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Post by pedrocols on Sept 26, 2018 8:21:32 GMT -5
I think it would be better to pick speakers that cost exactly the same and decide which one is a better valie between the two.
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Post by amped on Sept 26, 2018 8:49:41 GMT -5
My 2 cents...In the past I was firmly entrenched in the "there is not that much difference in a $300 X Machine VS a $3,000 X Machine" Well after my last 2 purchases/trades I can firmly say "Poppycock"! My friends and fellow "budget audiophiles" I am here to tell you that after 30 +/- years of collecting audio gear I can attest that THERE IS A DIFFERENCE now let me reign in that enthusiasm a bit I should say I have adjusted my opinion a smidge. You see I am an Audio Bargain Hunter and after a few good turntable flips,Craigslist finds and clearing out some gear I had the good fortune to acquire an Audio Research Pre-amp that some sucker paid 13k for new and I bought it for $2,000 and a trade so about 55% off (w/trade) and I was amazed at the difference that it created in my system, I will not turn this into a review so I will stick to the facts, It wasn't a "yeah I'm going to justify this purchase to myself good" good it was and is that good and was that much of an improvement! The next example: I traded a very awesome Thorens TT to a guy who was getting out of digital and going back to analog for a $6,500 McIntosh SACD/CD Player (w/trade $0)and that was the most amazing example of before and after I have yet to experience in my audio life...So much so that I find myself buying CD and SACD alternatives to the vinyl I was once searching for! Ok...Don't get me wrong I still laugh as I peruse Audigon and other resellers and see 50k Amps and 200k Speakers not to mention 80k CD Players and truth be told I haven't heard a 350k system so I cant vouch for the sound of a system like that but I can tell you that in the reality zone of audio in my experience there is a solid and discernible difference in sound and build quality in a $300 CD Player and a $6,000 CD Player and this coming from a guy who still loves his Definitive Technology SC7000s Speakers and believe me I have auditioned many, many hi end speakers in the recent years and to me I haven't found any under 10k that come close so more $ does not always equate to more pleasure in sound! Now as a caveat to this story I will say that these are my examples and your mileage may vary and no ass kissing here but older Emo gear i.e. XPA series amps were amazing and the difference in my $10k (I paid $4k used) Bryston Amp and the 1k Emo Amps was not worth the difference in cost is the Bryston Better? Of Course just not 90% better!
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Post by pedrocols on Sept 26, 2018 9:39:40 GMT -5
I think the term 2x better or 3x better related to the cost is very misleading. Even if the speaker which is 5x more expensive is not 5x better it does not really matter if you are willing and happy to pay 5x more for the desired improvement.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Sept 26, 2018 10:32:14 GMT -5
I also just wanted to pop in here with something that should be obvious.... Sometimes you get what you pay for - and sometimes you don't. (And, sadly, this seems to be the case with audio gear more than some other things... for example cameras or sports cars.)
Sometimes expensive gear is a lot better than cheaper gear; sometimes it's a little bit better; but sometimes it's not better at all.
There is some very expensive audio gear that really is just a waste of money. Some of it just plain isn't better... and some of it is designed to appeal to a very specific narrow niche market. DO NOT fall into the trap of assuming that "a $5000 amplifier must sound better than a $1000 amplifier, and the only question is how much better". Sometimes the $5000 amplifier sounds just like the $1000 one... and sometimes it even sounds worse... Maybe it's more attractive, or is made better, or has a more prestigious brand name on the front, or maybe they're just hoping you won't actually listen to see if it sounds better or not.
And, when it comes to speakers, there is even more of an element of personal preference. Some people just like the way certain speakers sound... and it may not be the most expensive one that you like the best. In fact, especially when it comes to speakers, some of the most expensive products have their own "personality" - which you either love or hate... and that's a bit different than "better or worse".
We design our speakers to sound "detailed but neutral" and "accurate". We believe that the folded ribbon tweeters we use in our current models do a great job of letting you hear all the details without exaggerating any of them.
Likewise, we designed our subs to produce the range of frequencies they were designed to... without adding anything extra.
Some "high end" speakers are designed to be accurate, while others are obviously designed to "have a likeable personality"; we prefer accurate.
