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Post by boomzilla on Sept 24, 2018 11:00:15 GMT -5
So after the recently posted thread about high end speaker cables, I just had to ask about youse guys' opinion of high end speakers. Decades ago, there was a pretty linear positive correlation between cost and speaker performance. You could buy a $150 pair of JBLs or ARs, or a $1,500 pair of Magndpans or Acoustats and be satisfied that you were getting your money's worth. But often, today, the difference between a $1,000 pair of speakers and a $10,000 pair of speakers is (at least sometimes) startlingly small. Why? I contend that technology has "flattened the playing field." The same inexpensive (free?) computer program can design a perfectly ported box that can't be improved upon at any price. Other programs can mix and match cabinet materials and bracing schemes to maximize cabinet rigidity, and although more money can do a better job here, the question remains: is the "improvement" audible, or is it not? Similarly, even inexpensive drivers these days provide far, far better performance than used to be available at ANY price. The science of crossovers and how to maximize their performance with specific drivers has also improved by orders of magnitude. So when one buys an expensive pair of speakers these days (which we'll arbitrarily call a MSRP of more than $2,000-ish), are you actually getting anything (other than name recognition) that you couldn't have gotten for less than $2K? And to better define the question, let's limit the question to the following: Home use (no powering of auditoriums or football stadiums) Normal volume (typically one watt or so with current speaker sensitivities) Commercially-available speakers only - no kits or do-it-yourself speakersI've also attached a poll to this question so that you can vote on your value-to-cost optimization. Since I'm posting the question, I'll go first. I think that the sweet spot for loudspeakers in the year of our Lord 2018, is between $1,000 and $2,000 per pair. Beyond that price range, I think that improvements are but incremental and that non-sonic considerations (wood finish, marketing, and pride of ownership) drive what the consumer is willing to spend. Since I write reviews commercially, I'm loathe to publish what I believe are my favorite and specific "best values," but should you really care, you can read my reviews at hometheaterhifi.com and draw your own conclusions. CAN one find high-priced speakers that justify their cost sonically? Yes, I think it's possible, but very, very rare. Now that said, I acknowledge that we all hear differently, and that your ears might just really enjoy the specific presentation of a particular speaker. If that's the case, then it's your money and you've every right to buy any speaker that you admire (expensive or not). So do you agree with this hypothesis (that speakers above $2K / pair offer little additional value)? If not, feel free to blast me right out of the water! Boomzilla
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Post by Casey Leedom on Sept 24, 2018 11:08:40 GMT -5
This is an incredibly difficult question to answer. It depends so much on one's means and how much one cares. There's not going to be any one answer. For me, I eventually talked myself up to the Legacy Audio Focus SEs (~$12K a couple of years ago) to replace my ~25 year-old Vandersteen 2Ce speakers (~$1,200 when I bought them right after the Oakland Hills Fire and I had to replace everything I owned). Both were very good "values" for me when I bought them. Someone a lot more well off than me would probably find different "values" and someone just getting divorced from a 20-year marriage a different "value" point ...
Casey
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Post by pedrocols on Sept 24, 2018 11:16:18 GMT -5
Really? 😂😂 This is a good thread to brag about speakers...😂😂
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 24, 2018 11:29:05 GMT -5
Don't choose speakers based on price. Choose them based on how they sound to you.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Sept 24, 2018 11:59:36 GMT -5
Except of course, it'll always be based on price. If I heard speakers that blew me away that cost $100K I'd just have to say "Yup, they sound swell. Must be nice to be rich ..." :-)
Casey
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Post by mshump on Sept 24, 2018 12:03:23 GMT -5
This is a tough question to answer. There are many great values in the 1-2k range. If you spend more, can you get better sound? Most likely, but is it worth it to you personally? I think DYohn said it best: Choose them based on how they sound to you. Mark
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Sept 24, 2018 12:25:29 GMT -5
Considering how much I love my Maggies and chose them over speakers costing 1.5-2.5x as much, and considering how much I like the Emotiva T2's at <$1K (and would choose them if my Maggies didn't exist) - I chose "none of the above". It doesn't seem to me that price and sound quality are a single variable correlation. Now, put some $500 speakers with some zero gauge speaker wires, and you have something...
