|
Post by audiobill on Aug 29, 2018 14:50:44 GMT -5
The most important factor in the "sound" of your system is your listening room, how it's treated, and the speaker/room interface.
So, all this talk about "accuracy" is mostly relevant in anechoic chambers..
Go for the sonics that make you tap your toes, and YMMV.
For me, it's the "in my room" aspect of my system, imaging, transparency and soundstage that clearly win out over specs.
|
|
masama
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 1
|
Post by masama on Aug 31, 2018 9:30:42 GMT -5
I have owned both preamps. Neither was as good as I had hoped. Replaced with similar priced SS and Tube preamps. I prefer the Tube preamp with my mid efficiency speakers and a Class AB Power Amp. When used with a Class D amp and high efficiency speakers, the coloration and background hiss/hum is very annoying.
|
|
|
Post by Loop 7 on Aug 31, 2018 19:37:29 GMT -5
I tend to WANT to hear the recording as the performer, the recording engineer, and the mix engineer... Wouldn't that require a trip to the specific mastering room with it's electronics and acoustics? What if the final version the artist and engineers love had tube amps in the chain?
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Sept 1, 2018 1:03:29 GMT -5
I tend to WANT to hear the recording as the performer, the recording engineer, and the mix engineer... Wouldn't that require a trip to the specific mastering room with it's electronics and acoustics? What if the final version the artist and engineers love had tube amps in the chain? Then they would have recorded it with the tube amps in the chain. Adding more tube amps just doubles up the tubiness. Cheers Gary.
|
|
|
Post by vcautokid on Sept 1, 2018 21:14:24 GMT -5
You guys work way too hard on this. You buy tubes because you like 'em. Duh!! There is not right, there is no wrong. Relax Keith, and take it easy on me all you Solid State FET feigns and Vacuum Tube cognoscenti. Measurements are the Keith thing. Yeah get that. There is no denying they don't spec like an FET. Another Duh!!! So they don't sound like an FET or vice versa. I think there is space for both. Makes life kind of nice huh? I would love an XSP-1 sure. Who wouldn't. I would also say I would love have the Prima Luna Prologue Preamplifiers. They do so much and do it well. Built well, look gorgeous too. And justify their price with value in their parts quality and engineering. There is one Vacuum Tube company right now thoroughly pissing me off right now. $5500.00 for an almost empty box and they use digital volume control management. What? ? $5500.00!!!! And Digital Volume control. Also an indifferent E core though a good quality Japan sourced Transformer. Also they use an off the shelf forgettable volume pot. Weighs 13 pounds too!!! www.primaluna-usa.com/prologue-premium-preamplifierThe Prima Luna depending on which you get weighs like 32 or 52 pounds or there abouts. I mean what the actual???!!! Insert favorite word here. I am sick and tired of Vacuum Tubes and to a certain extent Solid State not delivering the beef for the bacon price! Filet Mignon better be all that when you are paying for it. And in response, yes I like VTL and have the utter most respect for the Manley folks. I had one of their Preamplifiers. Tasty! and enjoyable. I liked it. I like Solid State. Takeaway? I like done well and with great value and quality. Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by jdmusante on Sept 2, 2018 1:26:05 GMT -5
You guys work way too hard on this. You buy tubes because you like 'em. Duh!! There is not right, there is no wrong. Relax Keith, and take it easy on me all you Solid State FET feigns and Vacuum Tube cognoscenti. Measurements are the Keith thing. Yeah get that. There is no denying they don't spec like an FET. Another Duh!!! So they don't sound like an FET or vice versa. I think there is space for both. Makes life kind of nice huh? I would love an XSP-1 sure. Who wouldn't. I would also say I would love have the Prima Luna Prologue Preamplifiers. They do so much and do it well. Built well, look gorgeous too. And justify their price with value in their parts quality and engineering. There is one Vacuum Tube company right now thoroughly pissing me off right now. $5500.00 for an almost empty box and they use digital volume control management. What? ? $5500.00!!!! And Digital Volume control. Also an indifferent E core though a good quality Japan sourced Transformer. Also they use an off the shelf forgettable volume pot. Weighs 13 pounds too!!! www.primaluna-usa.com/prologue-premium-preamplifierThe Prima Luna depending on which you get weighs like 32 or 52 pounds or there abouts. I mean what the actual???!!! Insert favorite word here. I am sick and tired of Vacuum Tubes and to a certain extent Solid State not delivering the beef for the bacon price! Filet Mignon better be all that when you are paying for it. And in response, yes I like VTL and have the utter most respect for the Manley folks. I had one of their Preamplifiers. Tasty! and enjoyable. I liked it. I like Solid State. Takeaway? I like done well and with great value and quality. Thank you. Passionate take. I like it. Thanks for the Prima Luna tip. Never heard of them before.
