Bear
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 2
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Post by Bear on Aug 4, 2019 22:29:26 GMT -5
First Posting, so hope this is the right forum & way to do it...
Relatively new to decent audio / surround. I don’t have the large
budgets like many on this forum seem to - and due to my lack
of knowledge in audio terminology / technology, any assistance
would be kindly appreciated for amp & wiring choices....................................................................................................................................................Current Setup:Indended Entertainment: Split 40% music / 60% surround
Room: 26’ long x 19’ wide x 8.5’ high basement space,
carpeted floor, finished ceiling, room corner(s) bass traps.
Using first half of long space for equipment, seating & viewing.
Equipment: Denon AVR-X6500H receiver as pre/pro
Pioneer Pro PLX-1000 turntable & ClearAudio Concept v2 MM cart
Panasonic DMP-UB900 4k Player
LG OLED65C9PUA C9 65" TV
Speakers: 7.2 Polk Audio LSiM 707 front towers, LSiM 706c center,
LSiM 703 side surrounds, LSiM 705 rear towers
Subs: 2x Hsu ULS-15 Mk2 (L&R at Front)
Headphones: Sennheiser HD660S (no headphone amp yet) | Parrot Zik 3 wireless
Streaming: Plex | Synology DS918+ NAS | AppleTV 4K | PS4 Pro
Looking at purchasing:Emotiva XPA-3 Gen3 275W RMS for front 3 speakers and Emotiva XPA-4 Gen3 250W RMS for sides & back towers The logic is... separating out power supply requirements for 7 channels and using the Denon AVR for future Atmos / DTS:X / IMAX f/x channels. ...................................................................................................................................................Questions I’m struggling with is electrical load & electronics interconnects: I’m able to have one wall rewired (where all electronics will receive power) going to a separate breaker panel. I’d prefer to run 4 separate circuits incl. ground of 10 AWG NM (Orange Romex) wire to separate 20amp breakers. 1) Would this be ok for each Emotiva amp to be on a separate 20amp circuit OR should / would it be safer actually on a lesser 15amp circuit ? 2) Do I need a line conditioner on the breaker panel or do Emotiva amps’ power supply smooth things out enough ? Electrician says incoming panel source is very 'clean' 3) How do I calculate expected max. circuit load / draw (Watts vs Amps) ? 4) Recommendations for Interconnects for my equipments price range ? I kinda like the Analysis Plus Oval One RCA Interconnects - but overkill ? A little knowledge seems to be dangerous, so excuse my ignorance. 
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 5, 2019 0:46:55 GMT -5
Welcome to the Lounge Bear! (I’m sure someone will be along shortly with the Blue Kool Aid) Looks like a nice setup, I’m running the same cards in a single chassis (XPA-7 G3), you’ll get more power that way so nothing wrong with that. It’s getting late so I’ll take a quick shot at your questions. I’m sure you’ll get some other opinions too. 1) Nothing wrong or unsafe having each amp on its own 20A circuit. I personally run my entire system on a single dedicated 20A circuit and have never needed more. Though actually my subwoofers are on a separate 15A because of location, but I’ve thought about trying to tie them together. I think there’s more risk of ground loops when you have more circuits, but planning and good wiring can eliminate that. 2) I don’t use a power conditioner, but have nothing against good ones, there was a good thread here about a month ago, they’re popular. 3) As I said, (1) 20A circuit is more than enough for most systems. You can try to find the peak draw of your gear and add it up, but it’s an elusive spec and disappears as fast as the transient that it try’s to capture. Music is dynamic and rarely taxes our power feed. 4) I make my own cables because I’m a little OCD about exact lengths and matching connectors, but there are a lot of good cables around. Bluejeans cables are well made and reasonably priced, but nothing wrong with spending more if it makes you happy. I’m in the well made with good connectors camp, and good looks don’t hurt. I use Monoprice HDMI’s because they work well, come in 1’ increments and are black (highly technical reasoning). Some like the cheapest that gets the job done, others get kind of fancy. Just don’t overdo it. It’s a good place to ask questions, don’t hold back, and enjoy your stay! Edit: Here’s the Power Conditioner Thread |
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Post by adaboy on Aug 5, 2019 1:47:56 GMT -5
First Posting, so hope this is the right forum & way to do it...
