 2018 11:30:12 GMT -5
Can't you just perform a calibration with the sub enabled and set the curtains for the sub channel so that no filters are applied to it? -tm If I am correct, this certainly can be done. |
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Post by fbczar on Apr 21, 2018 13:02:40 GMT -5
As many already know, the XMC-1 does not allow for a 5.0 or 7.0 calibration, to then add a sub without applying what is termed a "stale" filter to the sub channel. This has been a point of contention for many users, especially those who are working with multiple subs in their theater environment. Being curious about why, I engaged in a conversation with the makers of DIRAC as to this behavior and whether or not it was a function of software or the OEM device. After much discussion and research on their part, here is what I have been told. -Application of the "stale" filter is a function of the OEM device purely and not of the DIRAC software
-DIRAC Live does allow for the manual removal of a supposed "stale" filter from the PC PRIOR to the filter set being transferred to the unit via DLCT assuming the OEM allows access to the filter
As many already know, most room correction software cannot adequately address the complexities of a multi-sub configuration and is best left to be handles via manual calibration. DIRAC's use of a mixed FIR and IIR filter design attenuates the low end too much which no amount of post-optimization correction seems to adequately compensate for. Given that this is a "purely OEM" situation, why is it that Emotiva will not remove this "stale" filtering feature from their processor? Doing so would mean that the DIRAC filters would be lost in the case of a processor factory reset, but it would also mean that owners of multiple subs can finally calibrate them properly while reaping the benefits of a DIRAC calibration for the remaining bed channels.
Please feel free to share your thoughts and take the poll, so that admins and possibly Dan/Lonny can be made aware of the user base opinion.
So you are using Dirac full and have designed a custom room curve, but that curve did not work properly with your four subs? |
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Post by goozoo on Apr 22, 2018 0:11:59 GMT -5
As many already know, the XMC-1 does not allow for a 5.0 or 7.0 calibration, to then add a sub without applying what is termed a "stale" filter to the sub channel. This has been a point of contention for many users, especially those who are working with multiple subs in their theater environment. Being curious about why, I engaged in a conversation with the makers of DIRAC as to this behavior and whether or not it was a function of software or the OEM device. After much discussion and research on their part, here is what I have been told. -Application of the "stale" filter is a function of the OEM device purely and not of the DIRAC software
-DIRAC Live does allow for the manual removal of a supposed "stale" filter from the PC PRIOR to the filter set being transferred to the unit via DLCT assuming the OEM allows access to the filter
As many already know, most room correction software cannot adequately address the complexities of a multi-sub configuration and is best left to be handles via manual calibration. DIRAC's use of a mixed FIR and IIR filter design attenuates the low end too much which no amount of post-optimization correction seems to adequately compensate for. Given that this is a "purely OEM" situation, why is it that Emotiva will not remove this "stale" filtering feature from their processor? Doing so would mean that the DIRAC filters would be lost in the case of a processor factory reset, but it would also mean that owners of multiple subs can finally calibrate them properly while reaping the benefits of a DIRAC calibration for the remaining bed channels.
Please feel free to share your thoughts and take the poll, so that admins and possibly Dan/Lonny can be made aware of the user base opinion.
So you are using Dirac full and have designed a custom room curve, but that curve did not work properly with your four subs? As has been correctly pointed out, one can do a calibration with the curtains moved beyond 150Hz in the LFE channel to disable the filters being applied to the channel. A simple solution indeed. To answer your question, no. No room correction can properly address the situation presented with 3+ subs present in the room with regard to their position, phase, and gain of each speaker. Moreover, DIRAC sets to flatten the frequency response by removing the room gain observed through employing a combination of IIR and FIR filters. In so doing, it thins out the low end and any unique speaker signature present. Simply customizing the house curve through the DIRAC software does not solve the problem as the FIR filters employed attenuate too much of the given frequency to attain an ideal phase match. Moreover, applying a low shelf filter for example, via an outboard DSP, helps but does not give the same tactile results. As such, I agree that the best solution is to simply move the curtains past 150Hz in the LFE channel and do a manual calibration via other third party software like MSO. |
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Post by foggy1956 on Apr 22, 2018 5:18:06 GMT -5
So you are using Dirac full and have designed a custom room curve, but that curve did not work properly with your four subs? As has been correctly pointed out, one can do a calibration with the curtains moved beyond 150Hz in the LFE channel to disable the filters being applied to the channel. A simple solution indeed. To answer your question, no. No room correction can properly address the situation presented with 3+ subs present in the room with regard to their position, phase, and gain of each speaker. Moreover, DIRAC sets to flatten the frequency response by removing the room gain observed through employing a combination of IIR and FIR filters. In so doing, it thins out the low end and any unique speaker signature present. Simply customizing the house curve through the DIRAC software does not solve the problem as the FIR filters employed attenuate too much of the given frequency to attain an ideal phase match. Moreover, applying a low shelf filter for example, via an outboard DSP, helps but does not give the same tactile results. As such, I agree that the best solution is to simply move the curtains past 150Hz in the LFE channel and do a manual calibration via other third party software like MSO. I time align 3 subs using a minidsp, build the shelf in dirac full and let it run that way. REW shows definite improvements with this approach |