|
|
|
Post by vcautokid on Sept 2, 2018 6:34:48 GMT -5
You are welcome jdmusante. There are some that really work hard to earn your hard earned money. Some have name, and well.....you know. Hope your Labor Day weekend is sounding great!
|
|
|
Post by jdmusante on Sept 2, 2018 18:23:22 GMT -5
You are welcome jdmusante. There are some that really work hard to earn your hard earned money. Some have name, and well.....you know. Hope your Labor Day weekend is sounding great! Funny how you start seeing things when you know about them. There is a guy on Craigslist here, south of LA selling a pair of Prima Luna Prologue Premium Tube Monoblocks. Half the price of what they are new. They are beautiful pieces of audio hardware.
|
|
|
Post by vcautokid on Sept 3, 2018 1:42:30 GMT -5
Yep they can be real bargains. Just takes patience and research. The fit and finish are crazy. The paint alone is amazing. Yeah I had a Prologue Two. Should have never sold it.
|
|
|
Post by boomzilla on Sept 3, 2018 5:54:31 GMT -5
...There is one Vacuum Tube company right now thoroughly pissing me off right now. $5500.00 for an almost empty box and they use digital volume control management. What? ? $5500.00!!!! And Digital Volume control. Also an indifferent E core though a good quality Japan sourced Transformer. Also they use an off the shelf forgettable volume pot. Weighs 13 pounds too!!! Hi vcautokid - Although your pricing complaints are justified (as are the performance observations), lots of folks just LOVE the products from that specific "Vacuum Tube company." I haven't heard the specific component that you're probably referring to, but I might point out that in addition to unique styling and reliability virtues, many just like the sound of those products. I understand the attraction, but personally consider other brands to be better values for the money. I vote with my wallet (as do we all). The only other thing that I'd point out is that some of the company's other products actually ARE good (or at least fair) values for the money, and so it's probably hyperbole to judge the whole company by its most obvious howling dog. Now I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir, and that you already know all these things - thus your tact. I admire your diplomacy and (at least for the product under discussion) agree with you wholeheartedly. And just as an aside, I consistently enjoy your posts. Thanks for your contributions! Cordially - Boomzilla PS: As to the XSP-1 vs. Schiit Freya debate, the comment I'd make (if I haven't made it before) is that both products measure amazingly well, yet both lack a very important virtue - transparency. One can take a source (any source) and compare the sound of the source direct to the amplifier vs. the source through either of these preamps and INSTANTLY hear the differences. Both preamps throw a wet blanket over the sound and imaging compared to source-direct. Those who claim that measurements are the ultimate definition of how a product sounds need only make this simple comparison to see how ludicrous their claims are in the real world. Every preamp I've ever heard changes the sound in some audible manner (and with NO exceptions). This is true regardless of the preamplifier's specifications. This isn't a "more interconnects and boxes damage the sound" statement either. Obviously, if you're using a variable volume source, then the "preamplifier" is built into the source component - and IT changes the sound also. But even on fixed-volume sources - and even with passive preampfification - the sound changes. So to paraphrase Mr. Levkoff - it you want to hear what's on the recording, be very, very careful what preamplifier you select. It sets the tone for everything else in the system (pun is deliberate). And (the hard part here) - the preamp that I prefer may not be the one that you do. We're all listening for different priorities (dynamics? flat frequency response? low-level detail? Imaging?) that matter most to us, and a preamp that I consider wonderful may leave you flat. And the most ironic thing is that your preamp and mine may measure absolutely identically! They just don't sound that way. Which potentially brings up the question - what preamps DO I like? I've owned two over the years that I wish I still had. They're radically different, but both had virtues that I appreciated: 1. A 1970s vintage Dynaco PAS vacuum-tube preamp rebuilt and modified by Frank Van Alstine. This preamp had the audible "flaw" that it added "tube sound" to everything played through it. And I loved the preamp DESPITE its colorations. Its virtues included lack of noise and distortion. Sounds contradictory, but this was the most transparent preamp I've ever heard. Also, its noise measurements (from the PHONO inputs!) were lower than any other preamp I ever measured at line level. This thing spoke with the voice of music, and I could sit for hours playing song after song just to enjoy the performances. The preamp got out of the way of the music and that was what made me love it. 2. A McIntosh C41 solid-state preamp. Again, the noise floor on this unit was so low that you could have the volume set to insanely high levels, and hear NOTHING until the music started - no hiss - no hum - no background at all. I remember playing a song for a visitor who literally screamed from surprise when the music started. She hadn't realized that the stereo was on at all until a (loud) voice began singing. Although the Mac had slightly more coloration than the Van Alstine, it still made the cut with room to spare. Both of the above preamps stayed in my system far longer than most. I regret selling them.
