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Post by highfihoney2 on May 15, 2019 15:51:02 GMT -5
Curious how many folks are into tube amps or preamps. I have a McIntosh C-2200 tube preamp,a McIntosh C-2500 tube preamp ,2 Mcintosh Mc-2102 100 wpc tube amps,2 McIntosh Mc-3201 300 watt tube Monoblocks, all modern Mac tube gear is self biasing so no headaches & extreme tube life,I also have 3 Mcintosh Mc-60 60 watt tube monoblocks & a Mcintosh C-20 tube preamp ,a Dynaco/Panor Corp tube CD player ,a Carver tube CD player ,a pair of Golden Tube SE 80s,2 Marshall 9200 dual 100 watt monoblocks that are friggen beasts,I have at least a half dozen more tube pieces under the stairs I keep thinking I'll restore but never do.
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Post by boomzilla on May 15, 2019 16:04:19 GMT -5
I need to do a bit of reengineering on my little mono-blocks. My first attempt was just a proof of concept. They DO, however, sound awesome despite having only 12 wpc.
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Post by Gary Cook on May 15, 2019 16:27:34 GMT -5
As usual the tubes versus solid state discussion ends up with a quoting of the solid technical reasons why tube amps can never be as accurate as solid state amps. And as I previously posted (and Keith explained) the closer they get to being accurate the more they sound like solid state amps and generally the more they cost. Conversely the tube amp devotees like what they hear and dismiss the technical differences. With some claiming it’s just that those that prefer solid state amps almost certainly haven’t heard a good tube amp. And if they did they would change their mind. When in fact many have and didn’t.
In my case I’ve repaired, tuned, owned and auditioned more tube gear than most people have ever seen, some of it nose bleedingly expensive, and it just doesn’t sound right to me. Which is not to say that others may not find it appealing, I respect that as it’s their view, one which they are fully entitled to. But equally I respect those that have auditioned the best tube gear and rejected it and their opinions shouldn’t be dismissed with “you would change your mind if you heard a quality tube amp”. I have, many many times and I haven’t.
Cheers Gary
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Post by monkumonku on May 15, 2019 17:36:08 GMT -5
As usual the tubes versus solid state discussion ends up with a quoting of the solid technical reasons why tube amps can never be as accurate as solid state amps. And as I previously posted (and Keith explained) the closer they get to being accurate the more they sound like solid state amps and generally the more they cost. Conversely the tube amp devotees like what they hear and dismiss the technical differences. With some claiming it’s just that those that prefer solid state amps almost certainly haven’t heard a good tube amp. And if they did they would change their mind. When in fact many have and didn’t. In my case I’ve repaired, tuned, owned and auditioned more tube gear than most people have ever seen, some of it nose bleedingly expensive, and it just doesn’t sound right to me. Which is not to say that others may not find it appealing, I respect that as it’s their view, one which they are fully entitled to. But equally I respect those that have auditioned the best tube gear and rejected it and their opinions shouldn’t be dismissed with “you would change your mind if you heard a quality tube amp”. I have, many many times and I haven’t. Cheers Gary It's like when you're having dinner with people and someone offers you a taste of their food and you decline. They say, "mmm, this is soooo good... you don't know what you're missing!" Well you know, maybe if you tried it, it would be the best dish you've ever had. Or maybe not. But of what real consequence is it? Are you going to lament on your death bed that you didn't try that dish sooner (or that you never tried the dish someone said was soooo good but you passed on it)? Or, "try this pizza, it is great!" "Sorry, I don't like pizza." "Yeah, but you've never tried THIS pizza. If you did, you'd be a fan for life!" When it comes to tubes vs. SS, probably many who make audio their hobby have listened to both, out of curiosity. Then they made a choice. But maybe some had no desire to listen to one or the other. Live and let live.
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Post by bluemeanies on May 15, 2019 17:39:01 GMT -5
There's also something else that's worth mentioning here.... The differences between tube and solid state gear, and how they sound, are very different depending on the type of audio component you're talking about.
For example..... One major difference in the way tube and solid state power amps sound is due to damping factor. With certain extremely rare exceptions, all tube power amps have a very low damping factor (between 1 and 10), while all solid state amps have a very high damping factor (100+ and usually 500+). Likewise, with the exception of a few really unusual loudspeakers, damping factor has a major effect on both the amount of bass a speaker will produce, and how well controlled that bass sounds. (Damping factor may affect other drivers - but its biggest effect will be on the bass.)
This is one reason why they sound so very different with most speakers. However, no such difference exists between tube preamps and solid state preamps, because they don't interact directly with speakers. (A "hybrid amplifier" is generally equivalent to a tube preamp connected to a solid state power amp.) This is why the differences in sound between them is so much more subtle - and may be entirely inaudible.
Incidentally, the concept of a "tube DAC" is really a myth. The actual parts of a DAC that perform the conversion between digital and analog are far too complex to be built out of tubes.