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Post by fbczar on Apr 22, 2018 10:40:45 GMT -5
So you are using Dirac full and have designed a custom room curve, but that curve did not work properly with your four subs? As has been correctly pointed out, one can do a calibration with the curtains moved beyond 150Hz in the LFE channel to disable the filters being applied to the channel. A simple solution indeed. To answer your question, no. No room correction can properly address the situation presented with 3+ subs present in the room with regard to their position, phase, and gain of each speaker. Moreover, DIRAC sets to flatten the frequency response by removing the room gain observed through employing a combination of IIR and FIR filters. In so doing, it thins out the low end and any unique speaker signature present. Simply customizing the house curve through the DIRAC software does not solve the problem as the FIR filters employed attenuate too much of the given frequency to attain an ideal phase match. Moreover, applying a low shelf filter for example, via an outboard DSP, helps but does not give the same tactile results. As such, I agree that the best solution is to simply move the curtains past 150Hz in the LFE channel and do a manual calibration via other third party software like MSO. Thanks for your reply. Are you saying you have not tried to design a custom curve that does not attenuate the room gain because you do not believe it can be done or that you tried to do it and it would not work? Also is it your position that the problem with Dirac and subwoofer Calibration begins at 3+ subs. That is, in your experience Dirac can calibrate up to two subs, but fails to work with any more than two? In my experience, using two subs, in Stereo mode, with Dirac can be successful. Of course, the custom curve must be designed so the room gain is not lost. I am very interested in your experience with Dirac. I have two Kreisel DXD12012 subwoofers so I want to take full advantage of them. |
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Post by goozoo on Apr 22, 2018 19:09:18 GMT -5
As has been correctly pointed out, one can do a calibration with the curtains moved beyond 150Hz in the LFE channel to disable the filters being applied to the channel. A simple solution indeed. To answer your question, no. No room correction can properly address the situation presented with 3+ subs present in the room with regard to their position, phase, and gain of each speaker. Moreover, DIRAC sets to flatten the frequency response by removing the room gain observed through employing a combination of IIR and FIR filters. In so doing, it thins out the low end and any unique speaker signature present. Simply customizing the house curve through the DIRAC software does not solve the problem as the FIR filters employed attenuate too much of the given frequency to attain an ideal phase match. Moreover, applying a low shelf filter for example, via an outboard DSP, helps but does not give the same tactile results. As such, I agree that the best solution is to simply move the curtains past 150Hz in the LFE channel and do a manual calibration via other third party software like MSO. Thanks for your reply. Are you saying you have not tried to design a custom curve that does not attenuate the room gain because you do not believe it can be done or that you tried to do it and it would not work? Also is it your position that the problem with Dirac and subwoofer Calibration begins at 3+ subs. That is, in your experience Dirac can calibrate up to two subs, but fails to work with any more than two? In my experience, using two subs, in Stereo mode, with Dirac can be successful. Of course, the custom curve must be designed so the room gain is not lost. I am very interested in your experience with Dirac. I have two Kreisel DXD12012 subwoofers so I want to take full advantage of them. Generally speaking, the use of a mixed filter design (IIR+FIR) for sub calibration has not given me as good a response as using other third party software to perform a manual calibration where only IIR filters are employed; regardless of how the house curve is set. Dirac is setup to work with 2 subs and will try and calibrate them in relation to the bed channels. This is good if using a stereo sub configuration in essence creating a full range speaker for 2 channel listening. HT application works a little differently. If you have 3-4 subs spread out for example, you often sum the signal but need to account for the varying distances, phase, gain, and freq. response with respect to each other and then with regards to the overall system. As for my experience with DIRAC, I have found it useful to obtain the anechoic frequency response of the speakers prior to calibration so that I can re-create the sound signature versus the generic one dictated to by the software. |