|
|
|
Post by vcautokid on Sept 3, 2018 11:00:38 GMT -5
Allot of times the measure of value we have for components is the regret we have after we sell them. Sure enough, my Tandberg TCD-3014 Cassette Deck, Otari MX-5050B mk.2 Reel to Reel, and my Vincent Audio SA-T1. No relation by the way. Yes, our journey is wrought with risk and at times we go in a direction while perhaps short term joy, is sometimes offset by long term regret. I can never get back the things I gave away. Our Hobby is just that way sometimes.
|
|
|
Post by pedrocols on Sept 3, 2018 11:21:08 GMT -5
I have always questioned why haven't E come out with a preamp exclusively for two channel listening.
|
|
|
Post by DavidR on Sept 3, 2018 11:32:47 GMT -5
I have always questioned why haven't E come out with a preamp exclusively for two channel listening. Me too but you don't have to use the HT. A lot of bang for the buck in the XSP-1.
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Sept 3, 2018 11:37:16 GMT -5
... [ PS: As to the XSP-1 vs. Schiit Freya debate, the comment I'd make (if I haven't made it before) is that both products measure amazingly well, yet both lack a very important virtue - transparency. I regret selling them. You had the Schiit Saga not the Schiit Freya unless there's something I don't know about. Saga Freya
|
|
|
Post by DavidR on Sept 3, 2018 11:55:50 GMT -5
.........................................PS: As to the XSP-1 vs. Schiit Freya debate, the comment I'd make (if I haven't made it before) is that both products measure amazingly well, yet both lack a very important virtue - transparency. One can take a source (any source) and compare the sound of the source direct to the amplifier vs. the source through either of these preamps and INSTANTLY hear the differences. Both preamps throw a wet blanket over the sound and imaging compared to source-direct. Those who claim that measurements are the ultimate definition of how a product sounds need only make this simple comparison to see how ludicrous their claims are in the real world. Every preamp I've ever heard changes the sound in some audible manner (and with NO exceptions). This is true regardless of the preamplifier's specifications. This isn't a "more interconnects and boxes damage the sound" statement either. Obviously, if you're using a variable volume source, then the "preamplifier" is built into the source component - and IT changes the sound also............................................................ Wow, really. Guaranteed you've listened to more preamps than I have but the XSP-1 a wet blanket? I've had six preamps over the years and have also used the preamp sections of receivers. I have found the XSP-1 to be the most neutral of all and quite transparent. Could it be more transparent - probably. However, Emotiva gives you a lot in the XSP-1 that you'd have a hard time finding in another Pre. Synergy is difficult to attain but there could be other things influencing that 'wet blanket' sound.
My current SS office system is dead quiet even at max volume but I attribute that more to the SA250 amp as my tube amp will give a low level hum thru the bass woofer that is only audible when you put your ear up to the driver. As to imaging I've found that has more to do with the speakers. Two sets of speakers with the original caps were dull and didn't image hardly at all. After rebuilding the xovers they image very well and provide great detail.
