klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,742
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Post by klinemj on Sept 21, 2019 11:14:05 GMT -5
Another user was trying to create this thread and could not, so I did it for him. The topic is the expansion of speaker channels. TDifEQ - is this what you wanted? Have at it! Mark
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Post by lrobertson on Sept 21, 2019 12:08:00 GMT -5
To sum up how I see the black hole. We have a 28 channel pre pro. It’s been confirmed support for 11.1.8 and there has been news another company is releasing support for 13.1.10 within the next year albeit a much more expensive company. It hasn’t been announced by Emotiva however if the RMC-1 has the ability to decode up to 24 and 28 channel formats and wether it will pick up DTS:X Pro. It’s easy for me to say that the RMC-1 should support as many channels as it can decode. So 13.1.10 if 24, 15.1.10 if 26, and 17.1.10 if 28. If however it peaks at 11.1.8 another idea would be to have that 11.1.8 layer function for the object audio and on top of that you can introduce array expansions for the side surround and/or back surround which focus on the diffuse bed channel material if you want to bring back into the mix what we lost from eliminating dipole speakers. It would be even better if these arrays also were separate from object playback so the imaging of objects stays consistent between the main supported 11.1.8 base layer of speakers. It would also allow the speakers close and behind any rear row seats utilize dipoles if they didn’t have the task of panning objects among the others. With this you could have a room with 19.1.8 and who knows if there would be much of a difference from if it was a native layout.
Codec and upmixing support is another black hole. All I can say is I hope in the future they allow all the three players (Atmos, DTS, and Auro) to accept each others object codec and allow us to choose which one we would prefer manipulate our bed channels so that we don’t have to knock the signal back to a lower format in order to upmix. They seem to all have their unique ways of expanding these bed channels for the listener and the more options the better. As for now I do think DTS:X Pro is a must.
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 21, 2019 13:55:00 GMT -5
To sum up how I see the black hole. We have a 28 channel pre pro. It’s been confirmed support for 11.1.8 and there has been news another company is releasing support for 13.1.10 within the next year albeit a much more expensive company. It hasn’t been announced by Emotiva however if the RMC-1 has the ability to decode up to 24 and 28 channel formats and wether it will pick up DTS:X Pro. It’s easy for me to say that the RMC-1 should support as many channels as it can decode. So 13.1.10 if 24, 15.1.10 if 26, and 17.1.10 if 28. If however it peaks at 11.1.8 another idea would be to have that 11.1.8 layer function for the object audio and on top of that you can introduce array expansions for the side surround and/or back surround which focus on the diffuse bed channel material if you want to bring back into the mix what we lost from eliminating dipole speakers. It would be even better if these arrays also were separate from object playback so the imaging of objects stays consistent between the main supported 11.1.8 base layer of speakers. With this you could have a room with 19.1.8 and who knows if there would be much of a difference from if it was a native layout. Codec and upmixing support is another black hole. All I can say is I hope in the future they allow all the three players (Atmos, DTS, and Auro) to accept each others object codec and allow us to choose which one we would prefer manipulate our bed channels so that we don’t have to knock the signal back to a lower format in order to upmix. They seem to all have their unique ways of expanding these bed channels for the listener and the more options the better. As for now I do think DTS:X Pro is a must. Good summary. RMC-1 Home Theater/Cinema Owner High Level View: 1. RMC-1 Home Theater/Cinema owners need multiple choices for 3D audio formats and upmixers. Although this requires Dolby and DTS and perhaps other (e.g. Auro) 3D immersive audio formats to be on each 4K movie, RMC-1 Owners believe this will happen in some combination because active competition amongst new 3D audio formats and upmixers is the only way to insure continual improvements in sound quality over time. Any 3D sound format/upmixer monopoly would eventually lead to poor sound quality and the demise of the industry. RMC-1 Owners do not want just a "Dolby Box". 2. RMC-1 Home Theater Owners want all connected speakers actively engaged ... either through a 3D audio format and/or 3D upmixer.
