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Post by 1960broookwood on May 12, 2019 7:09:22 GMT -5
Wire comes in different stand sizes and different weaves has anyone looked into any differences in the performance of these variables? Let's think about 'skin effect' - is it real?
In an industrial application that I'm familiar with involving UV cure materials the lights run at high frequency and the leads are wound around a non-conductive core. The wire gauge is fine enough to look like a cotton bedsheet to compensate for skin effect. For speaker wire?
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Post by wilburthegoose on May 12, 2019 9:07:39 GMT -5
I can almost promise you that your favorite band uses standard cables at a show and in the recording studio.
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Post by 405x5 on May 12, 2019 9:08:18 GMT -5
Wire comes in different stand sizes and different weaves has anyone looked into any differences in the performance of these variables? Let's think about 'skin effect' - is it real?
In an industrial application that I'm familiar with involving UV cure materials the lights run at high frequency and the leads are wound around a non-conductive core. The wire gauge is fine enough to look like a cotton bedsheet to compensate for skin effect. For speaker wire? “Application” is the key word.... Your example is another of the measurable however inaudible examples when used for loudspeaker connections.
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Post by SteveH on May 12, 2019 9:55:27 GMT -5
In an industrial application that I'm familiar with involving UV cure materials the lights run at high frequency and the leads are wound around a non-conductive core. The wire gauge is fine enough to look like a cotton bedsheet to compensate for skin effect. For speaker wire? “Application” is the key word.... Your example is another of the measurable however inaudible examples when used for loudspeaker connections. Without breaking out the physics books, "skin effect" is a non-issue for the human ear frequency range. Skin Effect is an issue that increases with frequency and is more related to RF power, transmission lines and transmission line length, it is not really related to speaker wires, unless you want it be. If you are worried about skin effect, run larger gauge stranded speaker wire.
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Post by 405x5 on May 12, 2019 10:07:48 GMT -5
“Application” is the key word.... Your example is another of the measurable however inaudible examples when used for loudspeaker connections. Without breaking out the physics books, "skin effect" is a non-issue for the human ear. Skin Effect is an issue that increases with frequency and is more related to RF power, transmission lines and transmission line length, it is not really related to speaker wires, unless you want it be. What he said
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Post by pedrocols on May 12, 2019 13:03:43 GMT -5
Think outside the box folks. Plain and simple. This thread feel like Déjà vu. 🤔
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Post by 405x5 on May 12, 2019 14:49:06 GMT -5
" This thread feel like Déjà vu. 🤔" Deja Vu all over again...…..pretty much all an expensive cable thread can ever be
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Post by rbk123 on May 12, 2019 20:43:49 GMT -5
I can almost promise you that your favorite band uses standard cables at a show and in the recording studio. Almost? Sounds kind of tepid.
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Post by amped on May 14, 2019 16:40:41 GMT -5
Ok all, I know we are all starving for information so I am finally going to feed the monster! Also let me state I am not a believer in protection acronyms like: IMO, IMHO, JMO, YMMV (I do use that one occasionally though)if I write it well I wrote it. So After very careful non scientific, quasi blind, critically thought out, listening tests I am finally ready to reveal my impressions of my experience with the aforementioned "Expensive Speaker Cables" know as the Straightwire Cresendo III's. Please refer to my signature for the "associated equipment" used in this highly non-scientific earth shattering, mind blowing, thought provoking synopsis.
So first I will say that this 6' cable was incredibly difficult to work with. It's less flexible than then my Ex-Wife (and not in the Biblical sense). The Amp side was very easy because Bryston has excellent multi way binding posts. On the speaker side the GoldenEar's(GE) were a different story they accepted the spades but trying to connect them without placing too much torque on the wire was a chore but alas I finally got everything connected. Over the course of 3 days I listend to some selections that I have huge hours logged listening to and know all the nuances of each recording. My initial impressions are as follows: The output from the speakers (SPL) were higher then with my other cables by almost 2 db's at the same volume setting on my pre. I attribute this to the shear mass of the cable vs the "control cable". So I lowered the volume so I was as close to the same output level in db's as not to be swayed by the louder is better theory. Then I settled in and listened...As I listened to each album, SACD and CD track I found myself hearing little spatial cue's and longer decaying of the notes that revealed itself to me as a deeper wider soundstage than I previously experienced with my previous cables. Track after track I was treated to a different experience than I have had with these recordings and yes in this case different is/was better. In one particular track from DMB "Before these crowded Streets" on the track "Rapunzel" there is a saxophone screech at appx 1:25 that literally made me jump in my seat because its placement sounds as if its 16' to the dead right of you like 8' if front of the speaker not to mention his "growl" was dead center and 2' off the floor. Next Rebecca Pidgeon was on the menu, this album is a Chesky and it is impeccably recorded. Again track after track I was truly amazed by the rendering I was hearing. The breath in her voice was amazing. I heard every little detail even one that I have heard before but this time I could identify that it was a pen or pencil being dropped during the recording. Throughout my entire listening experience I experienced more "slam" and "heft" then I had before.
