klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 26, 2018 21:24:08 GMT -5
I have experienced people saying they either liked or disliked my system and they have somehow singled out 1 single piece of equipment as the reason. I've never been able to understand that. So, I can relate to what Boomzilla is saying. To be able to say "this particular aspect made the difference", one has to listen single-variable. Otherwise, all one can conclude is "like it/don't like it". Even with the various options garbulky notes, it's not a single "Dirac vs. Tact vs. ..." comparison. It's "this gear with Dirac vs. that gear w/Tact vs..." So, it would be hard to say if someone likes one over the other based on the comparisons and the multi-variable nature of it. But, what it all does come back to is this: "Is there an option which makes boom's sound better within a reasonable set of usability constraints?" Who knows? But, in my opinion, as a pre/pro...a used XMC-1 with full Dirac would be worth a listen. Mark
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Post by socketman on May 26, 2018 23:35:30 GMT -5
I gotta throw this out there . You can not expect any RC regardless of brand to fix something that has not had some thought put into it. Do the work and you will be paid back, make the room and the speakers the best it can be before running room correction. No one can expect room correction to be all in one magic wand solution even if it is portrayed in an off hand way of being just that.
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Post by Boomzilla on May 27, 2018 0:55:59 GMT -5
Although I agree with you, socketman, there is also another factor to consider - cost. The typical room treatment company recommends that 25 to 40% of the room area be covered with absorbent material. If you're starting with a carpeted room with an acoustic-tile ceiling, then fine. But if not, then you're talking several thousands of dollars worth of room treatment panels. They aren't cheap, and unless you get the arty ones, have zilch WAF. No, a RC system won't make up for a total lack of room absorbers, but if you treat the first-reflection points with absorbers, the RC can (inexpensively) compensate for most of the missing ones (at least in theory). So on a cost-efficiency basis, the RC system wins. I'd also argue that the RC system can do things that passive absorbers / diffusers can't. Many (most?) audio installs are placed in rooms where the right-to-left symmetry is non-existent due to unavoidable architectural impediments such as doors or windows. I see ever so many photos of an expensive system with one speaker hard in a corner, and the other on a flat wall. Passive treatment (unless heroically-conceived and professionally designed and applied) can't effectively fix this. However, even a modest RC system will go a long way to fixing the time and frequency response of such setups. So I'd argue that for the typical audiophile who has to consider integrating a stereo in a multi-use room, and who can't afford to double the system cost with room treatments, a RC system is a Godsend. Just sayin'...
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Post by socketman on May 27, 2018 1:35:44 GMT -5
Absorption is only part of it, there is also diffraction to be considered. Also speaker placement, separation ,distance from rear and side walls and subwoofage location.Do the subwoofer crawl,sub frequencies require the most help and are the hardest to tame. There are plenty of DIY options as well though that is not for everyone. Also consider that if your RC has to make drastic adjustments it could be limiting your line level outputs and or overdriving them and possibly your amps in an attempt to correct peaks especially in the sub 100hz area. Programs such as but not limited to Room EQ Wizard can help you get sorted before running RC.
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Post by Boomzilla on May 27, 2018 3:12:24 GMT -5
... if your RC has to make drastic adjustments it could be limiting your line level outputs and or overdriving them and possibly your amps... This is not an issue with RC. All RC systems that I'm aware of will attenuate peaks, but make NO attempt to fill dips. That means that the RC should NEVER overdrive your amps (or the AVR's internal amps) into distortion. The RC engineers realized that boosting signal would have the potential to damage equipment (amps and speakers), and therefore eliminated all boost to avoid that possibility. This is a universal design feature that ALL RCs incorporate. So, by design, overdriving is impossible.
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Post by socketman on May 27, 2018 13:10:57 GMT -5
... if your RC has to make drastic adjustments it could be limiting your line level outputs and or overdriving them and possibly your amps... This is not an issue with RC. All RC systems that I'm aware of will attenuate peaks, but make NO attempt to fill dips. That means that the RC should NEVER overdrive your amps (or the AVR's internal amps) into distortion. The RC engineers realized that boosting signal would have the potential to damage equipment (amps and speakers), and therefore eliminated all boost to avoid that possibility. This is a universal design feature that ALL RCs incorporate. So, by design, overdriving is impossible. I am not going to argue that point with you Boom since i am too lazy to look into it but i do know that Dirac Live full allows both boost and attenuation . I would have to do a search but i recall that Dirac does both even on its own without intervention. We will have to agree to disagree. I am not sure of your motivations here and why you would resist room treatment before expecting an all in one slicer and dicer approach to achieve the same results but to each his own i didnt come here to argue just wanted to point out a way to enhance the abilities of the RC . So go ahead and face your speakers backwards and run your subs full range or whatever it makes no difference to me. I just share my experiences and you can take what you want and leave the rest .