Relatively new to decent audio / surround. I don’t have the large
budgets like many on this forum seem to - and due to my lack
of knowledge in audio terminology / technology, any assistance
would be kindly appreciated for amp & wiring choices....................................................................................................................................................Current Setup:Indended Entertainment: Split 40% music / 60% surround
Room: 26’ long x 19’ wide x 8.5’ high basement space,
carpeted floor, finished ceiling, room corner(s) bass traps.
Using first half of long space for equipment, seating & viewing.
Equipment: Denon AVR-X6500H receiver as pre/pro
Pioneer Pro PLX-1000 turntable & ClearAudio Concept v2 MM cart
Panasonic DMP-UB900 4k Player
LG OLED65C9PUA C9 65" TV
Speakers: 7.2 Polk Audio LSiM 707 front towers, LSiM 706c center,
LSiM 703 side surrounds, LSiM 705 rear towers
Subs: 2x Hsu ULS-15 Mk2 (L&R at Front)
Headphones: Sennheiser HD660S (no headphone amp yet) | Parrot Zik 3 wireless
Streaming: Plex | Synology DS918+ NAS | AppleTV 4K | PS4 Pro
Looking at purchasing:Emotiva XPA-3 Gen3 275W RMS for front 3 speakers and Emotiva XPA-4 Gen3 250W RMS for sides & back towers The logic is... separating out power supply requirements for 7 channels and using the Denon AVR for future Atmos / DTS:X / IMAX f/x channels. ...................................................................................................................................................Questions I’m struggling with is electrical load & electronics interconnects: I’m able to have one wall rewired (where all electronics will receive power) going to a separate breaker panel. I’d prefer to run 4 separate circuits incl. ground of 10 AWG NM (Orange Romex) wire to separate 20amp breakers. 1) Would this be ok for each Emotiva amp to be on a separate 20amp circuit OR should / would it be safer actually on a lesser 15amp circuit ? 2) Do I need a line conditioner on the breaker panel or do Emotiva amps’ power supply smooth things out enough ? Electrician says incoming panel source is very 'clean' 3) How do I calculate expected max. circuit load / draw (Watts vs Amps) ? 4) Recommendations for Interconnects for my equipments price range ? I kinda like the Analysis Plus Oval One RCA Interconnects - but overkill ? A little knowledge seems to be dangerous, so excuse my ignorance. Welcome Bear. So far you've received sound advice. I was curious if you are running #10 for a 20a circuit or just for the ground? Also wondering if you are running a subpanel for these dedicated circuits? If no subpanel #10 is overkill and a waste of copper for a 20a circuit unless heat and distance is requiring it. If it's for a sub panel then #10 is usually correct for a 30a circuit, but if you're looking to do a sub panel it would be smarter to go with #6 wire and run a 50a circuit from the main panel and use the sub panel with the appropriate breakers. The ground would be #10 as it is acceptable up to 60a for ground. This way you will have more capacity to expand in the future. |
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Post by cwmcobra on Aug 5, 2019 6:26:46 GMT -5
Bear,
I can't add anything to the information already given. Just wanted to welcome you to the Lounge. You'll find lots of capable and amiable people here, and we encourage you to ask lots of questions and post lots of pictures!
Cheers!
Chuck
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Post by davidl81 on Aug 5, 2019 7:27:57 GMT -5
First Posting, so hope this is the right forum & way to do it...
Relatively new to decent audio / surround. I don’t have the large
budgets like many on this forum seem to - and due to my lack
of knowledge in audio terminology / technology, any assistance
would be kindly appreciated for amp & wiring choices....................................................................................................................................................Current Setup:Indended Entertainment: Split 40% music / 60% surround
Room: 26’ long x 19’ wide x 8.5’ high basement space,
carpeted floor, finished ceiling, room corner(s) bass traps.
Using first half of long space for equipment, seating & viewing.