(You would need hundreds of tubes to build even a simple DAC - and a tube USB or S/PDIF input circuit would require a lot more.) Therefore, any device claiming to be a tube DAC is really a solid state DAC with some tube components or stages added to it. (There are one or two critical stages than can individually be accomplished by tubes, although not very efficiently, but it's more common to see a tube buffer stage appended to an ordinary DAC.)
Likewise, in a CD player, the data is read from the surface of the disc using a LASER (I've never seen a CD player that used a tube LASER - they all use solid state LASER diodes).
The servo mechanisms that control the head position and focus are also universally very complex - and solid state. And I wouldn't even want to think about how complex it would be to perform Reed-Solomon error correction using discrete tubes. So, at most, a "tube CD player" may incorporate a few tubes into its DAC section, or add a tube buffer stage to the analog audio output section, but is really mostly solid state. (Lampizator designed a tube digital buffer stage - as a sort of proof of concept - but even he admitted that it was a novelty rather than a useful choice.)
Incidentally, if you're a tube fan, to the point of enjoying "gratuitous tubes", then you REALLY need to check out this guy: www.lampizatorpoland.com/ I dont understand why people cannot just stick the poll questions instead of ANAL-LYZING!
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Post by pop on May 15, 2019 18:15:16 GMT -5
Surely there is a degree of nostalgia and cool factor to tubes. My Schiit Valhalla’s are my favorite pieces of audio gear to look at. To me they look like I could have spent thousands of dollars on them and the tubes in a dim room with candles lit is very relaxing and brings a cool ambience. This isn’t lost on me. But I’m also 33 years young and so it’s a bit of vintage fun for me. Even if it’s not truly vintage. Kind of like the resurgence of vinyl. I just hooked up my new Rega Planar 1 and slapped some vinyl on. When I AB the vinyl to CD or tidal. I don’t hear too much of a difference in audio quality. But it sure is a lot cooler with the Vinyl spinning, and the whole motions you go through with it! For the little boost in audio quality vinyl is kind of a pain in the tushy. But it’s cool and fun. Bringing the whole thing together. Go to a nice steakhouse. Spend $70 on a prime steak. It can be delicious but if they slap it on a plate and have mashed potatoes hanging off of it it might not taste as good. It’s all about covering all of the senses for audio. My point is maybe tubes vs solid state has more to do with general ambience and your perception of pride in your system Perception & personal bias is an issue for sure but there's no denying tube amps & preamps do sound different than SS gear,better or worse is for the listener to decide but we can't just blow off tubes as perception & pride when measurable audible differences can be shown. The problem is most of simply cannot hear “measurable” difference. I’m not making an argument one way or the other. I’d just be really surprised to see someone in a blind audition say “it’s tubes, definitely”. I really doubt that’s the case. Now A/B between SS and Tube and maybe then yeah
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 15, 2019 20:01:36 GMT -5
I dont understand why people cannot just stick the poll questions instead of ANAL-LYZING! Me either. The poll was simple. Questions ranging from "Got one? Listen to it?" to effectively the opposite. I have one. I listen to it. Keith doesn't have one and doesn't want one. End of story...except for Keith. Mark
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on May 15, 2019 20:37:57 GMT -5
I dont understand why people cannot just stick the poll questions instead of ANAL-LYZING! Me either. The poll was simple. Questions ranging from "Got one? Listen to it?" to effectively the opposite. I have one. I listen to it. Keith doesn't have one and doesn't want one. End of story...except for Keith. Mark All true and I get it BUT it is KeithL ‘s sandbox! 🙄
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 15, 2019 20:51:15 GMT -5
Me either. The poll was simple. Questions ranging from "Got one? Listen to it?" to effectively the opposite. I have one. I listen to it. Keith doesn't have one and doesn't want one. End of story...except for Keith. Mark All true and I get it BUT it is KeithL ‘s sandbox! 🙄So, you're saying it's full of something...hmmm...what could that be? (I'll be back - gotta go scoop the litterbox...) Mark
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Post by chicagorspec on May 15, 2019 22:03:49 GMT -5
On the other hand, if you’re a tube fan and you just can’t stand those that don’t agree with you, maybe you should consider hanging out somewhere else. Keith et al don’t seem to be coming around to your way of thinking anytime soon, like it or not.
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Post by vcautokid on May 15, 2019 22:05:27 GMT -5
Simple logistics for me. No room or it would be fun to play.
