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Post by pedrocols on May 29, 2019 10:38:36 GMT -5
One thing to also be mindful of is that some solid state amps over emphasize bass reproduction. Except that in this case the speakers have active powered woofers. It's my contention that the Krell amp so easily powers the stat panel that I increased the Bass Control setting on the woofers to +4 and set the Mid-Bass switch to normal, Zero. With the tubes I felt the sound was lacking treble so I set the Bass Control to Zero and the Mid-Bass switch to -2dB. Frankly, just like how Dirac does things, I much prefer turning a setting down a opposed to increasing or boosting a signal after the fact. I don't get your point. Even if the woofers are powered they are still being powered by an amp.
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Post by ttocs on May 29, 2019 11:40:09 GMT -5
Except that in this case the speakers have active powered woofers. It's my contention that the Krell amp so easily powers the stat panel that I increased the Bass Control setting on the woofers to +4 and set the Mid-Bass switch to normal, Zero. With the tubes I felt the sound was lacking treble so I set the Bass Control to Zero and the Mid-Bass switch to -2dB. Frankly, just like how Dirac does things, I much prefer turning a setting down a opposed to increasing or boosting a signal after the fact. I don't get your point. Even if the woofers are powered they are still being powered by an amp. Yes, but the twin woofers are powered by the built-in twin D-class solid state amps. The external power amp, in this case the M-125 tube amp, is only driving the electrostatic panel above 300Hz.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,902
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Post by KeithL on May 29, 2019 12:17:47 GMT -5
Dynaco went out of business a long time ago... However, their tube amps were very popular, and there have been many other companies making "spinoffs" - or whatever you want to call them.
(Certain models are considered to be "classics".)
Then, a few years ago, the name was bought up, and the new company started offering just a few tube amp models. (Remember - the original Dynaco made tube equipment, then solid state equipment, and speakers as well.) The new company just offers a few tube models.... somewhat upgraded from the originals.
Sort of related.. but the amps Bob Latino sells seem to be based on dynaco amps? And is dynaco no longer in business? When I google Dynaco I come up with a Canadian company that only seems to sell the ST-70.. but no links on how to purchase one.
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Post by audiobill on May 29, 2019 13:05:06 GMT -5
The Canadian company is no longer making "Dynaco" amps; couldn't compete with VTA.
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,213
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Post by novisnick on May 29, 2019 15:47:59 GMT -5
No worries, your good! tube amps are very inefficient, they produce a lot of heat and great sound IMHO! Thanks Nick for the confidence building! They sound great, but different. I'll need to put some hours on the things first, but I'm very pleased. I use the word "polite" because it seems that nothing is IN YOUR FACE!, and most of what I listened to last night sounded good at different volume levels. I simply need to get used to it for a bit to be able to come up with more proper description of the experience. It's kinda like finding out Santa Claus doesn't exist, but the opposite, it's interesting and fun to find out what I didn't know existed. 😁 Keep an open mind and ear while enjoying music anew! Life is good ! Music soothes my soul, I pray it does the same for you!
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Post by ttocs on May 29, 2019 16:50:27 GMT -5
So novisnick, is there a special handshake, incantation, or some kind of initiation I need to know about to "enter" this secret society of yours ??
Seriously, thanks for your support. It'll take some time to get a handle on what I'm experiencing which I anticipate enjoying thoroughly. I'll want to figure out which differences are due to monoblocks and which are due to tubes, because, I have an inquiring mind.
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novisnick
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CEO Secret Monoblock Society
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Post by novisnick on May 29, 2019 17:52:22 GMT -5
So novisnick, is there a special handshake, incantation, or some kind of initiation I need to know about to "enter" this secret society of yours ?? Seriously, thanks for your support. It'll take some time to get a handle on what I'm experiencing which I anticipate enjoying thoroughly. I'll want to figure out which differences are due to monoblocks and which are due to tubes, because, I have an inquiring mind. I haven’t a clue of what you speak! We don’t discuss such issues in open forum! 😎
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Post by ttocs on May 29, 2019 22:36:49 GMT -5
Had them in Ultralinear Mode until a couple hours ago, then switched to Triode Mode. A lot more detailed, extends into upper treble better, more dynamic, power transformers run slightly cooler, did I mention more detailed?? I don't think I'll be able to find the SPL limit where clarity ends and frowning begins, so there's plenty of muscle.
