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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 6, 2018 15:26:23 GMT -5
My experience using DLNA over Ethernet is that JRiver changes from redbook CD standard to some form of MP3 (without telling you) on frequent occasion and for no discernible reason. When I tried Roon with its free trial, I got 44.1 every time.
So from a sound quality standpoint, I'd give the reliability crown to Roon. I also very briefly tried Audirvana, and found no sound quality differences.
YMMV
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Nov 6, 2018 15:43:50 GMT -5
I haven't used a Squeezebox in many years - but I have owned several, of a few different models, in the past. (I think I had two Squeezebox Touch and one or two Squeezebox original clients; although I never tried the software client.)
The original Logitech SqueezeServer absolutely DID re-sample the audio under some circumstances (depending both on the sample rate supported by the individual client and on several user settings). Perhaps your Roon is delivering a bit-perfect data stream - while the SqueezeServer was not??? It's certainly possible, I don't know, and actually I don't care. I just know my music server-based system had never sounded as good as when I switched to Roon.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Nov 6, 2018 15:52:44 GMT -5
I'm still using a Squeeze Touch as the Roon Bridge (Endpoint) into my old Emotiva DMC-1 via Optical S/PDIF (AKA Toslink). I believe that the maximum the Squeeze Touch can handle is 96kHz/24bit so anything else gets resampled by the Roon Core (Server). For this resampled data I would expect the resampling CODEC algorithms in the Roon Core to have an effect on the sound. Everything else is just Digital Audio Data being funneled in Ethernet Packets to the Squeeze Touch. Past that, we're dealing with whatever issues the Optical S/PDIF may have in terms of needing/not caring about timing of Data Delivery, and finally, how good the DMC-1 is with regard to Timing Immunity and it's DAC functionality (Cirrus Logic CS5394 24-bit/192kHz).
Casey
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Post by Casey Leedom on Nov 6, 2018 15:54:58 GMT -5
By the way, it's relatively easy in the Roon Controller for iOS to see exactly what's happening. There's a User Interface Element you can touch which will give you an overview of the entire Signal Chain.
Casey
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Nov 6, 2018 15:59:30 GMT -5
By the way, it's relatively easy in the Roon Controller for iOS to see exactly what's happening. There's a User Interface Element you can touch which will give you an overview of the entire Signal Chain. Casey True, I was reading about this yesterday! So many tools. Still learning.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 6, 2018 16:30:00 GMT -5
There are two "components" of a digital audio "signal".... 1) data 2) clock The data is simply a list of numbers. Either you deliver the list of numbers EXACTLY as you receive them or you don't.
(There are an infinite number of ways you could change them; but "exactly the same" is pretty well defined. The proper term is "bit-perfect".) NOTE that many changes might be inaudible (a high quality sample rate conversion to a higher sample rate is often inaudible)... or even mildly beneficial... but the best way to be absolutely sure is to make NO changes.
In many situations, the data number is delivered in a specific cadence, controlled by a clock. One number off the list is delivered each time the clock ticks. Pitch shift would be an obvious long term variation in the clock; jitter is a general term for any sort of short term variations or "wavers" in the clock.
Obviously there are many different ways in which the clock can vary. AT SOME POINTS IN THE SIGNAL PATH THE CLOCK IS CRITICAL; AT OTHERS IT IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. For example, when converting digital to analog data, either an error in the data or an inconsistency in the clock will result in an incorrect analog output (distortion of some sort). However, if you're transferring a digital audio file, which is being stored on a disc, as long as the data is received with no errors, the clock doesn't matter at all. (If the clock is poor enough, it will cause data errors; if there are no data errors, then the clock was good enough, improving the quality of the clock cannot result in "less than zero data errors".)
Sometimes it can be a bit tricky to understand exactly what points in the signal path require or depend on a high quality clock and which do not. Doing so requires a relatively deep understanding of all the processes involved. For example, at the point where we are converting an analog input into a digital audio signal, the clock is critical. However, if you then send that digital audio data over a network, and store it on a hard drive, as long as the data arrives undamaged, the quality of the clock cannot and will not affect it at all. (As long as all the numbers you record to the hard disc end up being correct, that's all that counts; the clock itself is NOT stored; it is merely discarded after having served its purpose.) Now, when you read those numbers back, all that really counts is that they read back correctly, with no errors. However, AT THE POINT WHERE YOU CONVERT THEM BACK INTO ANALOG AUDIO the clock again becomes critical.
Roon doesn't change the audio unless you want it to. That is a can of worms for sure. I'm a fan of Amarra's sound. I guess we need to define "change."
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Post by petew on Nov 6, 2018 18:36:36 GMT -5
I'm more concerned that Tidal bites the dust. Hopefully Roon as an alternative waiting in the wings. My Roon trial was an epic fail because I could not get Tidal to stream reliably without dropouts.