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bootman
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Post by bootman on May 27, 2018 13:18:24 GMT -5
I have experienced people saying they either liked or disliked my system and they have somehow singled out 1 single piece of equipment as the reason. I've never been able to understand that.... Mark Only speakers fall into that category.
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Post by socketman on May 27, 2018 16:16:07 GMT -5
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Post by garbulky on May 27, 2018 16:29:41 GMT -5
B'zilla has always wanted a streamlined system. He alternates between the all in one do all box and full separates depending on how much he can stand the number of extra boxes. But ideally I beleive he would love an all in one solution.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on May 27, 2018 16:39:13 GMT -5
I'd love a hundred million dollars, too.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on May 27, 2018 16:41:42 GMT -5
I forget who first said this but it's true: All audio involves a series of compromises. The trick is to discover those compromises you are willing to live with.
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Post by Boomzilla on May 27, 2018 17:00:08 GMT -5
I am not going to argue that point with you Boom since i am too lazy to look into it but i do know that Dirac Live full allows both boost and attenuation . I would have to do a search but i recall that Dirac does both even on its own without intervention. We will have to agree to disagree. I am not sure of your motivations here and why you would resist room treatment before expecting an all in one slicer and dicer approach to achieve the same results but to each his own i didnt come here to argue just wanted to point out a way to enhance the abilities of the RC . So go ahead and face your speakers backwards and run your subs full range or whatever it makes no difference to me. I just share my experiences and you can take what you want and leave the rest . Hi socketman - I could be totally wrong, and am not intending to start an argument at all. What I said is what I'd read somewhere, but it WAS some time ago, and newer RC systems may very well both boost and attenuate. I agree with you that the less the RC system has to do, the more likely it is to be successful. So, at least in theory, it's much better to get one's room as close as possible to neutral with passive room treatment rather than electronic RC. In practice, acoustic treatment has limitations (cost, WAF, etc.). When those limitations become impractical to further attenuate, then RC rides to the rescue. So in short, I think we're actually in agreement. Cordially - Boom
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 27, 2018 18:00:00 GMT -5
This is true that Dirac will boost - up to a limit - or attenuate, based on what I understand. If a room is "Reasonable" to start with and only minor tweaks are needed - all will be fine. If major tweaks are needed to solve big dips in response, for example, the Dirac (and others) might limit output to "hot" speakers so the "cool" parts don't have to be boosted too much. I have not had this issue, but others have.
Mark
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Post by socketman on May 27, 2018 18:41:01 GMT -5
Yes the dreaded WAF, never worried about what she had to say, guess thats why i am single now. Problemo solved,also i have a dedicated room of sorts,not sound proof but is light controlled and no one to bother. I totally understand what your saying but even working in some wall hangings or a couple of absorbers at the first reflection ,tastefully designed of course goes a long way. I could do more but you know what they say, dont hang the projector till your room is done.
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Post by Boomzilla on May 27, 2018 19:14:09 GMT -5
I’m mystified too, a lot of people successfully use the Oppo as a decoder / ‘preamp’, but cable boxes can be finicky. Since you don’t like the sound of the Oppo DAC it makes sense to quit swimming upstream. I’d also vote for a used XMC-1, if you can hold off a while there should be a few more for sale, and selling the Oppo should put a big dent in the cost. But even with an AVR, I can't sell the Oppo - I still need to have an AV disc player to watch movies (that I don't want to stream). By the end of this week, the rack's looking like: Cox Cable box connected to AVR by HDMI Oppo UDP-205 connected to AVR by HDMI Mac Mini music server connected to AVR by HDMI Samsung 4K UHD TV connected to AVR by HDMI with ARC All 5.1 speakers & sub connected to AVR Sound = unknown...