Equipment: Denon AVR-X6500H receiver as pre/pro
Pioneer Pro PLX-1000 turntable & ClearAudio Concept v2 MM cart
Panasonic DMP-UB900 4k Player
LG OLED65C9PUA C9 65" TV
Speakers: 7.2 Polk Audio LSiM 707 front towers, LSiM 706c center,
LSiM 703 side surrounds, LSiM 705 rear towers
Subs: 2x Hsu ULS-15 Mk2 (L&R at Front)
Headphones: Sennheiser HD660S (no headphone amp yet) | Parrot Zik 3 wireless
Streaming: Plex | Synology DS918+ NAS | AppleTV 4K | PS4 Pro
Looking at purchasing:Emotiva XPA-3 Gen3 275W RMS for front 3 speakers and Emotiva XPA-4 Gen3 250W RMS for sides & back towers The logic is... separating out power supply requirements for 7 channels and using the Denon AVR for future Atmos / DTS:X / IMAX f/x channels. ...................................................................................................................................................Questions I’m struggling with is electrical load & electronics interconnects: I’m able to have one wall rewired (where all electronics will receive power) going to a separate breaker panel. I’d prefer to run 4 separate circuits incl. ground of 10 AWG NM (Orange Romex) wire to separate 20amp breakers. 1) Would this be ok for each Emotiva amp to be on a separate 20amp circuit OR should / would it be safer actually on a lesser 15amp circuit ? 2) Do I need a line conditioner on the breaker panel or do Emotiva amps’ power supply smooth things out enough ? Electrician says incoming panel source is very 'clean' 3) How do I calculate expected max. circuit load / draw (Watts vs Amps) ? 4) Recommendations for Interconnects for my equipments price range ? I kinda like the Analysis Plus Oval One RCA Interconnects - but overkill ? A little knowledge seems to be dangerous, so excuse my ignorance. Welcome Bear. So far you've received sound advice. I was curious if you are running #10 for a 20a circuit or just for the ground? Also wondering if you are running a subpanel for these dedicated circuits? If no subpanel #10 is overkill and a waste of copper for a 20a circuit unless heat and distance is requiring it. If it's for a sub panel then #10 is usually correct for a 30a circuit, but if you're looking to do a sub panel it would be smarter to go with #6 wire and run a 50a circuit from the main panel and use the sub panel with the appropriate breakers. The ground would be #10 as it is acceptable up to 60a for ground. This way you will have more capacity to expand in the future. I may be wrong but I think the OP is using a "common" ground for both circuits, thus the use of #10 for just the ground. I have dual 20A circuits for my set up, and it is crazy overkill but there is no downside to it. The idea of any "home run" line is perfect, ie one direct line from the wall outlet to the breaker box. It gets you the cleanest power you can get to your AV equipment. I don't think you have any need for a power conditioner, but if you want to get one go for it. Amp draw wise its a little hard to say. My DR-2 and XPA-5 run on one circuit through my panamax box. The panamax has an amp reader on it and the most spike in draw I have ever seen was 7A, and that was for a very brief moment. FWIW I don't know if anyone on here has ever tripped a breaker with their AV equipment unless there was a wiring issue. I think your case may be similar to mine though. I was already going to run a dedicated home run line to my room, so frankly it was almost the same cost to have two 20A lines versus one (just double the wire cost, but that is fairly cheap in the grand scheme) and I figured might as well do it. |
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Post by adaboy on Aug 5, 2019 8:44:20 GMT -5
Welcome Bear. So far you've received sound advice. I was curious if you are running #10 for a 20a circuit or just for the ground? Also wondering if you are running a subpanel for these dedicated circuits? If no subpanel #10 is overkill and a waste of copper for a 20a circuit unless heat and distance is requiring it. If it's for a sub panel then #10 is usually correct for a 30a circuit, but if you're looking to do a sub panel it would be smarter to go with #6 wire and run a 50a circuit from the main panel and use the sub panel with the appropriate breakers. The ground would be #10 as it is acceptable up to 60a for ground. This way you will have more capacity to expand in the future. I may be wrong but I think the OP is using a "common" ground for both circuits, thus the use of #10 for just the ground Gotcha, if he is using a common ground for two 20a circuits the wire would still be #12. It would be 12/3 romex. |
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Post by davidl81 on Aug 5, 2019 8:50:24 GMT -5
I may be wrong but I think the OP is using a "common" ground for both circuits, thus the use of #10 for just the ground Gotcha, if he is using a common ground for two 20a circuits the wire would still be #12. It would be 12/3 romex. After reading again OP looks like he is doing four circuits maybe? My man likes power! |
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Post by adaboy on Aug 5, 2019 8:54:25 GMT -5
Gotcha, if he is using a common ground for two 20a circuits the wire would still be #12. It would be 12/3 romex. After reading again OP looks like he is doing four circuits maybe? My man likes power! Lol yes yes he does! I was/am still confused on what he's trying to do but 1 things for sure, having the extra power definitely won't hurt! It was refreshing talking electrical with you, are you in the trade? |
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Post by davidl81 on Aug 5, 2019 9:06:23 GMT -5
