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Post by craigl59 on Sept 26, 2018 16:48:43 GMT -5
davidl81 writes:
"The reviewers have an incentive to write good things about the speakers since they get access to these speakers free from the vendors (In most cases) and those speaker vendors want the reviewers to say good things about their speakers. If a reviews writes a negative review, well now that publication may get cut off from getting future models to review in the future."
+1 and I never read a negative review of any audio product these days. Am so old I remember back in the 1970s and 1980s when reviewers would make names for themselves by being hard on products. The reasons above, along with advertising gambits and equipment give-aways have made most reviews suspect to me.
SO, instead, have adopted the approach of researching threads to find actual owners who buy a product and then relate their experiences. This is also becoming rare, but it has proven much more helpful when the Internet buying experience requires you to purchase without hearing first.
AND, DYohn, can you point those high-rollers in my direction? Have got some valuable early music performing editions that I would part with for a measly ten thousand or so...
...BTB how was China?
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Post by pedrocols on Sept 26, 2018 17:11:00 GMT -5
I still can't wrap my head about the thought of a 100k speakers being a bargain like you read in some magazines. How can something that cost as much as a house and a car can be a bargain? Why not just say that it is expensive as there's nothing wrong if it is. It depends on the zeroes before the decimal point in your bank account. I know people who spend $100K on frivolous stuff without thinking about it. I don't see anything wrong with that. However, there is no need to deceive potential buyers because if they have the cash they will spend it anyway.
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Post by Cogito on Sept 26, 2018 17:24:25 GMT -5
IMO Speakers have the MOST influence in a systems performance and in my case, make up the largest part of my budget (About 60%). In this day and age of computer assisted design and modern materials, fantastic performance can be had for relatively little money. $2,000-3,000 is the sweet spot. Just look at at the likes of Magnepan, Monitor Audio, KEF, Wharfedale, ELAC and many others. Computer assisted design helps, but the goals, trade-offs, and experience of the designer plays a significant role in how well the computer aided modeling is utilized. The physics of loudspeaker design are quite mature and well understood. Computer assisted design will get you most of the way towards your design goal. and what often took years to design can literally be done in days. This allows a LOT of flexibility with experimenting with different materials, cost performance ratios and even aesthetics without investing huge amounts of man-hours. There's truly no comparison between today's best speakers with the best of what was available just a couple decades ago (This is based upon my 40+ years in the hobby). While the designs are all essentially the same, the materials and fabrication techniques make a huge difference.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 26, 2018 18:20:23 GMT -5
AND, DYohn, can you point those high-rollers in my direction? Have got some valuable early music performing editions that I would part with for a measly ten thousand or so... ...BTB how was China? If I hear about anyone with interest in such I will. Shanghai is an interesting place. It changes all the time yet it hasn't changed since Pudong was created 25 years ago. The food is GREAT.
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Post by pknaz on Sept 26, 2018 18:21:48 GMT -5
Computer assisted design helps, but the goals, trade-offs, and experience of the designer plays a significant role in how well the computer aided modeling is utilized. The physics of loudspeaker design are quite mature and well understood. Computer assisted design will get you most of the way towards your design goal. and what often took years to design can literally be done in days. This allows a LOT of flexibility with experimenting with different materials, cost performance ratios and even aesthetics without investing huge amounts of man-hours. There's truly no comparison between today's best speakers with the best of what was available just a couple decades ago (This is based upon my 40+ years in the hobby). While the designs are all essentially the same, the materials and fabrication techniques make a huge difference. From a manufacturing stand point, sure. What makes the most difference in how a speaker sounds, though, is the crossover. There have been massive improvements in computer assisted design of crossovers in the last decade. A person who is inexperienced at crossover design or who's company has given them specific design criteria such as "flat on-axis response" more than likely wouldn't produce a good sounding speaker. Again, though, not all goals and objectives for a loud speaker equate to "the best possible sound for a given MSRP" - some goals/objectives might be aesthetics, size constraints etc.
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Post by DYohn on Sept 26, 2018 18:59:01 GMT -5
^^^ The post above should be repeated over and over in every discussion about loudspeaker design. Nicely stated.
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 27, 2018 2:32:20 GMT -5
...If a reviews writes a negative review, well now that publication may get cut off from getting future models to review in the future. Really? A manufacturer is going to give up the totally FREE international publicity of a review because one reviewer didn't like one product? Really?