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 27, 2018 19:40:38 GMT -5
I’m mystified too, a lot of people successfully use the Oppo as a decoder / ‘preamp’, but cable boxes can be finicky. Since you don’t like the sound of the Oppo DAC it makes sense to quit swimming upstream. I’d also vote for a used XMC-1, if you can hold off a while there should be a few more for sale, and selling the Oppo should put a big dent in the cost. But even with an AVR, I can't sell the Oppo - I still need to have an AV disc player to watch movies (that I don't want to stream). By the end of this week, the rack's looking like: Cox Cable box connected to AVR by HDMI Oppo UDP-205 connected to AVR by HDMI Mac Mini music server connected to AVR by HDMI Samsung 4K UHD TV connected to AVR by HDMI with ARC All 5.1 speakers & sub connected to AVR Sound = unknown... You could sell the Oppo and get a lower priced AV disc player. There seem to be plenty that folks here like. Mark
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Post by Bonzo on May 27, 2018 20:06:12 GMT -5
But even with an AVR, I can't sell the Oppo - I still need to have an AV disc player to watch movies (that I don't want to stream). By the end of this week, the rack's looking like: Cox Cable box connected to AVR by HDMI Oppo UDP-205 connected to AVR by HDMI Mac Mini music server connected to AVR by HDMI Samsung 4K UHD TV connected to AVR by HDMI with ARC All 5.1 speakers & sub connected to AVR Sound = unknown... You could sell the Oppo and get a lower priced AV disc player. There seem to be plenty that folks here like. Mark I told him that many months ago. Sell the 205, which he basically hates the sound of. Take that money and buy a 203, or something else, for watching UHD. Then take the money left and get back a used 105 which he loved the sound of and operation of for streaming. With an AVR or Processor inbetween, switching is super simple. The best of both worlds. Or, what the heck, skip the 105 and get a separate streamer. He could audition music streamers until the cows come home. But he tends not to listen. Sounds right up his alley, but his total distain for more components in the chain out weighs the actual "the rest of us get it" makes sense approach. Boom will hear some 0.000005 db at some frequency that the processor adds or subtracts and he will find that an unacceptable compromise. Its 110% about the sound don't cha know.😉😁
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 27, 2018 20:09:28 GMT -5
You could sell the Oppo and get a lower priced AV disc player. There seem to be plenty that folks here like. Mark I told him that many months ago. Sell the 205, which he basically hates the sound of. Take that money and buy a 203, or something else, for watching UHD. Then take the money left and get back a used 105 which he loved the sound of and operation of for streaming. With an AVR or Processor inbetween, switching is super simple. The best of both worlds. Or, what the heck, skip the 105 and get a separate streamer. He could audition music streamers until the cows come home. But he tends not to listen. Sounds right up his alley, but his total distain for more components in the chain out weighs the actual "the rest of us get it" makes sense approach. Boom will hear some 0.000005 db at some frequency that the processor adds or subtracts and he will find that an unacceptable compromise. Its 110% about the sound don't cha know.😉😁 My used 105 just had a price drop! (105! 105! 105!) Mark
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Post by Bonzo on May 27, 2018 20:13:59 GMT -5
I told him that many months ago. Sell the 205, which he basically hates the sound of. Take that money and buy a 203, or something else, for watching UHD. Then take the money left and get back a used 105 which he loved the sound of and operation of for streaming. With an AVR or Processor inbetween, switching is super simple. The best of both worlds. Or, what the heck, skip the 105 and get a separate streamer. He could audition music streamers until the cows come home. But he tends not to listen. Sounds right up his alley, but his total distain for more components in the chain out weighs the actual "the rest of us get it" makes sense approach. Boom will hear some 0.000005 db at some frequency that the processor adds or subtracts and he will find that an unacceptable compromise. Its 110% about the sound don't cha know.😉😁 My used 105 just had a price drop! (105! 105! 105!) Mark Can I be honest with you? I got mine for something like $585, including shipping. Boom sold his for $675 I think. Your price is ebay high ball IMO. BUT, that was before Oppo decided to call it quits. So you may have a 1937 Cord convertible on your hands there. ☺️
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 27, 2018 20:34:46 GMT -5
My used 105 just had a price drop! (105! 105! 105!) Mark Can I be honest with you? I got mine for something like $585, including shipping. Boom sold his for $675 I think. Your price is ebay high ball IMO. BUT, that was before Oppo decided to call it quits. So you may have a 1937 Cord convertible on your hands there. ☺️ Exactly...and I am in no hurry. I've seen several go for at or above my asking price recently. If mine sells, fine. If not, fine. Mark
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