dan397
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 3
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Post by dan397 on Oct 4, 2018 12:08:07 GMT -5
This is my first post here since this is my first Emotiva product. I could write a novel about how I ended up with this amp, but I want to cut to the chase with some feedback for Emotiva right here at the top. I'm a software engineer and an R&D group manager, so I am making my comments as someone who develops new engineering products but not an amplifier expert.
First of all, the amp generally sounds good. I have more detailed comments below. Second, as an engineering R&D manager, it's really obvious what the problem is with Gen3 in the marketplace. Emotiva made going from gen2 to gen3 about making changes that only the engineers at Emotiva cared about, not the customers. The new power supply may be cheaper and lighter and run less hot, but nobody in the marketplace asked for that. If anything, the customers trust heavy toroidal transformers and distrust switching power supplies, so Emotiva put this product in a perception hole right from the gate. On top of that, Emotiva didn't even claim any sort of performance enhancements that customers might care about, whether perceptual / audiophile-oriented or numerical / improved specifications. So really there's no reason for anyone to get excited about this thing. Add in the tepid Stereophile and THX tests, and all I can say is that gen4 better come really soon for this company. Preferably in the form of improved modules that can be put in the gen3 chassis, which might be something gen3 customers would get excited about. :-) That would also help prove that the gen3 modular architecture accomplished something useful.
That's my main point, but if anyone cares about why I got the amp what I think of it, here goes: we have a home theater / surround sound room upstairs, and a large open first floor where I wanted to enhance our 2 channel / music capability. Oops, I kinda blew the whole upgrade budget on the speakers (new Revel PerformaBe F228be's) and had a few older 100 WPC amps available, but wanted more power for those big boys. I figured I'd go with a "good value" high power amp for now and upgrade later if I felt the need, so I went with the Emotiva based on general reputation and value.
My other choices from my personal "basement electronics store" were a Marantz MM7055 5-channel amp that used to be in the home theater, a NAD 2400PE 2x100WPC (ancient, just fun to check it out), a 2 channel Balanced Audio Technology VK-200 from 2000 ($3500 MSRP!). That BAT runs HOT, needs a lot of space, and doesn't have a trigger on/off, so it's a pain to integrate into a family-friendly system, hence its voyage to the basement. With the age of the BAT, I took it to a local amplifier expert for inspection and tune-up if needed. He hooked it up to his bench equipment and promptly proclaimed it "the worst expensive amplifier ever made." He's a measurement guy not an audiophile obviously; look at the rave reviews about the sound online.
Versus these other amps, the Emotiva sounds more neutral, "forward" and punchy. The sound stage almost feels like it starts halfway between me and the speakers. The VK-200 is known for its tube-like sound with detailed but more laid-back presentation; I'm sure the engineer would say I am just hearing the distortion (specified and measured 1% THD?!). The Marantz and NAD sound very similar to each other and somewhere in between the VK-200 and XPA-2 in presentation. Subjectively I found the Emotiva to have the biggest soundstage and a lot of punch but the sound is dry and almost analytical, whereas the other amps present a bit smoother and more musical sound without losing detail. For now I have the Emotiva integrated in the system, but I wasn't completely sold and might swap it out.
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Post by craigl59 on Oct 4, 2018 12:21:50 GMT -5
Interesting and knowledgeable post. Have been searching for the perfect amp for 45+ years and, as you do, have a number of prior attempts by Hafler, Denon, and others in storage. Was recently able to purchase four of the XPA-1 gen 2s during their closeout. In Class A mode this is the best amplifier I have ever heard -- period. The estimable Garbulky on this thread offers the same assessment. Give one a listen if you can find one. If you can find them used, buy two...
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Post by pedrocols on Oct 4, 2018 12:58:44 GMT -5
If you ask me I just like to relax and let the tubes do their thang.
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Post by brubacca on Oct 4, 2018 13:50:20 GMT -5
You have kind of hit the nail on the head with Emotiva amps. Very neutral and sounding a bit analytical. This is the market they are going for. KeithL will be around at any time touting how you want straight wire with gain. Thats what they design and what you get. Many here like that sound (or lack of sound).