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Post by pedrocols on Sept 27, 2018 7:25:36 GMT -5
...If a reviews writes a negative review, well now that publication may get cut off from getting future models to review in the future. Really? A manufacturer is going to give up the totally FREE international publicity of a review because one reviewer didn't like one product? Really? Bad publicity vs no publicity. What's worse?
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Post by davidl81 on Sept 27, 2018 7:40:29 GMT -5
...If a reviews writes a negative review, well now that publication may get cut off from getting future models to review in the future. Really? A manufacturer is going to give up the totally FREE international publicity of a review because one reviewer didn't like one product? Really? I am not saying all reviewers are like this, and I can totally understand your view point. My issue is more that the overwhelming majority of home audio reviews are extremely positive towards the products. So much so that if is everything is great, then I have trouble thinking that all of the reviews are 100% honest. As a consumer it makes it tough to base a purchase decision on a review when I feel as though many of the reviews are slanted positively towards to manufacture.
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Post by KeithL on Sept 27, 2018 9:32:37 GMT -5
I think you're missing what he said.
A manufacturer isn't "going to give up getting reviewed because of one bad review". However, if they notice that a certain specific reviewer doesn't like their products, they simply won't send review samples to THAT reviewer. In fact, they probably won't even bother if that reviewer has a history of not being impressed by that sort of product.
(And, yes, since most manufacturers have somewhat consistent design philosophies, if he or she doesn't like one of their products, it's a good chance he won't like the next one.)
And, from the reviewer's point of view, he or she has little incentive to request a review sample of a product that he or she seems unlikely to like. (People who like tube amps tend to review tube amps; people who like planar speakers tend to review planar speakers; why would they go to the bother to ship and set up something they don't expect to like?) And, of course, magazine reviewers work on contract - so they review what they're told to review (nobody would ever suggest that they might also be told what to like).
You also need to understand that, especially today, there are lots of people who either fancy themselves "reviewers", or just say they are to get the opportunity to play with equipment for nothing. And most manufacturers have a limited budget for sending out review samples. Because of these factors, there is often a sort of courting process, where the manufacturer and the reviewer "meet" on the phone, and try to figure out if "they're a good match". And, if it seems like the reviewer doesn't like that sort of product, or that company's philosophy, or just doesn't seem all that interested, then the review doesn't take place.
There is also a distinct combination of expectation bias, and informed self interest. The bottom line is that there is very rarely a situation where "everybody wants the review to take place on general principle".
There is little incentive from any direction to "do a bad review" (because nobody actually seems to benefit from a bad review). (If the reviewer actually gets the product, and hates it, it's much simpler just to return it and decline to review it.)
Nowadays, for example, a magazine may do a review of "Ten Speakers Under $500".... but the days when an audiophile version of Consumer Reports will do a review on "ALL Speakers Under $500"
or "The Top Ten Selling Speakers Under $500" are basically gone. These days, someone will propose an article on "Comparing Ten Speakers Under $500"; if it's approved, the author and the sponsor will agree on a "short list" of a few dozen products to look at. They'll contact the manufacturers; some will decline; some won't answer. And, yes, the manufacturers who don't expect that reviewer to like their product will be
among the ones who decline. The sponsor, and the author, will then pick out their ten favorites from the positive responses, and then review the ones that actually show up. The reality is that, quite often,
the guy who is most likely to review every product is the one who's just doing it for fun, but doesn't really have a lot of followers. And the ones who are well informed, and have the
test equipment to take measurements, and the readership, are "commercial reviewers" working for magazines... who often have their own agendas.
There are a few notable exceptions, who are reasonably knowledgeable, reasonably unbiased, and some of whom DO attract a significant following. However, even then, reading the reviews is usually free, and they make their living from PAID SPONSORS. (And companies whose products receive lousy reviews are unlikely to ever become paid sponsors.)
...If a reviews writes a negative review, well now that publication may get cut off from getting future models to review in the future. Really? A manufacturer is going to give up the totally FREE international publicity of a review because one reviewer didn't like one product? Really?
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Post by KeithL on Sept 27, 2018 10:24:10 GMT -5
There's only one problem with reviews from actual owners - and it's something called "self selection bias".
For some products the requirements and expectations are pretty simple. For example, if a pen arrives broken, or stops writing in a week, odds are it's not a very good pen.