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Post by fbczar on Apr 23, 2018 7:05:17 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply. Are you saying you have not tried to design a custom curve that does not attenuate the room gain because you do not believe it can be done or that you tried to do it and it would not work? Also is it your position that the problem with Dirac and subwoofer Calibration begins at 3+ subs. That is, in your experience Dirac can calibrate up to two subs, but fails to work with any more than two? In my experience, using two subs, in Stereo mode, with Dirac can be successful. Of course, the custom curve must be designed so the room gain is not lost. I am very interested in your experience with Dirac. I have two Kreisel DXD12012 subwoofers so I want to take full advantage of them. Generally speaking, the use of a mixed filter design (IIR+FIR) for sub calibration has not given me as good a response as using other third party software to perform a manual calibration where only IIR filters are employed; regardless of how the house curve is set. Dirac is setup to work with 2 subs and will try and calibrate them in relation to the bed channels. This is good if using a stereo sub configuration in essence creating a full range speaker for 2 channel listening. HT application works a little differently. If you have 3-4 subs spread out for example, you often sum the signal but need to account for the varying distances, phase, gain, and freq. response with respect to each other and then with regards to the overall system. As for my experience with DIRAC, I have found it useful to obtain the anechoic frequency response of the speakers prior to calibration so that I can re-create the sound signature versus the generic one dictated to by the software. Do you find Dirac to be effective in a two subwoofer system that is used for both stereo and home theater? It is interesting that many prefer to use Dirac or Anthem's ARC software to EQ below 300Hz, but not above that frequency, which is the opposite of your preference. I am trying to understand why it is not possible to design a house curve that preserves in-room response and room gain. Do you find it best to use a miniDSP setup in combination with Dirac? If so do you use the curtain feature of Dirac to prevent Dirac from effecting frequencies below a certain level, say 200Hz, and employ the miniDSP to address those lower frequencies? Again, I would appreciate your input relative to two subwoofers in a system used for both music and home theater. |
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Post by goozoo on Apr 23, 2018 14:45:29 GMT -5
Generally speaking, the use of a mixed filter design (IIR+FIR) for sub calibration has not given me as good a response as using other third party software to perform a manual calibration where only IIR filters are employed; regardless of how the house curve is set. Dirac is setup to work with 2 subs and will try and calibrate them in relation to the bed channels. This is good if using a stereo sub configuration in essence creating a full range speaker for 2 channel listening. HT application works a little differently. If you have 3-4 subs spread out for example, you often sum the signal but need to account for the varying distances, phase, gain, and freq. response with respect to each other and then with regards to the overall system. As for my experience with DIRAC, I have found it useful to obtain the anechoic frequency response of the speakers prior to calibration so that I can re-create the sound signature versus the generic one dictated to by the software. Do you find Dirac to be effective in a two subwoofer system that is used for both stereo and home theater? It is interesting that many prefer to use Dirac or Anthem's ARC software to EQ below 300Hz, but not above that frequency, which is the opposite of your preference. I am trying to understand why it is not possible to design a house curve that preserves in-room response and room gain. Do you find it best to use a miniDSP setup in combination with Dirac? If so do you use the curtain feature of Dirac to prevent Dirac from effecting frequencies below a certain level, say 200Hz, and employ the miniDSP to address those lower frequencies? Again, I would appreciate your input relative to two subwoofers in a system used for both music and home theater. The use of DIRAC in a two subwoofer system used for both HT and music can be effective assuming it is tuned differently for each. In HT the LFE channel rolls off at around 120Hz beyond which the rest is filtered out. Furthermore, much of the LF effects in today's hi-res audio tracks fall below 25Hz at considerable levels to create a tactile sensation. In contrast, music rarely falls below 28Hz unless it is something like pipe organs and when it does, it is often of a very transient nature; unlike movies which are sustained. The use of FIR + IIR filters creates a very precise but transient response in the lower frequency bandwidth which makes it an ideal tool for music when trying to integrate subs. This effect however is not desirable by others when watching movies where certain scenes have sustained LF effects. Take Rogue One for example where they are in the cave and everything is crashing around them. With DIRAC only engaged, regardless of how you have your house curve, there is a very musically accurate but unrealistic response versus when you do a manual calibration and only IIR filters are used. The other thing to keep in mind is that with DIRAC, time alignment is made with regard to the LF speaker, For HT, that alignment is usually done with respect to the center channel. Finally, there have been situations where the crossover point with the subs would be changed based on their application. I personally do a manual calibration of the subs prior to optimization with Multi-Sub Optimizer software and use them strictly for HT application. For our mixed use clients, where music and cinema are employed, then two different scenarios are created and the speakers calibrated accordingly for them to switch between. An outboard DSP like a miniDSP is a requirement in a multi-sub scenario to have full control over the audio. In your case, just try both and see which you like better. There are plenty of articles on multi-sub calibration and MSO is free software that can be downloaded. |
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