My Krell has a more sparkling high end with sharper dynamics and crystal clear highs that go on forever, but if I have to trade something to get what these M-125's deliver, so be it. They aren't exactly what I would call "dark" sounding, but definitely not as bright as I'm used to, but absolutely sweeter for sure!
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Post by ttocs on Jun 3, 2019 10:40:39 GMT -5
I have extensive listening experience on a set of Montis on a MC275. Sound is beautiful. Hope that helps. pop, how do you startup your system? I've been turning on the source and muting or keeping the volume at low level, then turning on the amps and waiting about 30 seconds, then turn up the volume to activate the speakers. I've been told (by Bob) not to do this anymore because the amps need to see a load at all times. So I need a way to activate the speakers to get them "awake" from the sleep mode so the amps see a load prior to startup. At rest in sleep mode the speakers measure 15k Ohms at the binding posts, and they need voltage to wake them up. Also, there are times when I get interrupted and the speakers go into sleep mode, so frankly I'd like to disable the circuit This would then require manually plugging/unplugging for each session, or adding a power switch to the power cable. edit: Got the answer from Martin Logan. They said the 15k Ohm resistive load that's built-in is specifically for an amp seeing a load, which I didn't think would be what an amp would need, but they said it's enough. So I don't need to worry my little head about it.
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Post by Raven on Jun 4, 2019 21:33:26 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity Is anybody has any experiense with this one? It's an Audio Mirror Tubadour III "Tube" R2R DAC
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Post by ttocs on Jun 5, 2019 9:52:39 GMT -5
I finally got around to writing down the measurements to calculate some stuff. This is with the solid state rectifier and KT88 tubes. I discovered that .95 Volts makes the dissipation 70.6% and 24.7 watts per tube. Plate to Cathode voltage is 520.
I know Bob Latino says we can go to 1 Volt per pair which puts it over 74% and makes the plate current 50ma vs 47.5ma, so, no big whoop, right? This brings up a question, how much current are these power transformers good for? What is too much? I ask because I'm thinking of trying KT120 tubes and to get those to 70% the bias would need to be 1.6V and would be drawing 80ma. So instead of 200ma it'd be 320ma total. That's a huge jump, and the transformer gets hot enough the way it is, about 135 degrees after several hours at strong volume. Now granted I'm only listening at higher volume during the "getting to know you" phase, but still . . . . I also realize that BLatino has only stated 1V-1.2V per pair, depending on where you look in the instructions, so the resulting current would remain the same as KT88 tubes at the same bias. So, is the reason to go to KT120 for more headroom? or to hopefully realize more power? or a little of both? Will more headroom, biased at 1V with KT120 tubes, result in better dynamics, transients, extending the treble? The power seems to be enough for my system with KT88's so I ask mainly because I gotta know, you know I can't sleep, I can't stop my brain, you know it's 3 weeks, I'm goin' insane, you know I'd give you everything I've got for a little peace of mind. Sorry, got sidetracked on some old lyrics (Beatles, for you younger viewers).
The question which remains above all else in this diatribe is: Since we know 200-240ma is perfectly fine based on 1V-1.2V bias, how much more is ok?