Its the classic american sound. Lots of detail and accuracy.
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 4, 2018 14:02:10 GMT -5
I'm perfectly happy with my 10 watt class A / 500 watt class A/B XPA-1 gen 1 amps. I happen to believe that the level of biasing in the Gen 1 allows the most linear part of the output devices to predominate. The higher biasing of the 60 watt class A gen 2 biases so high that it uses almost the entire characteristic of the output devices and therefore the more non linear regions. Same with the gen 3 (but I hate the power supply). So give me either the Gen 1 or the Gen 2 (operated in normal A/B mode.
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Post by garbulky on Oct 4, 2018 14:10:10 GMT -5
I'm perfectly happy with my 10 watt class A / 500 watt class A/B XPA-1 gen 1 amps. I happen to believe that the level of biasing in the Gen 1 allows the most linear part of the output devices to predominate. The higher biasing of the 60 watt class A gen 2 biases so high that it uses almost the entire characteristic of the output devices and therefore the more non linear regions. Same with the gen 3 (but I hate the power supply). So give me either the Gen 1 or the Gen 2 (operated in normal A/B mode. Have you tried the gen 2 in class A mode? Though I haven't been able to compare it to the gen 1 in regular mode with with its 10 watts class A output, I do prefer the gen 2 in class A mode over the class AB mode in the gen 2. However at this level, you can't readily identify - oh it's in class A mode or AB mode. There's no easy way to tell. Like you can't say this is less clear or something. Even if you flipped the switch yourself there isn't an instant "ah ha!" moment. Over a period of time, I find myself more immersed in class A mode and things feel a bit more "dimensional" or 3d. For me, over a long period of time the class A mode is an important distinction and it does bring something new to the table. It provides a more immersive or natural sounding experience. The difference however is easily masked if I don't have my speakers and room treatments placed carefully etc.
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Post by routlaw on Oct 4, 2018 14:21:50 GMT -5
Interesting take on things folks. But to my way of thinking if you want something that does not sound accurate and would prefer "colored sound" why not just introduce a graphic equalizer into the loop and dial in the sound you want. This is what recording engineers do on a daily basis. Might even save a bundle on buying expensive cables while you're at it.
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Post by routlaw on Oct 4, 2018 14:27:29 GMT -5
@ Garbulky: Many people as you probably know don't hear any difference between the Class A mode with switch flipped, and basic Class A/B mode and while the difference is sort of subtle still I can hear or detect the difference instantly. To my ears it puts more flesh on the bones, a bit richer and more involving, while Class A/B seems just a tad thinner. There may be measurable differences in Class A mode and probably to the detriment but I still prefer it for two channel audio.
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Post by leonski on Oct 4, 2018 14:35:56 GMT -5
Dan397, the original poster, might be on to something. Switching PS is kind of a black hole to most consumers, me included. OH! I know they work and well, but ask me to look at one that isn't working right? ZILCH. At least with a conventional, linear PS, I could look for stuff like bulged PS caps, and test the bridge diodes. Fuses need a meter for perfection unless obviously 'blown'. (some don't show problems) but can be replaced. Even measure various voltages.
I think ONE of the drives behind the new stuff was WEIGHT. This is a double edged sword. The end-user must tote around and place an amp potentially in excess of 60lb. Not an easy solo task. And SHIPPING which is its own black hole of claims, counter claims and packing or not or whatever anyone can prove, or raise question with. ME? I'd ship the heaviest amps on a pallet and the heck with expense. You simply Can Not build a High-Bias A/AB amp without lots of heatsink. More weight and cost. Find somebody with a pickup and go pick it up at the shippers office. Save a few bucks and not have the darn thing dropped off on your curb or sidewalk to the house or apartment.
One potential criticism of the OP? I don't get the feeling of coherent system goals. Maybe it's just me, but the gear choices span quite a range. I'd just be curious to know how much live music the OP listens to.