Mark
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 24, 2018 12:27:41 GMT -5
Except of course, it'll always be based on price. If I heard speakers that blew me away that cost $100K I'd just have to say "Yup, they sound swell. Must be nice to be rich ..." :-) Casey Price is moot. When I have heard things I loved that I couldn't afford I saved up for them or bought used, or searched for something else that I could afford that sounded similar to the sound I loved. I would never start a search by limiting myself on price. -edit- And I forgot the converse: discovering something that really turns you on that costs a lot less than the price range you might have in mind. That has happened to me more than once - indeed it's how I ended up being an Emotiva fan.
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Post by Bonzo on Sept 24, 2018 13:02:40 GMT -5
Price is moot. I would never start a search by limiting myself on price. Once again, in your perfect little dyohn world, maybe so. Lucky you for having such deep pockets. In most other people's real world, price means a LOT, because our budgets are limited. No amount of saving is going to buy me the best speakers I've ever heard. It does not mean you can't get something great that doesn't cost a lot (like the T2s, Elac, Tekton's etc), or that you have to pay a million dollars for something to be great. But it does mean that, more often than not, budgets must be taken into consideration. I'd love to own a Lamborghini Huracan, but no amount of saving in my lifetime will get me one. Therefore I bought the sports car I liked most within a budget I could afford. I did the same for speakers. I saved up the amount of money I was willing to spend, and then went and listened to every single speaker I could hear within that budget. Price is NOT moot. But on topic of the thread, higher priced speakers do not always yield better sounding speakers. And less expensive speakers can sound quite good.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 24, 2018 13:25:47 GMT -5
Look, what I'm saying is price you can afford is what you can or cannot pay, of course, but it should not limit what you look at. I've been very poor in my life and when I could finally afford a stereo system it was used from the Salvation Army store. And I've also been in the opposite scenario. But when I did buy that $30 stereo from Salvation Army it didn't stop me from listening to an lusting after a Technics receiver and JBL speakers, and after a couple years of scraping by and saving I owned them. So what I'm saying is "you can't always get what you want" but that does not mean you shouldn't try. So stop trying to put ideas in my mouth and read what I'm actually writing.
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Post by donh50 on Sept 24, 2018 13:27:27 GMT -5
I have no idea how to answer such a poll. "Value" depends too much upon the listener, both price and sound targets, and for me value implies best performance at a particular price point. I have had very cheap and fairly expensive (I would have said very expensive but not these days) speakers that provided good value in their price range. Generally I will go in with a price range and try to listen to speakers roughly 1/2 and twice the price of my target to attempt to assess the value of those in my price range. A $2k pair that sound as good as a $4k pair, or very close, is a good value to me but won't to someone with an upper limit of $500 or $500,000.
Concrete example: When I was auditioning my Magnepan MG-IIIa's long ago they were around $2k. I listened to speakers from $1k to $5k a pair, more or less. I also listened to some much more expensive to see if I felt they were worth the price. I heard B&W, Dahlquist, Acoustat, Vandersteen, etc. Just sticking with Maggies, I owned MG-I's, had auditioned MG-IIs (~$1k) and MG-20's (~4k) plus had a friend with Tympani IV's (I think, may have been III's). The ribbon tweeter was to me a clear step up from the MG-IIs but in the same room driven by the same electronics there just was not enough difference to propel me to the 20's. The Tympani's were too big for my space so they were out. At that time, the MG-IIIa's represented the best value to me.
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Post by Bonzo on Sept 24, 2018 13:44:36 GMT -5
Look, what I'm saying is price you can afford is what you can or cannot pay, of course, but it should not limit what you look at. Looking/listening are totally different than buying. This thread is about value, which equates to performance to money ratio. So it's about money. And nearly everyone has a budget. Awesome. Glad you were able to do that. One man's opinion. With this sentence in mind, now read my reply to the sentence below. I suggest you do the same regarding the sentence above. Then I will add, this is such a hypocritical statement. You almost always come on here telling other people what they should or shouldn't do. Yet you seem to be overly sensitive to it in reverse. Besides, I wasn't putting idea's in your mouth, I was simply telling you are wrong, price is NOT moot.