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Post by davidl81 on Sept 21, 2019 14:03:43 GMT -5
To sum up how I see the black hole. We have a 28 channel pre pro. It’s been confirmed support for 11.1.8 and there has been news another company is releasing support for 13.1.10 within the next year albeit a much more expensive company. It hasn’t been announced by Emotiva however if the RMC-1 has the ability to decode up to 24 and 28 channel formats and wether it will pick up DTS:X Pro. It’s easy for me to say that the RMC-1 should support as many channels as it can decode. So 13.1.10 if 24, 15.1.10 if 26, and 17.1.10 if 28. If however it peaks at 11.1.8 another idea would be to have that 11.1.8 layer function for the object audio and on top of that you can introduce array expansions for the side surround and/or back surround which focus on the diffuse bed channel material if you want to bring back into the mix what we lost from eliminating dipole speakers. It would be even better if these arrays also were separate from object playback so the imaging of objects stays consistent between the main supported 11.1.8 base layer of speakers. With this you could have a room with 19.1.8 and who knows if there would be much of a difference from if it was a native layout. Codec and upmixing support is another black hole. All I can say is I hope in the future they allow all the three players (Atmos, DTS, and Auro) to accept each others object codec and allow us to choose which one we would prefer manipulate our bed channels so that we don’t have to knock the signal back to a lower format in order to upmix. They seem to all have their unique ways of expanding these bed channels for the listener and the more options the better. As for now I do think DTS:X Pro is a must. Good summary. RMC-1 Home Theater/Cinema Owner High Level View: 1. RMC-1 Home Theater/Cinema owners need multiple choices for 3D audio formats and upmixers. Although this requires both Dolby and DTS 3D immersive and other (Auro) formats be on each 4K movie, RMC-1 Owners believe this will happen in some combination because active competition amongst new 3D audio formats and upmixers is the only way to insure continual improvements in sound quality over time; any 3D sound format/upmixer monopoly would eventually lead to poor sound quality and the demise of the industry. RMC-1 Owners do not want just a "Dolby Box". 2. RMC-1 Home Theater Owners want all connected speakers actively engaged ... either through a 3D audio format or 3D upmixer. I don’t think you will ever see a movie with both DTS:x and Dolby Atmos sound tracks. Just way too much work for a studio with no real benefit. I think what is desired is an up mixer that can take say Disney pinned 7.1.4 and up mix it to whatever crazy combination of speakers you may have. After all what is the point of a 16-28 channel processor if you can’t make those channels active.
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 21, 2019 14:13:52 GMT -5
Good summary. RMC-1 Home Theater/Cinema Owner High Level View: 1. RMC-1 Home Theater/Cinema owners need multiple choices for 3D audio formats and upmixers. Although this requires both Dolby and DTS 3D immersive and other (Auro) formats be on each 4K movie, RMC-1 Owners believe this will happen in some combination because active competition amongst new 3D audio formats and upmixers is the only way to insure continual improvements in sound quality over time; any 3D sound format/upmixer monopoly would eventually lead to poor sound quality and the demise of the industry. RMC-1 Owners do not want just a "Dolby Box". 2. RMC-1 Home Theater Owners want all connected speakers actively engaged ... either through a 3D audio format or 3D upmixer. I don’t think you will ever see a movie with both DTS:x and Dolby Atmos sound tracks. Just way too much work for a studio with no real benefit. I think what is desired is an up mixer that can take say Disney pinned 7.1.4 and up mix it to whatever crazy combination of speakers you may have. After all what is the point of a 16-28 channel processor if you can’t make those channels active. I hear you. If that is true, then sound quality will eventually diminish due to a lack of competition ... no more hobby. Reason why there is ATMOS is because of competition between Dolby and DTS in all the 2K movies.