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Post by craigl59 on Oct 4, 2018 14:40:01 GMT -5
I'm perfectly happy with my 10 watt class A / 500 watt class A/B XPA-1 gen 1 amps. I happen to believe that the level of biasing in the Gen 1 allows the most linear part of the output devices to predominate. The higher biasing of the 60 watt class A gen 2 biases so high that it uses almost the entire characteristic of the output devices and therefore the more non linear regions. Same with the gen 3 (but I hate the power supply). So give me either the Gen 1 or the Gen 2 (operated in normal A/B mode. Have you tried the gen 2 in class A mode? Though I haven't been able to compare it to the gen 1 in regular mode with with its 10 watts class A output, I do prefer the gen 2 in class A mode over the class AB mode in the gen 2. However at this level, you can't readily identify - oh it's in class A mode or AB mode. There's no easy way to tell. Like you can't say this is less clear or something. Even if you flipped the switch yourself there isn't an instant "ah ha!" moment. Over a period of time, I find myself more immersed in class A mode and things feel a bit more "dimensional" or 3d. For me, over a long period of time the class A mode is an important distinction and it does bring something new to the table. It provides a more immersive or natural sounding experience. The difference however is easily masked if I don't have my speakers and room treatments placed carefully etc. Switch back and forth between A and A/B modes during a typical day to use the more economical A/B for TV and casual listening then, when the nightly concert starts, go to class A. Here's what I notice. How apparent the class A sound is will be dependent on the accuracy of your system. If you listen to a lot of acoustic instruments in a well-tuned room (I use REW and lots of wall treatments) class A strikes me as a large difference: instruments are more accurate timbrally and are "fuller" in sound; there is a richness and accuracy to strings in particular that is often described as "sweet," BUT, most importantly, the soundstage is much improved -- particularly as regards depth. With class A you will notice winds and brass in orchestral textures placed back in the soundstage and strings and soloists towards the front. This depth is marked and when you switch back to A/B you notice how two-dimensional the soundstage becomes. In my particular system you CAN distinguish between A and A/B and whenever I switch over I think "boy, that's better."
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Post by 405x5 on Oct 4, 2018 14:45:22 GMT -5
" I am making my comments as someone who develops new engineering products but not an amplifier expert." Fair enough "Emotiva made going from gen2 to gen3 about making changes that only the engineers at Emotiva cared about, not the customers." Really?? what makes you say this? "The new power supply may be cheaper and lighter and run less hot, but nobody in the marketplace asked for that." "customers trust heavy toroidal transformers and distrust switching power supplies" How do you know the average customer even gave a thought to this spec?
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Post by craigl59 on Oct 4, 2018 14:50:34 GMT -5
Let me add one other component to class A "success." With class A you are getting the entire waveform with no simplification/doubling as you do with A/B. As a result, you will get whatever "B" part of the waveform is being transmitted by your source. This is critical. If you have not maintained the entire waveform during ripping, storage, conversion, or DAC processes, then class A will reproduce whatever is there but the overall improvement will not be great. SO, I find it necessary to keep all rips as wave files, undisturbed, and use room correction as convolution files, also operating as wave file adjustments (REW and JRiver do this well together and at a high-res level). This is another reason why class A can be so powerful -- if the original wave file as captured in the recording process is duplicated in its entirety in your room, you will notice the improvement to class A and it will have the effects noted above. MP3, APE, and other file formats sufficiently alter the waveform so there is little reason to bother with class A.