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Post by monkumonku on Sept 26, 2018 10:32:27 GMT -5
I think it would be better to pick speakers that cost exactly the same and decide which one is a better valie between the two. But then that destroys the whole premise of the survey question. Because if you have two speakers that cost exactly the same, should they not be equal in performance and value? If they are not, then how can you rank speaker performance based on cost? And then what about more expensive speakers that perform more poorly than less expensive speakers? Then the question arises as to what price is this comparison based on? The MSRP, street price, current discounts available, etc. So you have variability operating within the speakers themselves and how much it really cost to make them, the price you can buy them for, and what your own ear/brain preferences are for sound. Also, so very very very very much depends on if you have 0 awg speaker cables or not.
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Post by boomzilla on Sept 26, 2018 10:59:01 GMT -5
But then that destroys the whole premise of the survey question. Because if you have two speakers that cost exactly the same, should they not be equal in performance and value? They should - but I can guarantee that they are not equal in performance. For a simple comparison, there are a multitude of $1K / pair small bookshelf speakers that sound SIGNIFICANTLY different than the $1K / pair tower speakers. The towers, due to their design choices, normally deliver far more (quantitative, not qualitative) bass. But even with similarly configured speakers, say two pairs of $1K / pair three-way tower speakers, you'll still find some dogs and some standouts. And it's very fair to say that a top of the pile pair of $1K speakers will easily best the "average" $2K speakers. In fact, those "best" $1K speakers can even beat some of the worst $4K speakers. And so on... But if we're comparing the best $1K speakers to the best $2K speakers, it's probably fair to say that the best $2K speakers WILL sound better. The same with the best $2K speakers compared to the best $4K speakers. But beyond that price range the performance tends to level out. Yes, the best $10K speakers WILL beat the best $5K ones, but the difference between the two will be smaller. I'd contend that the difference between the $10K speakers and the $20K speakers would be even smaller. That was the point of this thread - as prices go up, the returns diminish. From the poll, the consensus seems to be that above the $2K price point, you're getting smaller improvements for ever more money. But that may be self-fulfilling prophecy - How many audiophiles (even on this Lounge) have had any chance to even hear $10K speakers? $20K ones? $50K ones? So it's very possible that those expensive speakers may offer better performance than we all suspect - but we just haven't had the opportunity to make the comparisons. Boom
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Post by pedrocols on Sept 26, 2018 11:07:49 GMT -5
I think it would be better to pick speakers that cost exactly the same and decide which one is a better valie between the two. But then that destroys the whole premise of the survey question. Because if you have two speakers that cost exactly the same, should they not be equal in performance and value? If they are not, then how can you rank speaker performance based on cost? And then what about more expensive speakers that perform more poorly than less expensive speakers? Then the question arises as to what price is this comparison based on? The MSRP, street price, current discounts available, etc. So you have variability operating within the speakers themselves and how much it really cost to make them, the price you can buy them for, and what your own ear/brain preferences are for sound. Also, so very very very very much depends on if you have 0 awg speaker cables or not. Well I was going to order 0 awg wire but could not decide between the $100 per foot or the .50 cents per foot. Any thoughts?...
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DYohn
Emo VIPs
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Post by DYohn on Sept 26, 2018 11:09:07 GMT -5
In my experience price simply does not matter - I have purchased speakers in the $1500 range (Phase Tech) that sounded better than some I then had in the $10,000 range (Revel) and I currently use $15,000 speakers (DeVore) because to my ears they out-perform the $35,000 Krell speakers they replaced. So it is simply NOT about money, it is not objective, it is all about the subjective performance in your room to your ears.
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,213
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Post by novisnick on Sept 26, 2018 11:21:27 GMT -5
I haven’t a clue as to how much money went into research, design and manufacturer of my Paradigm Studio 100’s. I happily paid a premium for the furniture grade finish on them.
First and foremost was their sound though! Bonus was their Rosenut finish.
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 26, 2018 12:08:19 GMT -5
I also just wanted to pop in here with something that should be obvious.... Sometimes you get what you pay for - and sometimes you don't. (And, sadly, this seems to be the case with audio gear more than some other things... for example cameras or sports cars.)
Sometimes expensive gear is a lot better than cheaper gear; sometimes it's a little bit better; but sometimes it's not better at all.