Rather than get too long in the tooth here I am going to conlude this mini-review.
So here it comes...Get ready! Yes Virginia there is a Santa Clause! Yes there was a noticeable positive change when these cables were in my system, time after time, album after album, track after track I was pleasantly surprised at what I was hearing there was no doubt. Ok so now that I said that let me temper it by contemplating what could have caused this change I was hearing, was it the way the cable was manufactured? Was it the type of twist they use? Was it the type of metals they used? Was it the insulation, isolation? Here is what I think...I believe it was the shear mass(AWG)of the cable, the use of spades vs Bananas and lastly the short 6' length vs my previous smaller gauge, banana equipped 10' cable. So the $64,000 question would I spend $2,500 for the differences that I heard? The answer is a resounding and heart felt...HELL NO! Would I spend $400 for what I heard? HELL YES! So my conclusion is there is a difference in speaker cables but not for the reasons the manufactures want you to believe I now stand on terra firma in stating that a high quality, low gauge wire in a as short as possible run using a quality spade connector will get you all that you seak from a speaker cable so to those of you Nay Sayers exclaiming "snake oil" you are wrong and to my friends in the Super elite speaker wire club I say this...Dude you spent way too much on that cable!
And BTW if you have that Dave Matthews CD I mentioned try that track for yourself and tell me if you hear what I heard!
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Post by rbk123 on May 14, 2019 17:06:38 GMT -5
I believe it was the shear mass(AWG)of the cable, the use of spades vs Bananas and lastly the short 6' length vs my previous smaller gauge, banana equipped 10' cable. So the $64,000 question would I spend $2,500 for the differences that I heard? The answer is a resounding and heart felt...HELL NO! Would I spend $400 for what I heard? HELL YES! So my conclusion is there is a difference in speaker cables but not for the reasons the manufactures want you to believe I now stand on terra firma in stating that a high quality, low gauge wire in a as short as possible run using a quality spade connector will get you all that you seak from a speaker cable You could get some low gauge wire and spade lugs for peanuts and then compare, to see if you are correct. (Then you could make a nice profit reselling those snooty ones to Boomzilla)
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Post by dsonyay on May 14, 2019 18:17:04 GMT -5
I believe it was the shear mass(AWG)of the cable, the use of spades vs Bananas and lastly the short 6' length vs my previous smaller gauge, banana equipped 10' cable. So the $64,000 question would I spend $2,500 for the differences that I heard? The answer is a resounding and heart felt...HELL NO! Would I spend $400 for what I heard? HELL YES! So my conclusion is there is a difference in speaker cables but not for the reasons the manufactures want you to believe I now stand on terra firma in stating that a high quality, low gauge wire in a as short as possible run using a quality spade connector will get you all that you seak from a speaker cable You could get some low gauge wire and spade lugs for peanuts and then compare, to see if you are correct. (Then you could make a nice profit reselling those snooty ones to Boomzilla) Yes.. would be fun to buy some very thick gauge wires as a check. Hey, like you said at the beginning first post.. you've got everything out of your setup you can possibly do, so why not try wires? If they help the system, and you're happy, that's all that matters. Yeah, for the price you paid, it's a huge savings, and if you decide to resell them, I'd bet you get your money back- The original buyer suffered the loss.
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Post by DavidR on May 14, 2019 19:01:24 GMT -5
<abbr title="May 14, 2019 19:17:04 GMT -4" data-timestamp="1557875824000" class="o-timestamp time">May 14, 2019 19:17:04 GMT -4</abbr> dsonyay said:) Yes.. would be fun to buy some very thick gauge wires as a check. Hey, like you said at the beginning first post.. you've got everything out of your setup you can possibly do, so why not try wires? If they help the system, and you're happy, that's all that matters. Yeah, for the price you paid, it's a huge savings, and if you decide to resell them, I'd bet you get your money back- The original buyer suffered the loss. I have some #4AWG welding cable
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Post by amped on May 14, 2019 19:09:28 GMT -5
"Yeah, for the price you paid, it's a huge savings, and if you decide to resell them, I'd bet you get your money back- The original buyer suffered the loss."