However, some products depend heavily on user preference, and this is very much the case for speakers. For example, if I were rating the sound of a set of vintage Klipsch speakers, I would say they're "efficient, somewhat shouty, and have a lot of coloration"... and give them a solid "thumbs down".
While someone else would rave about their "wonderful efficiency and clear revealing midrange"... and rate them quite highly.
Obviously, in that case, the review is a matter of personal preference. And, if I was a professional reviewer, and you knew the sort of sound I like, you could gain valuable information from my opinion there. However, if this was an Amazon review, and you didn't know my particular preferences, it wouldn't tell you much about how they actually sound. (It would sort of give you a hint about their strengths and weaknesses, but probably wouldn't tell you enough to figure out if you'd actually like them or not.)
Speakers sound very different from each other. And different people consider different characteristics to be important to them.
More importantly, they vary in a wide variety of different ways. (I value accuracy a lot; I care about low distortion and clarity; I like plenty of bass capability, as long as it isn't boomy; but I don't care that much about efficiency and, to me, imaging is relatively unimportant.)
So, if you read reviews of a certain speaker on Amazon.... You'll find reviews from people who bought them, loved them, and gave them a great review... And reviews from people who bought them, though they sounded awful, and returned them... But what you won't find many of are balanced reviews, by people who are comparing them to other similar speakers... You may find a few people who have auditioned several different speakers and accurately relate their experiences... However, they will be in a minority, and the ones who tell you enough details to reference their preferences and how they compare to your preferences, will be an even smaller minority.
And, of course, reviews that mention things we mostly all agree on, like the quality of the finish, will be more useful that "who liked it and who didn't".
Today, to be quite blunt, the number of magazines is dwindling... Which makes it very difficult for a reviewer to be continuously and profitably employed based on "accuracy" alone. (And that situation is made worse by the fact that, because the whole "audiophile arena" has become so subjective, "objective accuracy" has become difficult to define or detect anyway.)
I should remind you all, though that.... - It's more likely that most reviewers really just avoid reviewing products they don't like (so it's not that they fib about the bad ones). - Many products really have gotten quite good over the years (so, for example, compared to years ago, most mid-priced amplifiers really do sound quite good) - There's little incentive for a reviewer to try to impress people by bothering to publish bad reviews about bad products
davidl81 writes: "The reviewers have an incentive to write good things about the speakers since they get access to these speakers free from the vendors (In most cases) and those speaker vendors want the reviewers to say good things about their speakers. If a reviews writes a negative review, well now that publication may get cut off from getting future models to review in the future." +1 and I never read a negative review of any audio product these days. Am so old I remember back in the 1970s and 1980s when reviewers would make names for themselves by being hard on products. The reasons above, along with advertising gambits and equipment give-aways have made most reviews suspect to me. SO, instead, have adopted the approach of researching threads to find actual owners who buy a product and then relate their experiences. This is also becoming rare, but it has proven much more helpful when the Internet buying experience requires you to purchase without hearing first. AND, DYohn, can you point those high-rollers in my direction? Have got some valuable early music performing editions that I would part with for a measly ten thousand or so... ...BTB how was China?
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Post by craigl59 on Sept 27, 2018 10:57:33 GMT -5
Keith: In my world I have found that reviewers are under pressure from any number of sources to provide a designated type of response. Assuming that the reviewers primary goal is to accurately and honestly assess a product is a leap of faith these days -- but you certainly might be right and I congratulate you on your positive perspective. For me, I place MUCH MORE emphasis on responses from actual owners who describe their experiences. If the descriptions are factual and literal, they are almost always the same ones I have. Note this with multiple reviews on Amazon as well. If you sift through these for a product, searching for accuracy and intent, you can get an accurate sense of the product's nature. REGARDLESS, have adopted a number of approaches to get the highest audio value and will share one of them now. Over the years have dealt with a number of audio companies. As you spend time with their staff and see their product development you learn to either trust them or recognize their failures. Emotiva has provided me one killer product after another and stood behind the small problems I have had 100%. AS A RESULT, I will buy any product of theirs I can use in a minute -- and this is the case with many of the Lounge contributors -- who anxiously await each new offering. This is because we have trust in the company. I also have formed this level of trust with RME and Tekton. Buy products from them regularly and never worry about the execution. But I don't trust reviewers, know that any publication that operates primarily on advertising revenues is subject to manipulation, and have seen multiple cases in which positive reviews were out-and-out bought -- the classic example in the corporate word are the JDPower "awards." So we don't agree on this issue but I always benefit from your clear thinking and helpful posts -- they are the best.