There is some very expensive audio gear that really is just a waste of money. Some of it just plain isn't better... and some of it is designed to appeal to a very specific narrow niche market. DO NOT fall into the trap of assuming that "a $5000 amplifier must sound better than a $1000 amplifier, and the only question is how much better". Sometimes the $5000 amplifier sounds just like the $1000 one... and sometimes it even sounds worse... Maybe it's more attractive, or is made better, or has a more prestigious brand name on the front, or maybe they're just hoping you won't actually listen to see if it sounds better or not.
And, when it comes to speakers, there is even more of an element of personal preference. Some people just like the way certain speakers sound... and it may not be the most expensive one that you like the best. In fact, especially when it comes to speakers, some of the most expensive products have their own "personality" - which you either love or hate... and that's a bit different than "better or worse".
We design our speakers to sound "detailed but neutral" and "accurate". We believe that the folded ribbon tweeters we use in our current models do a great job of letting you hear all the details without exaggerating any of them.
Likewise, we designed our subs to produce the range of frequencies they were designed to... without adding anything extra.
Some "high end" speakers are designed to be accurate, while others are obviously designed to "have a likeable personality"; we prefer accurate.
......and, those “likeable personalty” loudspeakers that wowed customers in all likelihood, coined the term: “Listening Fatigue” Bill
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 26, 2018 12:26:53 GMT -5
Well I was going to order 0 awg wire but could not decide between the $100 per foot or the .50 cents per foot. Any thoughts?... I'm sure there is a secret formula somewhere that will tell you want to do, because any decision you make on your own will be wrong.
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Post by davidl81 on Sept 26, 2018 12:39:30 GMT -5
In my experience price simply does not matter - I have purchased speakers in the $1500 range (Phase Tech) that sounded better than some I then had in the $10,000 range (Revel) and I currently use $15,000 speakers (DeVore) because to my ears they out-perform the $35,000 Krell speakers they replaced. So it is simply NOT about money, it is not objective, it is all about the subjective performance in your room to your ears. I think that like anything there is some sort of minimum level of entry to get a quality product. I can't think of any $300 a pair speakers that would be on par with most good $2000ish a pair speakers. Although I do agree with your basic premise, once you get into the $1000+ and up range the differences are quite small and to many a $1500 speaker can sound better than a $10,000 speaker.
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Post by davidl81 on Sept 26, 2018 12:42:27 GMT -5
But then that destroys the whole premise of the survey question. Because if you have two speakers that cost exactly the same, should they not be equal in performance and value? They should - but I can guarantee that they are not equal in performance. For a simple comparison, there are a multitude of $1K / pair small bookshelf speakers that sound SIGNIFICANTLY different than the $1K / pair tower speakers. The towers, due to their design choices, normally deliver far more (quantitative, not qualitative) bass. But even with similarly configured speakers, say two pairs of $1K / pair three-way tower speakers, you'll still find some dogs and some standouts. And it's very fair to say that a top of the pile pair of $1K speakers will easily best the "average" $2K speakers. In fact, those "best" $1K speakers can even beat some of the worst $4K speakers. And so on... But if we're comparing the best $1K speakers to the best $2K speakers, it's probably fair to say that the best $2K speakers WILL sound better. The same with the best $2K speakers compared to the best $4K speakers. But beyond that price range the performance tends to level out. Yes, the best $10K speakers WILL beat the best $5K ones, but the difference between the two will be smaller. I'd contend that the difference between the $10K speakers and the $20K speakers would be even smaller. That was the point of this thread - as prices go up, the returns diminish. From the poll, the consensus seems to be that above the $2K price point, you're getting smaller improvements for ever more money. But that may be self-fulfilling prophecy - How many audiophiles (even on this Lounge) have had any chance to even hear $10K speakers? $20K ones? $50K ones? So it's very possible that those expensive speakers may offer better performance than we all suspect - but we just haven't had the opportunity to make the comparisons. Boom I would add how many people have heard 10K+ speakers in the same environment as a $2k pair and a $50k pair.