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 4, 2018 14:52:13 GMT -5
I'm perfectly happy with my 10 watt class A / 500 watt class A/B XPA-1 gen 1 amps. I happen to believe that the level of biasing in the Gen 1 allows the most linear part of the output devices to predominate. The higher biasing of the 60 watt class A gen 2 biases so high that it uses almost the entire characteristic of the output devices and therefore the more non linear regions. Same with the gen 3 (but I hate the power supply). So give me either the Gen 1 or the Gen 2 (operated in normal A/B mode. Have you tried the gen 2 in class A mode? Though I haven't been able to compare it to the gen 1 in regular mode with with its 10 watts class A output, I do prefer the gen 2 in class A mode over the class AB mode in the gen 2. However at this level, you can't readily identify - oh it's in class A mode or AB mode. There's no easy way to tell. Like you can't say this is less clear or something. Even if you flipped the switch yourself there isn't an instant "ah ha!" moment. Over a period of time, I find myself more immersed in class A mode and things feel a bit more "dimensional" or 3d. For me, over a long period of time the class A mode is an important distinction and it does bring something new to the table. It provides a more immersive or natural sounding experience. The difference however is easily masked if I don't have my speakers and room treatments placed carefully etc. I don't have a gen 2 amp. I am postulating that the higher biased output transistors use almost the entire characteristic curve which is more non linear near the top extreme. The judgement of flipping back and forth of the A or A/B switch only proves the result to you in your particular room with particular speakers. What you judge thusly is beyond our ability to question.
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 4, 2018 14:58:02 GMT -5
Let me add one other component to class A "success." With class A you are getting the entire waveform with no simplification/doubling as you do with A/B. As a result, you will get whatever "B" part of the waveform is being transmitted by your source. This is critical. If you have not maintained the entire waveform during ripping, storage, conversion, or DAC processes, then class A will reproduce whatever is there but the overall improvement will not be great. SO, I find it necessary to keep all rips as wave files, undisturbed, and use room correction as convolution files, also operating as wave file adjustments (REW and JRiver do this well together and at a high-res level). This is another reason why class A can be so powerful -- if the original wave file as captured in the recording process is duplicated in its entirety in your room, you will notice the improvement to class A and it will have the effects noted above. MP3, APE, and other file formats sufficiently alter the waveform so there is little reason to bother with class A. I don't follow this logic. The entire amplified waveform is delivered in either Class A or Class A/B. This makes no sense.
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 4, 2018 15:04:28 GMT -5
There is feedback in all modern ss amplifiers and feedback can insure linearity but wouldn't it be safe to say the more linear the initial amplification device, is the less feedback required to correct the non linearity, and therefore the more desirable outcome?
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 4, 2018 15:10:20 GMT -5
I don't follow this logic. The entire amplified waveform is delivered in either Class A or Class A/B. This makes no sense. No, you are incorrect. With A/B amplification the waveform is simplified and only the first half is preserved -- the second half of the waveform is the first half inverted so the sound is similar but not the same as with class A. This is why A/B is so much more efficient and powerful. The low level input circuit is exactly the same in either case. The only difference is that, in Class A, all output devices are biased so high that they never turn all the way off.
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Post by garbulky on Oct 4, 2018 15:23:52 GMT -5
Have you tried the gen 2 in class A mode? Though I haven't been able to compare it to the gen 1 in regular mode with with its 10 watts class A output, I do prefer the gen 2 in class A mode over the class AB mode in the gen 2. However at this level, you can't readily identify - oh it's in class A mode or AB mode. There's no easy way to tell. Like you can't say this is less clear or something. Even if you flipped the switch yourself there isn't an instant "ah ha!" moment. Over a period of time, I find myself more immersed in class A mode and things feel a bit more "dimensional" or 3d. For me, over a long period of time the class A mode is an important distinction and it does bring something new to the table. It provides a more immersive or natural sounding experience. The difference however is easily masked if I don't have my speakers and room treatments placed carefully etc. I don't have a gen 2 amp. I am postulating that the higher biased output transistors use almost the entire characteristic curve which is more non linear near the top extreme. The judgement of flipping back and forth of the A or A/B switch only proves the result to you in your particular room with particular speakers. What you judge thusly is beyond our ability to question. No absolutely. Since my hearing is subjective it only really applies to me. You may have a totally different experience. However since the gen 2 has a selectable switch to put it in to high bias class A/B giving 60 watts class A, you are postulating that since the transistors are biased more that it would be more non linear. So if this non linearity sounds "bad" one hsould be able to hear a negative effect when the switch is flipped. I've heard a generally more positive albeit subtle effect when switching to class A mode. Keep in mind in class AB mode the amp is still somewhat warm but not super hot. Since it is subjective it doesn't mean though that things are non linear. One would have to measure it for it to be so. But I haven't heard a negative effect of class A mode. However home theater review did measure an increase in SNR which they attributed to heat.