As for going direct w/o a Pre I would think that would sound better than any Pre in the line. Fewer electronics from point A to B = less of everything an electronic component will add.
|
|
|
Post by boomzilla on Sept 3, 2018 13:35:08 GMT -5
Hi DavidR - I don't argue about the XSP-1's features. It's one of the best bargains on the market from that standpoint. The list of features is comprehensive & stunning. And, as you say, it's a favorite for good reasons. It just isn't my cup of tea. Hi garbulky - You're right - I did own the Schiit Saga, not the balanced Freya. But I still think my comments are valid. Why? Because I wasn't evaluating the preamp with its tube buffer. I was only commenting about the preamp in its passive-volume-control mode. And even in passive mode, I found it to sound veiled. I actually preferred the sound WITH the tube buffer, but it still wasn't clean enough for me. Now the "measurers" are sure to jump me with the question of how a device with no electronics in it at all could possibly color the sound. And I could answer with a discussion of impedance loading of the source and destination components, but it would be for naught. Those with their minds made up are not amenable to persuasion via facts. But I stick by my comment that the preamp just didn't sound good enough for me.
|
|
|
Post by pedrocols on Sept 3, 2018 13:56:18 GMT -5
.........................................PS: As to the XSP-1 vs. Schiit Freya debate, the comment I'd make (if I haven't made it before) is that both products measure amazingly well, yet both lack a very important virtue - transparency. One can take a source (any source) and compare the sound of the source direct to the amplifier vs. the source through either of these preamps and INSTANTLY hear the differences. Both preamps throw a wet blanket over the sound and imaging compared to source-direct. Those who claim that measurements are the ultimate definition of how a product sounds need only make this simple comparison to see how ludicrous their claims are in the real world. Every preamp I've ever heard changes the sound in some audible manner (and with NO exceptions). This is true regardless of the preamplifier's specifications. This isn't a "more interconnects and boxes damage the sound" statement either. Obviously, if you're using a variable volume source, then the "preamplifier" is built into the source component - and IT changes the sound also............................................................ Wow, really. Guaranteed you've listened to more preamps than I have but the XSP-1 a wet blanket? I've had six preamps over the years and have also used the preamp sections of receivers. I have found the XSP-1 to be the most neutral of all and quite transparent. Could it be more transparent - probably. However, Emotiva gives you a lot in the XSP-1 that you'd have a hard time finding in another Pre. Synergy is difficult to attain but there could be other things influencing that 'wet blanket' sound. My current SS office system is dead quiet even at max volume but I attribute that more to the SA250 amp as my tube amp will give a low level hum thru the bass woofer that is only audible when you put your ear up to the driver. As to imaging I've found that has more to do with the speakers. Two sets of speakers with the original caps were dull and didn't image hardly at all. After rebuilding the xovers they image very well and provide great detail.
Neutral isn't always a good thing.
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Sept 3, 2018 14:00:53 GMT -5
Hi DavidR - I don't argue about the XSP-1's features. It's one of the best bargains on the market from that standpoint. The list of features is comprehensive & stunning. And, as you say, it's a favorite for good reasons. It just isn't my cup of tea. Hi garbulky - You're right - I did own the Schiit Saga, not the balanced Freya. But I still think my comments are valid. Why? Because I wasn't evaluating the preamp with its tube buffer. I was only commenting about the preamp in its passive-volume-control mode. And even in passive mode, I found it to sound veiled. I actually preferred the sound WITH the tube buffer, but it still wasn't clean enough for me. Now the "measurers" are sure to jump me with the question of how a device with no electronics in it at all could possibly color the sound. And I could answer with a discussion of impedance loading of the source and destination components, but it would be for naught. Those with their minds made up are not amenable to persuasion via facts. But I stick by my comment that the preamp just didn't sound good enough for me. I don't think passive preamps lack a sound. I actually think they can have more of a sound because of impedance matching. But for me the two units are very different. And the reason people buy them is for the tooobz ! I've heard differing comments about the Freya. Some like it one person said it's not very transparent.
|
|
|
Post by DavidR on Sept 3, 2018 15:57:15 GMT -5
Neutral isn't always a good thing. I would think that depends on what you like.
|
|
|
Post by audiobill on Sept 3, 2018 17:49:40 GMT -5
I tend to WANT to hear the recording as the performer, the recording engineer, and the mix engineer... Wouldn't that require a trip to the specific mastering room with it's electronics and acoustics? What if the final version the artist and engineers love had tube amps in the chain? As to Keith L's tastes, I don't necessarily hear the same as the performer, recording and overlord mix engineers.... Maybe some do, but how to prove?
|
|