I'll try it again when I get a few items off my plate. I think $500 lifetime is reasonable. As someone else mentioned, look what software costs, and how many electronic boxes have I recycled over the years that cost five large?
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Post by codyjenkins on Nov 6, 2018 19:31:41 GMT -5
I'm more concerned that Tidal bites the dust. Hopefully Roon as an alternative waiting in the wings. My Roon trial was an epic fail because I could not get Tidal to stream reliably without dropouts. I'll try it again when I get a few items off my plate. I think $500 lifetime is reasonable. As someone else mentioned, look what software costs, and how many electronic boxes have I recycled over the years that cost five large? Support for Qobuz is already in the works.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 6, 2018 21:18:54 GMT -5
I'm more concerned that Tidal bites the dust. Hopefully Roon as an alternative waiting in the wings. My Roon trial was an epic fail because I could not get Tidal to stream reliably without dropouts. I'll try it again when I get a few items off my plate. I think $500 lifetime is reasonable. As someone else mentioned, look what software costs, and how many electronic boxes have I recycled over the years that cost five large? Not sure when you tried Roon with Tidal but I just started in the last couple months and it works great for me. Mark
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Post by fbczar on Nov 6, 2018 21:40:10 GMT -5
My experience using DLNA over Ethernet is that JRiver changes from redbook CD standard to some form of MP3 (without telling you) on frequent occasion and for no discernible reason. When I tried Roon with its free trial, I got 44.1 every time. So from a sound quality standpoint, I'd give the reliability crown to Roon. I also very briefly tried Audirvana, and found no sound quality differences. YMMV Boom, Audirvana allows extreme manipulation by the listener that Roon does not. Many people use Audirvana in its default state, but if the learning curve, which is steep, can be dealt with Audirvana can be spectacular. Default vs default Roon and Audirvana are similar.
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Nov 6, 2018 21:56:10 GMT -5
While we’re discussing Roon and Tidal et al , I prefer a minimal if any t all disturbance of the music. Learning curve and all to change the music isn’t my cup of tea. Less we re-engineere our own music.
Just sayin.
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Post by mr on Nov 7, 2018 10:36:22 GMT -5
I'm more concerned that Tidal bites the dust. Hopefully Roon as an alternative waiting in the wings. My Roon trial was an epic fail because I could not get Tidal to stream reliably without dropouts. I'll try it again when I get a few items off my plate. I think $500 lifetime is reasonable. As someone else mentioned, look what software costs, and how many electronic boxes have I recycled over the years that cost five large? Support for Qobuz is already in the works. Yes, I think so, too, but as with all things, nobody knows for sure if or when.
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Post by codyjenkins on Nov 8, 2018 17:52:18 GMT -5
Support for Qobuz is already in the works. Yes, I think so, too, but as with all things, nobody knows for sure if or when. Qobuz says by the end of the year. Qobuz Gets Ready for its Close-Up
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Post by mr on Nov 8, 2018 18:02:07 GMT -5
OK, but will Roon integrate Qobuz like it does Tidal? If not, no sale for me!
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Post by leonski on Nov 12, 2018 13:09:45 GMT -5
I'm going to have to look into Roon, now, aren't I?
What happened to the hi-rez stuff from TIDAL? I thought that was the way to go?
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Nov 12, 2018 13:15:06 GMT -5
OK, but will Roon integrate Qobuz like it does Tidal? If not, no sale for me! Roon developers are already discussing licensing etc. with Qobuz, as reported in numerous threads on the Roon community forum.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Nov 12, 2018 13:15:46 GMT -5
I'm going to have to look into Roon, now, aren't I? What happened to the hi-rez stuff from TIDAL? I thought that was the way to go? Both Tidal and Spotify are in financial trouble and if they can't figure out how to make money may not last a lot longer.
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Post by Loop 7 on Nov 12, 2018 13:29:40 GMT -5
Both Tidal and Spotify are in financial trouble and if they can't figure out how to make money may not last a lot longer. I agree about TIDAL but I could see Spotify operating at a loss for a long time just because we've seen other companies do the same. They have such a huge brand identity but look at Yahoo which, at one point, was king so maybe not.
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Post by codyjenkins on Nov 12, 2018 22:54:28 GMT -5
I'm going to have to look into Roon, now, aren't I? What happened to the hi-rez stuff from TIDAL? I thought that was the way to go? It is still there and works great. I will continue to use Roon with Tidal and MQA as long as possible.
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Post by leonski on Nov 14, 2018 1:37:09 GMT -5
I'm going to have to look into Roon, now, aren't I? What happened to the hi-rez stuff from TIDAL? I thought that was the way to go? Both Tidal and Spotify are in financial trouble and if they can't figure out how to make money may not last a lot longer. Any chance of Spotify and Tidal MERGING? That's a possible out. Any need for Roon if I'm not worried about managing multiple zones or am simply happy with the iTunes as my music managing system?
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