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Post by garbulky on Oct 4, 2018 15:27:14 GMT -5
I don't think there is actually a class AB in a sine wave. You are either in a or b right? The AB allows you to switch between the two depending on current demands.
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Post by garbulky on Oct 4, 2018 15:29:37 GMT -5
Have you tried the gen 2 in class A mode? Though I haven't been able to compare it to the gen 1 in regular mode with with its 10 watts class A output, I do prefer the gen 2 in class A mode over the class AB mode in the gen 2. However at this level, you can't readily identify - oh it's in class A mode or AB mode. There's no easy way to tell. Like you can't say this is less clear or something. Even if you flipped the switch yourself there isn't an instant "ah ha!" moment. Over a period of time, I find myself more immersed in class A mode and things feel a bit more "dimensional" or 3d. For me, over a long period of time the class A mode is an important distinction and it does bring something new to the table. It provides a more immersive or natural sounding experience. The difference however is easily masked if I don't have my speakers and room treatments placed carefully etc. Switch back and forth between A and A/B modes during a typical day to use the more economical A/B for TV and casual listening then, when the nightly concert starts, go to class A. Here's what I notice. How apparent the class A sound is will be dependent on the accuracy of your system. If you listen to a lot of acoustic instruments in a well-tuned room (I use REW and lots of wall treatments) class A strikes me as a large difference: instruments are more accurate timbrally and are "fuller" in sound; there is a richness and accuracy to strings in particular that is often described as "sweet," BUT, most importantly, the soundstage is much improved -- particularly as regards depth. With class A you will notice winds and brass in orchestral textures placed back in the soundstage and strings and soloists towards the front. This depth is marked and when you switch back to A/B you notice how two-dimensional the soundstage becomes. In my particular system you CAN distinguish between A and A/B and whenever I switch over I think "boy, that's better."
To tell you the truth I love class A mode. But for me, I can't instantly identify it. I just know that I enjoy it more and it sounds 3d. I love listening to acoustic instruments recorded in the same acoustic space. Like a quartet or a small ensemble. I also do stereo microphone recordings in the same room and position as where my speakers are. So that's my thing to see how good or realistic the instruments sound. The XPA-1 so far has proven to be the most realistic sounding amp I've come across with the most realistic spatial detail (to my ears). I think the only reason there is a selector switch to go to AB is because Emotiva realizes people don't want to use an amp that uses so much power and puts out heat all the time in class A so they gave them the option to basically decrease power and heat use. I appreciate them giving the option but I think the amp is meant to be run in class A mode for the best sound.
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Post by mick on Oct 4, 2018 16:00:45 GMT -5
Let me add one other component to class A "success." With class A you are getting the entire waveform with no simplification/doubling as you do with A/B. As a result, you will get whatever "B" part of the waveform is being transmitted by your source. This is critical. If you have not maintained the entire waveform during ripping, storage, conversion, or DAC processes, then class A will reproduce whatever is there but the overall improvement will not be great. SO, I find it necessary to keep all rips as wave files, undisturbed, and use room correction as convolution files, also operating as wave file adjustments (REW and JRiver do this well together and at a high-res level). This is another reason why class A can be so powerful -- if the original wave file as captured in the recording process is duplicated in its entirety in your room, you will notice the improvement to class A and it will have the effects noted above. MP3, APE, and other file formats sufficiently alter the waveform so there is little reason to bother with class A. Craig, i notice you have both XPA-1 and xpa 1L's, do notice a great difference between the two in sound wise?
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