That has always been my strong suit is finding that one of a kind deal...I would never spend that kind of scratch on cables!
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Post by dsonyay on May 14, 2019 19:35:55 GMT -5
<abbr title="May 14, 2019 19:17:04 GMT -4" data-timestamp="1557875824000" class="o-timestamp time">May 14, 2019 19:17:04 GMT -4</abbr> dsonyay said:) Yes.. would be fun to buy some very thick gauge wires as a check. Hey, like you said at the beginning first post.. you've got everything out of your setup you can possibly do, so why not try wires? If they help the system, and you're happy, that's all that matters. Yeah, for the price you paid, it's a huge savings, and if you decide to resell them, I'd bet you get your money back- The original buyer suffered the loss. I have some #4AWG welding cable
Dats what I'm talkin 'bout! LoL
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Post by martindktm on May 14, 2019 21:04:03 GMT -5
I'm happy that you heard a difference Amped. I would feel bad for myself if I would have burn down 450$ to have no difference.
But let's keep this monster rolling. Maybe a new colored dress will appear. What about people spending buckets of money on high end exotic material 3 or 4' power cord/cable and gold plated 110/120v wall socket... When their home is fed by 50-100' of cheap copper cable and miles and miles of aluminum unprotected outside cables...
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Post by rbk123 on May 14, 2019 21:40:40 GMT -5
I'm happy that you heard a difference Amped. I would feel bad for myself if I would have burn down 450$ to have no difference. No risk. If he didn't hear a difference he could resell them and be out nothing, or even make a little money. That's the key when you experiment - have a backup plan.
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Post by 405x5 on May 15, 2019 7:42:47 GMT -5
Accolades are not measurable so the benefits here lie exclusively with the O.P.
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cgolf
Emo VIPs
Posts: 4,613
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Post by cgolf on May 15, 2019 14:02:36 GMT -5
Accolades are not measurable so the benefits here lie exclusively with the O.P. Must agree with you. I personally don't understand how more, thicker copper or less length (unless huge lengths) can make a difference in what we hear but I'm not an engineer or scientist. When I think of hearing differences, more instruments or less or more whatever or less, I imagine some of the music or notes fall off the copper wire unless it's a certain length or size. BUT, if someone makes a change and they believe they hear a difference, then to me, that's all that matters. For them!!
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Post by Bonzo on May 15, 2019 14:56:04 GMT -5
Accolades are not measurable so the benefits here lie exclusively with the O.P. One caveat, he says he did measure an increase in volume level just by switching cables. That's what he said. Do we have a reason to not think that could be true? I dunno.
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Post by amped on May 16, 2019 9:49:27 GMT -5
Accolades are not measurable so the benefits here lie exclusively with the O.P. Must agree with you. I personally don't understand how more, thicker copper or less length (unless huge lengths) can make a difference in what we hear but I'm not an engineer or scientist. When I think of hearing differences, more instruments or less or more whatever or less, I imagine some of the music or notes fall off the copper wire unless it's a certain length or size. BUT, if someone makes a change and they believe they hear a difference, then to me, that's all that matters. For them!! I concur...But I will add that every time we buy a new piece of gear, upgrade or tweak something are we not searching to hear a difference? Some conclusions are just more subjective than objective but nonetheless I feel very strongly that when most peeps state they heard a change they do. I myself am a 100% non justifier of expense kind of guy. I went through a fairly expensive and exhaustive trial and error until I settled on my Preamps, I probably went through 7-8 in the matter of a year and I will tell you with certainty that each had it's own sound. But no more is that statement true when it comes to HT I think we can all agree that listening to Dolby Prologic is a far less desirable experience than is listening to todays ATMOS set-ups so therefore is it not true that there is a very real difference that is heard thus the reason for the change/upgrade. That being said the better we know our hardware, and media used, the easier it is to determine changes regardless of the subtlety of said change but it is quite real. Is there snake oil? Yup for sure...I truly believe in 2ch ultra expensive cables are more snake oil then anything else...In HT its the seemingly never ending changing formats of surround and HD/2k/4k/____. Ultimately they are ALL preying on our desire for sonic Nirvana and as long as someone will spend $25,000 on a Cryogenically treated RCA cable they will continue to make a $25,000 Cryogenically treated RCA Cable, or as long as someone will trash their entire processor because it's not HDMI 43.2 compatible and buy a new one they will keep makin' em'!
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