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
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Post by novisnick on Jun 5, 2019 12:25:37 GMT -5
I finally got around to writing down the measurements to calculate some stuff. This is with the solid state rectifier and KT88 tubes. I discovered that .95 Volts makes the dissipation 70.6% and 24.7 watts per tube. Plate to Cathode voltage is 520. I know Bob Latino says we can go to 1 Volt per pair which puts it over 74% and makes the plate current 50ma vs 47.5ma, so, no big whoop, right? This brings up a question, how much current are these power transformers good for? What is too much? I ask because I'm thinking of trying KT120 tubes and to get those to 70% the bias would need to be 1.6V and would be drawing 80ma. So instead of 200ma it'd be 320ma total. That's a huge jump, and the transformer gets hot enough the way it is, about 135 degrees after several hours at strong volume. Now granted I'm only listening at higher volume during the "getting to know you" phase, but still . . . . I also realize that BLatino has only stated 1V-1.2V per pair, depending on where you look in the instructions, so the resulting current would remain the same as KT88 tubes at the same bias. So, is the reason to go to KT120 for more headroom? or to hopefully realize more power? or a little of both? Will more headroom, biased at 1V with KT120 tubes, result in better dynamics, transients, extending the treble? The power seems to be enough for my system with KT88's so I ask mainly because I gotta know, you know I can't sleep, I can't stop my brain, you know it's 3 weeks, I'm goin' insane, you know I'd give you everything I've got for a little peace of mind. Sorry, got sidetracked on some old lyrics (Beatles, for you younger viewers). The question which remains above all else in this diatribe is: Since we know 200-240ma is perfectly fine based on 1V-1.2V bias, how much more is ok? Hello member! I’ve been running KT 120’s in my BL VTA M125’s for some time now without I’ll effect. Actually, they sound great with plenty of power for my Paradigm Studio 100’s. Much improved bass as well. More of it and solid, not just a hint but with authority. Mid-bass is very good as well. There are some high dollar tubes and more reasonable ones to be purchased. I’m using Tung Sol tubes.
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Post by ttocs on Jun 5, 2019 14:51:36 GMT -5
Hello member! I’ve been running KT 120’s in my BL VTA M125’s for some time now without I’ll effect. Actually, they sound great with plenty of power for my Paradigm Studio 100’s. Much improved bass as well. More of it and solid, not just a hint but with authority. Mid-bass is very good as well. There are some high dollar tubes and more reasonable ones to be purchased. I’m using Tung Sol tubes. I sent a request to BL and while he didn't spec a maximum current draw on the transformer, he did recommend to stay with the 1V bias for KT120 tubes. I'm not sure how, but he said that it's about an 8% increase in power over KT88's using the same bias.
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Post by ttocs on Jun 10, 2019 11:12:24 GMT -5
Ok, so I'm a convert.
I did a comparo with a friend over the weekend and it was a stark difference going back to my Krell solid state. It sounds great, but . . . . And as PeeWee Herman famously said: "Everybody's got a big but". The M-125's are just so easy to listen to, and my friend even said that after only a half hour of auditioning. He, like me, notices a difference at the top end, the solid state is both more dynamic and has more extension into the upper treble, but it's just not as comfortable. And he even mentioned that the M-125's make things seem more "real".
My only issue has been with heating up the power transformer over several listening hours. So, as per the recommendation of B Latino, I have the amps running on a Variac at 117V. This has lowered the output voltages of the tranny by a lot! They were all over the maximum, mostly around +-20 volts over, and that was at a line voltage of 120.6V. Simply lowering the input voltage by 3.5V made a voltage swing of over 40V on the highest offenders. I also lowered the bias a bit to .850mA to reduce the current draw from said transformer. Now the tranny is happy so after 8 hours of continuous music the temp tops out in the low 130 degree range.
These amps have caused me some fairly substantial issues however, because I keep listening past midnight so I'm not getting the rest I need. In other words, they're killing me! But I mean that in the nicest possible way.
edit: clarification needed per monkumonku's expert proofreading.
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Post by monkumonku on Jun 10, 2019 13:00:17 GMT -5
Ok, so I'm a convert. I did a comparo with a friend over the weekend and it was a stark difference going back to my Krell solid state. It sounds great, but . . . . And as PeeWee Herman famously said: "Everybody's got a big but". The M-125's are just so easy to listen to, and my friend even said that after only a half hour of auditioning. He, like me, notices a difference at the top end, the solid state is both more dynamic and has more extension into the upper treble, but it's just not as comfortable. And he even mentioned that it seems more "real". My only issue has been with heating up the power transformer over several listening hours. So, as per the recommendation of B Latino, I have the amps running on a Variac at 117V. This has lowered the output voltages of the tranny by a lot! They were all over the maximum, mostly around +-20 volts over, and that was at a line voltage of 120.6V. Simply lowering the input voltage by 3.5V made a voltage swing of over 40V on the highest offenders. I also lowered the bias a bit to .850mA to reduce the current draw from said transformer. Now the tranny is happy so after 8 hours of continuous music the temp tops out in the low 130 degree range. These amps have caused me some fairly substantial issues however, because I keep listening past midnight so I'm not getting the rest I need. In other words, they're killing me! But I mean that in the nicest possible way. Just to clarify, was your friend saying the Krell or the M125 seemed more "real?"
