|
Post by garbulky on Jul 5, 2019 22:27:41 GMT -5
If we can get away from the poorly worded premise and focus on what I think Bill is saying - the KISS keep it simple stupid philosophy. I can totally understand what he's getting at. However, for me the KISS is more accurately shown in solid state two channel. I have never had to replace parts of my solid state two channel by hand or adjust things. In tube gear - that's a different matter entirely with tube replacements, bias, etc.
But it does remain that my DC-1 two channel dac and XPA-1 and UPA-2 amps have simply been rock solid since day one. There's no waiting on it to boot up or switch inputs. All inputs change instantly via both remote and my voice. They just work, every time, and sound amazing and take no effort to maintain past the initial plug in. I even have them set on voice controlled smart power switches which also work without fuss. They also can be left on 24/7 without a hiccup.
And this is reliability and ease of use is important for me. My system is in my family room and it HAS to be easy to use. It has to require no troubleshooting.
Can tube gear do that? Probably not everyone. A good amount of old tube gear lacks remotes for their input switching and volume controls. A BIG issue for me. I'm not sure how many are compatible with smart power switches. And for a lot of tube amps would be unwise to leave them on all day long while my XPA-1 and UPA-2 do it with no complaints.
So I argue for simplicity - two channel dacs are where it's at - except for one caveat. Nowadays the 4k devices have almost all dropped the OPTICAL OUTPUT! Relying only on HDMI output. This makes two channel dacs obsolete in home theater. Most people don't think about two channel dacs as home theater devices. But they can be very high end two channel reproducers in home theater and at a fraction of the price (and higher analog quality) than hugely more expensive surround sound processors.
So for somebody like me who wants fully balanced no compromise sound quality and monoblock amps but can't afford to spend $15 to 20k on a surround sound front end - a two channel dac pluss balanced monoblock amp front end can cost between $1000-2500. Much more realistic. So it is frustrating that a simple lack of an optical connector may spell trouble in terms of things to come.
|
|
|
Post by strindl on Jul 5, 2019 22:39:27 GMT -5
The fact is that Emotiva's pre/pros they all had and continue to have issues. If I am going to spend 5k on a piece of gear I don't want to hear stuff about software issues or whatever. Just make the damn thing work. Oh for sure..Emotiva has had issues with some, not all, of their preamp/processors. It's quite a bit more complicated to properly design and engineer one of those than it is to do the same for two channel gear. Especially the software aspect.
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 5, 2019 22:40:42 GMT -5
... Nowadays the 4k devices have almost all dropped the OPTICAL OUTPUT! Relying only on HDMI output. This makes two channel dacs obsolete in home theater. ... Can you be more specific about what "4K devices" you're referring to? For instance my Sony 4K TV does have a TOSLink output (I think most TV's do). Apple TV4K only has HDMI, so you're right there, but you could send it straight to the TV and then TOSLink back to your DAC, though I suppose you might consider the signal to be 'stepped on'. Most UHD disk players have TOSLink and/or Coax. Just looking for a concrete example of what you can't do?
|
|
|
Post by pedrocols on Jul 6, 2019 0:37:49 GMT -5
The fact is that Emotiva's pre/pros they all had and continue to have issues. If I am going to spend 5k on a piece of gear I don't want to hear stuff about software issues or whatever. Just make the damn thing work. Oh for sure..Emotiva has had issues with some, not all, of their preamp/processors. It's quite a bit more complicated to properly design and engineer one of those than it is to do the same for two channel gear. Especially the software aspect. Precisely! Nothing is perfect. That's what makes reliability a hot topic. I do not expect gear to work perfectly all the time but it has to be damn reliable.
|
|
|
Post by teaman on Jul 6, 2019 1:17:07 GMT -5
I don't think that Emotiva has offered a reliable and trustworthy pre/pro since their existence. I'm not even keen on their preamps and DACs. Emotiva should stick with making amps their number one concern, and with proper effort, they could build a solid and loyal customer base. The Emotiva XMC1 has been the top flight nerve center of my AV system since 2014. Many here would challenge your claims, I would think. I use Sunfire for amplification so can’t say one way or another about them. Bill You can challenge my theory all you like. I remember watching at least a years worth of daily updates from Tony with what was needed to work around the quirks, updates and problems. I'm happy that you are happy, whoever there was a long drawn out learning curve for smooth operation...then another learning curve for the Dirac packages. The UMC-200 and 700 also had their share of problems at launch. The UMC-1 had plenty of issues as well. The RMC-1 is just another step into the same problem puddle of the predecessors.