After reading again OP looks like he is doing four circuits maybe? My man likes power! Lol yes yes he does! I was/am still confused on what he's trying to do but 1 things for sure, having the extra power definitely won't hurt! It was refreshing talking electrical with you, are you in the trade? No, just enough to get my self in trouble. I ran my homerun line to my theater room myself and I debated using a common ground for my two 20A lines, but in the end it was just as easy to run a separate ground for each circuit and I felt better about it. I've done a few other electrical projects around the house, I ran a 20A line for my mini split AC and installed a relay switch for my portable generator so I can power select circuits if the power goes out. My father in law is a master electrician and he double checked all of my work before I went live with any of it. And really just doing a ton a research online before you start a projects makes it pretty easy. Buying correct gauge an type of wire, conduit, etc ahead of time makes the job go pretty smoothly. |
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Post by adaboy on Aug 5, 2019 9:30:42 GMT -5
Lol yes yes he does! I was/am still confused on what he's trying to do but 1 things for sure, having the extra power definitely won't hurt! It was refreshing talking electrical with you, are you in the trade? No, just enough to get my self in trouble. I ran my homerun line to my theater room myself and I debated using a common ground for my two 20A lines, but in the end it was just as easy to run a separate ground for each circuit and I felt better about it. I've done a few other electrical projects around the house, I ran a 20A line for my mini split AC and installed a relay switch for my portable generator so I can power select circuits if the power goes out. My father in law is a master electrician and he double checked all of my work before I went live with any of it. And really just doing a ton a research online before you start a projects makes it pretty easy. Buying correct gauge an type of wire, conduit, etc ahead of time makes the job go pretty smoothly. Wow great job dude. I'm thinking about doing a mini split in my home office. Been dragging my feet as I've been so busy. |
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Post by davidl81 on Aug 5, 2019 9:55:12 GMT -5
No, just enough to get my self in trouble. I ran my homerun line to my theater room myself and I debated using a common ground for my two 20A lines, but in the end it was just as easy to run a separate ground for each circuit and I felt better about it. I've done a few other electrical projects around the house, I ran a 20A line for my mini split AC and installed a relay switch for my portable generator so I can power select circuits if the power goes out. My father in law is a master electrician and he double checked all of my work before I went live with any of it. And really just doing a ton a research online before you start a projects makes it pretty easy. Buying correct gauge an type of wire, conduit, etc ahead of time makes the job go pretty smoothly. Wow great job dude. I'm thinking about doing a mini split in my home office. Been dragging my feet as I've been so busy. I did the mini split for my theater room. It is upstairs and before I did the install in order to keep the room cool the AC ran so much it would over cool the rest of the upstairs. I tried to adjust air flow to put more in the theater and less in other rooms, but then it made it difficult to cool the other rooms when I needed them cool since so much air was going to that theater room even when it was not in use. The mini split I bought was a pioneer unit and I think it was about $800 or so delivered. Install was fairly easy as I did everything myself except the final stage. At the end you have to pull a vacuum to test the lines and I did not have those tools. I had an AC guy come out for that, He charged me $100 to test the lines and he added a tad bit more coolant to help with the longer copper run I had (room is upstairs). The system works great in the room. It is super quite and I can keep it cool in there no matter how many people are watching a movie etc. I also bet I have saved a lot on electricity since instead of running that large unit to essentially cool one room, I just use the mini split which uses much less power. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 5, 2019 10:24:20 GMT -5
More good electrical chops from adaboy and davidl81. One thing I wished I had done, and still could if I thought I needed it, would be to run (1) 240V circuit. Most power amps these days will run on 120 or 240V, certainly all the Emotivas (the latest even select automatically). The reasoning being that if you ever started to tax a circuit with a few big amps like the older XPR series that required a 20A circuit, switching to 240 would run them more efficiently with less current draw. So a single 20A 120V and a single 20A 240V would handle virtually anything you could throw at it. The reality is that it’s more than most any of us would use, and if you wanted power conditioning on your amps your choices would be limited (though I likely wouldn’t use them). Still if I was running wire, I’d probably run a 240 line, just cause. Since the OP will have a dedicated sub-panel (assume with 240), and running multiple lines, he could always switch one later to 240V if it was wanted. Just a thought that I’ve always considered, but never done. |
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bootman
Emo VIPs 
Typing useless posts on internet forums....