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Post by Gary Cook on May 16, 2019 0:57:32 GMT -5
The problem is most of simply cannot hear “measurable” difference. I’m not making an argument one way or the other. I’d just be really surprised to see someone in a blind audition say “it’s tubes, definitely”. I really doubt that’s the case. Now A/B between SS and Tube and maybe then yeah But that isn't the question at hand, I have heard quite few tube amps that I couldn't for a certainty tell the difference. Simply because they were engineered, designed and built to sound like a solid state amp. They commonly cost many times as much which I wouldn't notice in an A/B test. But why buy a tube amp for multiples just so it sounds like a solid state amp? Kinda defeats the purpose of buying a tube amp in the first place. Conversely I've heard a number of solid state amps that sound like a tube amp. With bucket loads of 2nd order harmonics and slow bass they have an appealing sound (to some) but they just sound unreal (sic) to me. Go Dogs
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Post by Loop 7 on May 16, 2019 1:05:16 GMT -5
Conversely I've heard a number of solid state amps that sound like a tube amp. Agree completely. At the moment, I enjoy a tube amp but I have a Parasound amp that is darn liquid sounding.
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Post by bluemeanies on May 16, 2019 3:53:06 GMT -5
On the other hand, if you’re a tube fan and you just can’t stand those that don’t agree with you, maybe you should consider hanging out somewhere else. Keith et al don’t seem to be coming around to your way of thinking anytime soon, like it or not. I don't give a RATS ASS if people don't agree with me including KEITH. I am not looking for people to agree with me. This hobby has many,many options and people hear things differently for many different reasons. It was a poll..with specific questions! No need to add to the poll! If it's Keith's sandbox than Keith should start his own poll. The questions did not evolve around whether someone like tubes over SS or vice versa...can you not read?
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Post by audiobill on May 16, 2019 6:19:52 GMT -5
Keith doesn’t sell tubes.
Had the Carver deal worked out, I’m pretty sure the “guru” would have a different message for the faithful.
And what ever happened to Emo’s “All out assault on the high end” (mostly tube components from Audio Research, BAT, Mcintosh, Conrad Johnson, Cary and others)?
Still workin’ on it I guess.
The thing we must watch about Keith is that in his arguments, the only rational answer somehow ends up being what he purveys.
I happen to prefer tubes for the sound of natural acoustic instruments in real acoustic space, but understand that ‘70’s or ‘’80’s processed rock may have more “slam”, “zing” or such on transistor components to others.
Your money, your ears, your choice.
I also highly value long-term value retention, mostly found in US made high quality marques.
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Post by brubacca on May 16, 2019 7:00:13 GMT -5
I had this exact conversation with my 11 and 8 year old children on the way to school.
Everyones opinion is valid. They are all right for them. The example I gave them:
See that grass over there. I think its too green. You (son) think its green enough. You (daughter) think its not green enough. None of us is wrong. We all have our opinion that is right for us.
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Post by Gary Cook on May 16, 2019 7:35:27 GMT -5
On the other hand, if you’re a tube fan and you just can’t stand those that don’t agree with you, maybe you should consider hanging out somewhere else. Keith et al don’t seem to be coming around to your way of thinking anytime soon, like it or not. I don't give a RATS ASS if people don't agree with me including KEITH. I am not looking for people to agree with me. This hobby has many,many options and people hear things differently for many different reasons. It was a poll..with specific questions! No need to add to the poll! If it's Keith's sandbox than Keith should start his own poll. The questions did not evolve around whether someone like tubes over SS or vice versa...can you not read? As I see it the question (and the available answers) were slanted to give a particular result. Specifically to exclude people who had tried tube amps, didn't like them, moved to sold state and were happier with the result. That may have been deliberate or an accident, but it doesn't matter , as either way that is the result that was achieved. Cheers Gary
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Post by geeqner on May 16, 2019 9:49:27 GMT -5
On the other hand, if you’re a tube fan and you just can’t stand those that don’t agree with you, maybe you should consider hanging out somewhere else. Keith et al don’t seem to be coming around to your way of thinking anytime soon, like it or not. I don't give a RATS ASS if people don't agree with me including KEITH. I am not looking for people to agree with me. This hobby has many,many options and people hear things differently for many different reasons. It was a poll..with specific questions! No need to add to the poll! If it's Keith's sandbox than Keith should start his own poll. The questions did not evolve around whether someone like tubes over SS or vice versa...can you not read? Ya know Blue' - You're RIGHT!: I lost focus and appologize for the OFF-TOPIC "rambling" I for one will try to do better in the future
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Post by monkumonku on May 16, 2019 9:55:22 GMT -5
I had this exact conversation with my 11 and 8 year old children on the way to school. Everyones opinion is valid. They are all right for them. The example I gave them: See that grass over there. I think its too green. You (son) think its green enough. You (daughter) think its not green enough. None of us is wrong. We all have our opinion that is right for us. Yes, but which grass is the most accurate green?
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on May 16, 2019 9:58:32 GMT -5
I had this exact conversation with my 11 and 8 year old children on the way to school. Everyones opinion is valid. They are all right for them. The example I gave them: See that grass over there. I think its too green. You (son) think its green enough. You (daughter) think its not green enough. None of us is wrong. We all have our opinion that is right for us. Yes, but which grass is the most accurate green? Wait, was it Kentucky Bluegrass? 🤯
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