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Jul 6, 2019 1:57:55 GMT -5
... Nowadays the 4k devices have almost all dropped the OPTICAL OUTPUT! Relying only on HDMI output. This makes two channel dacs obsolete in home theater. ... Can you be more specific about what "4K devices" you're referring to? For instance my Sony 4K TV does have a TOSLink output (I think most TV's do). Apple TV4K only has HDMI, so you're right there, but you could send it straight to the TV and then TOSLink back to your DAC, though I suppose you might consider the signal to be 'stepped on'. Most UHD disk players have TOSLink and/or Coax. Just looking for a concrete example of what you can't do? Part of this may honestly be a snobbish thing on my part. The idea of trusting my tv to provide a lag free bit perfect toslink output makes me a little iffy. Perhaps I'm a little bit too fussy. So for the most part the digital outputs are from the actual sources. So for digital audio sources for 4k there would be two main items that I would be looking at. The first being the amazon 4k fire tv. I say this because I am heavily integrated in to the amazon eco system. My current 1st generation non 4k firetv works fantastic. It is voice controlled by my echo dot which is an essential feature for me. It has an optical output and ethernet connection. What's not to love. The new 4k fire tv cube does not have the optical output. Not to mention it uses an breakout box for ethernet connection. The second would be a 4k blu ray player. Most of the affordable units lack toslink connections but those same ones also lack the latest HDR features. I found a nice Sony UBP-X700 unit with coax digital output dolby vision hdr 10 for $$150 which is honestly reasonable but a little more than I want to spend. I was hoping for something less than $100 which may be unrealistic at this time. Not the end of the world. But since I don't have access to cheap 4k discs, it's on the backburner. (My local library has a humungous supply of free blu rays but not 4k discs yet same for the local redbox). www.amazon.com/Sony-UBP-X700-Ultra-Blu-ray-Player/dp/B078HXF9H2/So I guess my real b*tch fest is about the new fire tv not having optical because our current unit gets the most use.
|
|
|
Post by Jean Genie on Jul 6, 2019 8:02:22 GMT -5
I think the 'Pro Tube' crowd is 'BIASED '!😂😂😂
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jul 6, 2019 8:19:35 GMT -5
I think the 'Pro Tube' crowd is 'BIASED '!😂😂😂 CURRENTLY that’s the best joke going.
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jul 6, 2019 8:38:28 GMT -5
The Emotiva XMC1 has been the top flight nerve center of my AV system since 2014. Many here would challenge your claims, I would think. I use Sunfire for amplification so can’t say one way or another about them. Bill You can challenge my theory all you like. I remember watching at least a years worth of daily updates from Tony with what was needed to work around the quirks, updates and problems. I'm happy that you are happy, whoever there was a long drawn out learning curve for smooth operation...then another learning curve for the Dirac packages. The UMC-200 and 700 also had their share of problems at launch. The UMC-1 had plenty of issues as well. The RMC-1 is just another step into the same problem puddle of the predecessors. You’re right about the problems....probably you’re right about all of it. I’m just glad Emo. To their credit has not jumped ship on building AV processors. The number of high end AV’s out there to choose from that get it done is shrinking and I would hate to see Emotiva drop out of that marketplace. These guys take on an impossible task.....building a pre pro that will successfully integrate countless different pieces of equipment and work without a glitch?!
|
|
|
Post by SteveH on Jul 6, 2019 8:50:15 GMT -5
I think the 'Pro Tube' crowd is 'BIASED '!😂😂😂 You have to wonder how long it will be before they take themselves off the GRID!
|
|
|
Post by pedrocols on Jul 6, 2019 14:12:14 GMT -5
I think the 'Pro Tube' crowd is 'BIASED '!😂😂😂 You have to wonder how long it will be before they take themselves off the GRID! I certainly will when I am certain there will be ZERO issues wit the RMC-1. Until then, which is probably never, I keep it simple and BIASED only once a month!