Posts: 9,358
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Post by bootman on Aug 5, 2019 11:52:13 GMT -5
Just to throw my two cents into the mix. Balanced power. Some light reading: www.equitech.com/articles/bpng.htmlUsed in many professional applications and possible in the home with the right equipment. |
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Bear
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 2
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Post by Bear on Aug 5, 2019 21:40:45 GMT -5
To: AudioHTIT, adaboy, cwmcobra, davidl81, bootmanWow, many thanks for the quick replies. I really wasn't expecting such warm and informed responses so quickly. Searching the forum a bit more and following suggested links, has helped me decide a few things: like, I’ll pass on the line conditioner for now, and choose more reasonably priced interconnects given the level / quality of my current equipment. You guys are amazing. Thanks. ............................................................................................................................... To help clarify things for the very helpful responders: I think I was confusing you with my phrasing of circuits with runs & grounds... adaboy --> All intended wiring is literally in a straight line along the main front wall at 34" height from the floor. The room has built in cabinets the full 19’ width of the wall. The top of the extended cabinets is were all electronics will reside spread out across it - like a long bench top. Each 'Home run' (as it were) is 26' max to the 200A breaker panel in the room next over. No subpanels involved. I had intended each of the 4 lines as a separate circuit, each with it's own ground using 10/3 Romex to NEMA T-Receptacle outlet of two plugs. So, 4 separate electrical boxes. To me, using 10/3 or 12/3 is not the issue - having a separate ground for each circuit is.. Overall, It’s way overkill, but it gives me peace of mind, PLUS I won’t ever have to worry about future expansion. davidl81 --> This was just a personal preference of overkill to have 4 separate circuits. Nothing more. The electrician is already coming for 2, so why not. The breaker panel is huge and very cleanly laid out, with plenty of expansion room. It’s only a bit extra cost-wise for the 10/3 wire, breakers and his time. Minor costs for future monoblock potential. So, similar to yourself, cheap in the grand scheme and why not. I'll probably go with you guys recommendations and my electricians of using the 12/3 wiring. My original logic was this: Left: Sub & XPA-3 G3 on one 20A circuit. Left-Middle: AVR, NAS / future gear Right-Middle: TV, Player, small gadges, furture gear / monoblocks Right: Sub & XPA-4 G3 on another 20A Circuit. AudioHTIT --> Good idea about the potential for future 240v bootman --> Thanks for the, ah, 'light reading' link on balanced power.... Thanks again everyone. This is a great start. 
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,223 
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Post by novisnick on Aug 5, 2019 22:07:20 GMT -5
Welcome to the friendliest forum on the interweb!
Let me pour you your first cup of Emo Blue. 😁
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2019 15:36:11 GMT -5
I've been using balanced toroidal transformers for 20+ years, they're great.
Mine were custom built with an ever so slight step-up outputs 124 vac, cost about $210 each.
One 120v, 20 amp 12 ga romex with Voltage & Current meter, feeds- Modem, Router & switch, all digital source equipment, Anthem pre/pro
One 120v 20 amp 12 ga romex with Voltage & Current meter, feeds- power amp, sub, Integra receiver & TV monitor.
Both feeds have hospital grade AC receptacles (orange)
One 120v 15 amp for accessories- fans, lights.& tools.
Brick Wall surge protection
Two CyberPower UPS
I have no neutral to ground ripple (noise) on the two A/V feeds, which is EXACTLY what we want.
DIY power switching units. I can turn lights on/off, fans on/off inside my 6'x8' A/V closet from my viewing seat via remote control.
After dealing with poor electricity service to the house- brownouts & storm lightning, said I would never loose expensive A/V equipment again due to power problems.
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Post by SteveH on Aug 6, 2019 15:46:31 GMT -5
If you are going to run dedicated circuits, I would recommend running 120V and 240V, the labor is going to be same, but the wire cost will increase. Since you are only 26' in length, running a '12/3 with a ground' for each branch circuit should suffice. Buy yourself some Leviton 5842 125V/250V outlets and wire them per NEC2017 exhibit 210.2 as shown below. I added a subpanel and ran six dedicated 20 amp circuits for my equipment using the Leviton 5842 outlets. You will have to use 2-pole breakers to stay per code. Using 12/3 at the full 20 amps, you will have a 2% voltage drop with 120V and 1% voltage drop with 240V, the target is to remain under 3%. You can go up to 45' for 20 amps at 120V with 12/3. Your worse case 20 amp voltage drop with 10/3 would be 1.1%. I do like my dedicated circuits, the family room lights and bathroom lights don't dim with the bass anymore! Enjoy your system!   |
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