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Post by pedrocols on Sept 24, 2018 13:50:49 GMT -5
Just here waiting to see who is going to be the first one to post pics of his or her expensive speakers. You know you want to so just do it...😂😂🤔
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 24, 2018 13:57:10 GMT -5
Your opinion Bonzo.
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Post by mgbpuff on Sept 24, 2018 14:13:26 GMT -5
Because of the advance of technology, I think you get the best VALUE at $2000 or less. $1000 or less is mostly junk these days. But I have owned and presently own a wide variety of speakers in different price ranges. I have a pair of Revel Ultima Salon II that cost me $17,000 because I just had to have a full range Class A rated speaker just once in my life. These are driven with 550 watt amps. I also had to try Magnaplanars so I bought used a pair of 3.6R (with full ribbon tweeters) which I drive with Emotiva XPA-1. I have a full range single cone speaker in Cain & Cain Abbeys (Paid $900 used)that I drive with 8 watt single ended 300b amps and a pair of Essence Zu speakers ($3500) that I drive with a push pull 13 watt Melody amp. Finally, my oldest speakers (that I still use) are NHT 2.5 that I bought slightly banged up for $600 in 1996. The best value in all this bunch is the NHT 2.5. These speakers are captivating driven with a range of different amps, originally my old Marantz 8B, later Carver amps, and presently with a Cary AiOS integrated. I like the sound of all of them, but when I am willing to listen to the old NHT 2.5 when I own the Revels and the Magnapans, I have to admit the NHTs win on value. Having said that , the speakers that I listen to the most are the Maggies.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 24, 2018 14:51:06 GMT -5
To answer the question another way: "value" changes depending on a person's financial status. What has the most "value" to me might not be to you and vice versa. So again, price is moot to a question like this. Find what you like, buy what you can afford, and strive to be happy regardless of the price. If spending $50K is easy for you then do it. If spending $500 is difficult for you, then do that.
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Post by boomzilla on Sept 24, 2018 14:56:32 GMT -5
OK, gentlemen - judging from the responses, I haven't phrased my question accurately. Let me try again...
At this point in time, in what price range are the greatest speaker values per dollar found? This should be a mostly objective question.
And above that "price-point of diminishing returns," is the improvement in sound worth the extra money? - this is a mostly subjective question.
And yes, this IS where you should express your opinion.
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Post by pedrocols on Sept 24, 2018 14:58:44 GMT -5
To answer the question another way: "value" changes depending on a person's financial status. What has the most "value" to me might not be to you and vice versa. So again, price is moot to a question like this. Find what you like, buy what you can afford, and strive to be happy regardless of the price. If spending $50K is easy for you then do it. If spending $500 is difficult for you, then do that. What if spending either is easy..😁🤔
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 24, 2018 15:07:57 GMT -5
Should be, what price offers the greatest emotional RUSH.
Bill
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Post by monkumonku on Sept 24, 2018 15:16:42 GMT -5
OK, gentlemen - judging from the responses, I haven't phrased my question accurately. Let me try again... At this point in time, in what price range are the greatest speaker values per dollar found? This should be a mostly objective question. And above that "price-point of diminishing returns," is the improvement in sound worth the extra money? - this is a mostly subjective question. And yes, this IS where you should express your opinion. Gotta disagree about your saying the price range in which the greatest speaker value per dollar is found, is "mostly objective." If so, then there would be no need for a poll in the first place. There are too many variables, such as the actual cost of the speakers (different manufacturers have different markup percentages), your own financial situation, your listening preferences, the type of cabinet and its associated cost, etc. Even if you say granted, those things matter but "generally speaking" which range offers the greatest value, there are always going to be a ton of exceptions. And audiophile forums are where people love to go chasing after exceptions.
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