|
|
|
Post by strindl on Jul 6, 2019 14:23:15 GMT -5
So I guess my real b*tch fest is about the new fire tv not having optical because our current unit gets the most use. Have you tried using one of the HDMI to toslink converters? I've never tried one myself but I see them being available.
|
|
|
Post by SteveH on Jul 6, 2019 15:58:25 GMT -5
So I guess my real b*tch fest is about the new fire tv not having optical because our current unit gets the most use. Have you tried using one of the HDMI to toslink converters? I've never tried one myself but I see them being available. I have used HDMI to Toslink and HDMI to Component converters and for the $25 they work very well. I used an AGPtek HDMI to HDMI+ Audio Converter to get the optical signal (it also has RCA audio out) and it worked fine. Here is one that looks identical to what I have, but a different manufacturer???
|
|
|
Post by strindl on Jul 6, 2019 16:59:02 GMT -5
Have you tried using one of the HDMI to toslink converters? I've never tried one myself but I see them being available. I have used HDMI to Toslink and HDMI to Component converters and for the $25 they work very well. I used an AGPtek HDMI to HDMI+ Audio Converter to get the optical signal (it also has RCA audio out) and it worked fine. Here is one that looks identical to what I have, but a different manufacturer??? View AttachmentOne of those looks like what is needed to get a toslink out of an HDMI.
|
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,345
|
Post by DYohn on Jul 6, 2019 17:05:41 GMT -5
Why use TOSLINK for anything? It has to be one of the worst sounding digital interfaces available.
|
|
|
Post by strindl on Jul 6, 2019 19:52:18 GMT -5
Why use TOSLINK for anything? It has to be one of the worst sounding digital interfaces available. Garbulky is looking for a digital audio output from one of the many 4K devices to use with his two channel dac. Two channel dacs don't have hdmi inputs. They use coaxial digital, toslink or usb-c.
|
|
|
Post by vcautokid on Jul 7, 2019 2:35:51 GMT -5
But, then, I doubt anyone ever put 100,000 miles on a horse and buggy... while modern autos frequently make it far longer than that. I'm pretty sure a horse couldn't go 1000 miles in one day either.
(But, then, a horse can have baby horses, and I've never heard of a car doing that.) Different requirements... and different results... I seem to recall, in the old days, power output tubes died relatively often, but preamp tubes lasted almost forever...
A horse and buggy were far less complicated than a modern vehicle..far less to go wrong. Apples to oranges. Yeah when you use primitive cathode biasing that is what you get. Tubes that go uggghhh. We have gotten smarter and there are better ways for the tubes to stay happy longer. Never liked software for too many things at the same time. Usually like juggling. You drop something. But tubes are loads....ahem of fun. Solid state makes it handier and easier. Microprocessors make 'em smarter. Just we need to keep them staying that way. If we stop doing so much overhead house keeping. HDCP. Yeah that is right. Crap like that. Thinkgs like your audio quality and processing might just work better. Also no one hacks a horse and buggy. But that doesn't mean I want one.
|
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,345
|
Post by DYohn on Jul 7, 2019 9:41:15 GMT -5
Why use TOSLINK for anything? It has to be one of the worst sounding digital interfaces available. Garbulky is looking for a digital audio output from one of the many 4K devices to use with his two channel dac. Two channel dacs don't have hdmi inputs. They use coaxial digital, toslink or usb-c. Yes, and given that choice mine would be coax S/PDIF, not optical.
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jul 7, 2019 10:02:54 GMT -5
Garbulky is looking for a digital audio output from one of the many 4K devices to use with his two channel dac. Two channel dacs don't have hdmi inputs. They use coaxial digital, toslink or usb-c. Yes, and given that choice mine would be coax S/PDIF, not optical. Yes....when that choice needed to be made, I opted for Digital Coaxial every time where possible. When optical first became available, I did find it “fascinating” but honestly, never could hear a difference vs. coaxial. Bill
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 7, 2019 11:50:28 GMT -5
Garbulky is looking for a digital audio output from one of the many 4K devices to use with his two channel dac. Two channel dacs don't have hdmi inputs. They use coaxial digital, toslink or usb-c. Yes, and given that choice mine would be coax S/PDIF, not optical. TOSLink is S/PDIF as well, both it and Coax are part of the spec.
|
|