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Post by bluemeanies on Sept 27, 2018 18:53:39 GMT -5
First I based my purchase of my B&W's on sound, then design both inside, crossover, inside framing and design of the cabinet and the speaker cabinet itself. Mid-range and low end are my speaker choices and how the speaker was made and with what material. Those questions I have asked of many speaker auditions. I LOVE B&W speakers...My choice. Everyone has a favorite. Price has no concern to me in my initial search for the perfect sound..for that magic.
In my reading Booms post I wonder if the underlying comment perhaps the elephant in the room...people are crazy to spend more than 2k for speakers. That's is my opinion and and in no way am undermining Boom. I respect his reviews and I enjoy his posts very much.
Money is relative...if one has it they spend it. If we are discussing the cost of speakers why not the cost of EMOTIVA anticipated new RMC-1 @. $5,000😕 IMO I enjoy my 7.1 processor at less than a third of the price. There are many good processors out there for a lot less money...BUT if you have the money then why not?
Are $10,000 speakers worth it? Let me say this and I forgot to mention another important factor "resale value" I do not hear to many people address this "resale value" issue. I purchased my first pair of B&W speaker (804S) for $4000.00.I had them for 9 years...pristine condition, orginal boxes and manuals still intact. I sold them for $2400.00. I then purchased my 803D2's. The new D3's were coming out. I was able to secure a purchase price of $7000.00. Minus my $2400.00 from my 804S speaker my out of pocket expense was $4600.00 The art of the deal! And yes they sound MAGNIFICENT, and I do NOT FEEL a 2-4k speaker could come close to the sound quality or craftsmanship of B&W products made in the UK 🇬🇧
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 27, 2018 21:10:03 GMT -5
In my reading Booms post I wonder if the underlying comment perhaps the elephant in the room...people are crazy to spend more than 2k for speakers... No, I don't think that. But I DO think that never before could one get such great performance at that price point. And I have no criticism of those who spend more (or less) than that on speakers.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 27, 2018 22:36:44 GMT -5
Maybe one of the best sounding speakers I ever owned was the ESS AMT1b. I bought them in 1978 for as I recall around $1500. Truest astounding.
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Post by bluemeanies on Sept 28, 2018 4:03:54 GMT -5
Maybe one of the best sounding speakers I ever owned was the ESS AMT1b. I bought them in 1978 for as I recall around $1500. Truest astounding. That's 1978... a while ago...what do you think those speakers would cost now brand new if they were just introduced to the marketplace. I purchased a pair of AVANCE ESPILONS MONITOR 2way speakers for $1000.00. They were great speakers..so clear with a decent low end. so long ago I cannot remember. My friend bought a pair and he still has them in his bedroom and they still sound awesome. I gave mine to my brother in law...damn I regret that!!😂😂 I guess what I will say is that there are many good speakers out there under...say the $5000.00 price range even $2000.00 (Salk, Philharmonic, and Tekton )but IMHO comparing them to full range speakers like the B&W 803D2's is futile.
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Post by bluemeanies on Sept 28, 2018 4:08:16 GMT -5
In my reading Booms post I wonder if the underlying comment perhaps the elephant in the room...people are crazy to spend more than 2k for speakers... No, I don't think that. But I DO think that never before could one get such great performance at that price point. And I have no criticism of those who spend more (or less) than that on speakers. I did not participate in your poll b/c for me I believe there are many other factors besides costs when purchasing speakers or any audio equipment.
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Post by pedrocols on Sept 28, 2018 8:30:10 GMT -5
I truly believe people buy 50k speakers not for how they sound but just because they are 50k. You can argue all you want about it but there is some truth about it. I have read reviews and pics of stereo systems that you can definitely tell they are just for looks. I have also read reviews of speakers in the 2k range outperforming speakers in 20k range like the the speakers I currently own.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 28, 2018 8:45:11 GMT -5
Maybe one of the best sounding speakers I ever owned was the ESS AMT1b. I bought them in 1978 for as I recall around $1500. Truest astounding. That's 1978... a while ago...what do you think those speakers would cost now brand new esslabsusa.com/speakers/The modern equivalent is $4500 a pair.
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Post by jackfish on Sept 28, 2018 9:21:20 GMT -5
$1500 in 1978 is $5800 today.
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