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Post by ttocs on Jun 10, 2019 13:15:58 GMT -5
Ok, so I'm a convert. I did a comparo with a friend over the weekend and it was a stark difference going back to my Krell solid state. It sounds great, but . . . . And as PeeWee Herman famously said: "Everybody's got a big but". The M-125's are just so easy to listen to, and my friend even said that after only a half hour of auditioning. He, like me, notices a difference at the top end, the solid state is both more dynamic and has more extension into the upper treble, but it's just not as comfortable. And he even mentioned that it seems more "real". My only issue has been with heating up the power transformer over several listening hours. So, as per the recommendation of B Latino, I have the amps running on a Variac at 117V. This has lowered the output voltages of the tranny by a lot! They were all over the maximum, mostly around +-20 volts over, and that was at a line voltage of 120.6V. Simply lowering the input voltage by 3.5V made a voltage swing of over 40V on the highest offenders. I also lowered the bias a bit to .850mA to reduce the current draw from said transformer. Now the tranny is happy so after 8 hours of continuous music the temp tops out in the low 130 degree range. These amps have caused me some fairly substantial issues however, because I keep listening past midnight so I'm not getting the rest I need. In other words, they're killing me! But I mean that in the nicest possible way. Just to clarify, was your friend saying the Krell or the M125 seemed more "real?" He believes, like I do, that the M-125’s present music in a more real way. He said “it’s like I’m there” while gesturing towards the stage.
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Post by monkumonku on Jun 10, 2019 14:38:01 GMT -5
Just to clarify, was your friend saying the Krell or the M125 seemed more "real?" He believes, like I do, that the M-125’s present music in a more real way. He said “it’s like I’m there” while gesturing towards the stage. Thanks. I think so too, except not the M-125's since I've never heard them, but the ST-120 from the same guy.
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Post by audiobill on Jun 10, 2019 15:03:18 GMT -5
Ttocs, as Bob said, run the amps at 1.0 vdc per pair of KT120 tubes. And get the Weber WZ68 rectifiers if you push them, and consider the time delay relay to defer B+ being applied early.
Most of all, enjoy!!!
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Post by ttocs on Jun 10, 2019 19:04:52 GMT -5
Ttocs, as Bob said, run the amps at 1.0 vdc per pair of KT120 tubes. And get the Weber WZ68 rectifiers if you push them, and consider the time delay relay to defer B+ being applied early. Most of all, enjoy!!! Thanks audiobill! I initially was using the 5AR4 tube rectifier and switched over to the Weber WZ68 and found that I liked the Weber better. I've done a bit of pushing, but not over the top. When I asked Bob about getting the delay he didn't think I needed it, but I would rather be get it to ensure a longer tube life. And OOPS! I mistakenly wrote ".850mA", wrong on two counts. That's what I get when I try to squeeze in some tiny screen time in the sun while distracted-working. I really need to wait and get back in the car to use my laptop for proper responses (I build houses so I'm on construction sites all the time). If, and I mean IF, it were mA it should've read 850mA, no decimal point. But that's a holdover from when I bias guitar amps and do my thinking in mA. So, my post should've read 850mV for the bias on these amps. I had the bias set low because the transformers were getting so hot, and it helped to keep them under 140 degrees by setting the bias a little lower while in UltraLinear mode. Having gone back and forth with UltraLinear/Triode modes, I keep liking Triode mode, which allows the bias be at 1V without the transformers getting ultra hot. As for the "enjoy" part, that's so much easier now!
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Post by ttocs on Jun 13, 2019 18:05:41 GMT -5
audiobill, I've asked Bob about this and he said that since I've got the Weber WS1-T, I mentioned the wrong model in the post above, there's already a delay of inrush current. Does the TDR do anything different than the WS1-T ?
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