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Post by pedrocols on Sept 26, 2018 13:01:06 GMT -5
Well I was going to order 0 awg wire but could not decide between the $100 per foot or the .50 cents per foot. Any thoughts?... I'm sure there is a secret formula somewhere that will tell you want to do, because any decision you make on your own will be wrong. Precisely! That's why I post it here publicly. I don't think I can do it alone.🤔
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Post by pedrocols on Sept 26, 2018 13:26:59 GMT -5
I still can't wrap my head about the thought of a 100k speakers being a bargain like you read in some magazines. How can something that cost as much as a house and a car can be a bargain? Why not just say that it is expensive as there's nothing wrong if it is.
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Post by flatpicker on Sept 26, 2018 13:59:35 GMT -5
I think that like anything there is some sort of minimum level of entry to get a quality product. I can't think of any $300 a pair speakers that would be on par with most good $2000ish a pair speakers. Although I do agree with your basic premise, once you get into the $1000+ and up range the differences are quite small and to many a $1500 speaker can sound better than a $10,000 speaker. The old ancient law of diminishing returns... but high ROI does happen for the persistent seeker, fairly often methinks!
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Post by davidl81 on Sept 26, 2018 14:43:46 GMT -5
I still can't wrap my head about the thought of a 100k speakers being a bargain like you read in some magazines. How can something that cost as much as a house and a car can be a bargain? Why not just say that it is expensive as there's nothing wrong if it is. Like anything many reviewers are trying to tailor the story to the customer buying the speakers. People with the amount of money to buy 100k speakers still want things they consider a good "value". They want 100k speakers that sound as good as 200k speakers etc. So if they read a review that says the speakers represent a great value at 100k they feel as though they are getting a "deal" on those speakers (and they very well may be getting a good relative value). The reviewers have an incentive to write good things about the speakers since they get access to these speakers free from the vendors (In most cases) and those speaker vendors want the reviewers to say good things about their speakers. If a reviews writes a negative review, well now that publication may get cut off from getting future models to review in the future.
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Post by pedrocols on Sept 26, 2018 15:08:53 GMT -5
I still can't wrap my head about the thought of a 100k speakers being a bargain like you read in some magazines. How can something that cost as much as a house and a car can be a bargain? Why not just say that it is expensive as there's nothing wrong if it is. Like anything many reviewers are trying to tailor the story to the customer buying the speakers. People with the amount of money to buy 100k speakers still want things they consider a good "value". They want 100k speakers that sound as good as 200k speakers etc. So if they read a review that says the speakers represent a great value at 100k they feel as though they are getting a "deal" on those speakers (and they very well may be getting a good relative value). The reviewers have an incentive to write good things about the speakers since they get access to these speakers free from the vendors (In most cases) and those speaker vendors want the reviewers to say good things about their speakers. If a reviews writes a negative review, well now that publication may get cut off from getting future models to review in the future. Kind of like a cliché. So sad having to do business like that when all they seem to be doing is deceiving folks and potential buyers.
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Post by davidl81 on Sept 26, 2018 15:35:31 GMT -5
Like anything many reviewers are trying to tailor the story to the customer buying the speakers. People with the amount of money to buy 100k speakers still want things they consider a good "value". They want 100k speakers that sound as good as 200k speakers etc. So if they read a review that says the speakers represent a great value at 100k they feel as though they are getting a "deal" on those speakers (and they very well may be getting a good relative value). The reviewers have an incentive to write good things about the speakers since they get access to these speakers free from the vendors (In most cases) and those speaker vendors want the reviewers to say good things about their speakers. If a reviews writes a negative review, well now that publication may get cut off from getting future models to review in the future. Kind of like a cliché. So sad having to do business like that when all they seem to be doing is deceiving folks and potential buyers. What I do find funny is trying to find a "bad" review of a set of $2000+ speakers. For example when I bought these Mirage speakers I searched and read every review I could find and all of them had great things to say about the speakers. They could not believe that they were selling for "only" $2500 each. Speakers that good should at least sell for $5000 each. A few years later they were selling on Woot for $799 each.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 26, 2018 15:55:11 GMT -5
I still can't wrap my head about the thought of a 100k speakers being a bargain like you read in some magazines. How can something that cost as much as a house and a car can be a bargain? Why not just say that it is expensive as there's nothing wrong if it is. It depends on the zeroes before the decimal point in your bank account. I know people who spend $100K on frivolous stuff without thinking about it.
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