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Post by davidl81 on Sept 21, 2019 14:19:11 GMT -5
I don’t think you will ever see a movie with both DTS:x and Dolby Atmos sound tracks. Just way too much work for a studio with no real benefit. I think what is desired is an up mixer that can take say Disney pinned 7.1.4 and up mix it to whatever crazy combination of speakers you may have. After all what is the point of a 16-28 channel processor if you can’t make those channels active. I hear you. If that is true, then sound quality will eventually diminish due to a lack of competition ... no more hobby. Reason why there is ATMOS is because of competition between Dolby and DTS. I just thinks it’s like Dolby True HD and DTS Master HD was. Studios will do one of the other, but you would never see both. And they always had a simple DD5.1 sound track.
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Post by lrobertson on Sept 21, 2019 14:37:58 GMT -5
If neural x can be applied to dolby hd without switching first to pcm then I would imagine the lift on the upmix ban would result in DTS Pro being able to apply itself to Atmos without first going to pcm. So one mix with multiple playback options. My thinking may be off here.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 21, 2019 14:50:25 GMT -5
Why doesn’t this discussion fit in the feature request thread? In the end aren’t we trying to steer the direction of development?
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Post by lrobertson on Sept 21, 2019 15:00:13 GMT -5
Why doesn’t this discussion fit in the feature request thread? In the end aren’t we trying to steer the direction of development? Everyone keeps trying to segregate us 16+ channel weirdos further.
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 21, 2019 15:34:12 GMT -5
Why doesn’t this discussion fit in the feature request thread? In the end aren’t we trying to steer the direction of development? Speaker expansion includes the never ending 3D audio format and upmixer discussions. No other topics can be introduced and survive ... because it's never ending and toxic to anything else. Lots of experts and people trying to figure this out with no end insight; however, we will post any recommendations to the feature request thread when appropriate. lol.
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Post by TDifEQ on Sept 21, 2019 15:52:54 GMT -5
I hear you. If that is true, then sound quality will eventually diminish due to a lack of competition ... no more hobby. Reason why there is ATMOS is because of competition between Dolby and DTS. I just thinks it’s like Dolby True HD and DTS Master HD was. Studios will do one of the other, but you would never see both. And they always had a simple DD5.1 sound track. If I did not like the DD TrueHD/ATMOS track in 4k movie, today I would have to go to the 2k movie and apply DTS neural:X to the DTS HDMA 5.1 track ... if DTS is even there in the 2k movie? 4k Ready Player One has both DD TrueHD/ATMOS and DTS HDMA 5.1 to choose from ... but that is rare (but smart) to see both DD ATMOS and DTS HDMA in the same movie. The DTS HDMA 5.1/neural:X version is 5 to 7db lower than its ATMOS equivalent. Not sure why.
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Post by ttocs on Sept 21, 2019 16:12:46 GMT -5
It hasn’t been announced by Emotiva however if the RMC-1 has the ability to decode up to 24 and 28 channel formats and wether it will pick up DTS:X Pro. It’s easy for me to say that the RMC-1 should support as many channels as it can decode. I remember reading "somewhere" in the other thread that the expansion modules would each have the brains for controlling the intended function. So the base RMC-1 is really only obligated to spit out 16 channels, and the expansion modules would provide for the rest. Do I have this correct?
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Post by lrobertson on Sept 21, 2019 16:24:18 GMT -5
It hasn’t been announced by Emotiva however if the RMC-1 has the ability to decode up to 24 and 28 channel formats and wether it will pick up DTS:X Pro. It’s easy for me to say that the RMC-1 should support as many channels as it can decode. I remember reading "somewhere" in the other thread that the expansion modules would each have the brains for controlling the intended function. So the base RMC-1 is really only obligated to spit out 16 channels, and the expansion modules would provide for the rest. Do I have this correct? I’m not sure. The issue with that is as you expand to more channels you introduce speakers in between the original 16 and even switch to others. So the system in a 11.1.8 would not only have to realize the speakers you have with the bottom 2 that you’re adding for panning but also you’d be eliminating the center height entirely and adding the front and rear wall heights. As a whole the system would need to know the layout all together to be able to pan objects. I imagine a special firmware could make what you’re saying possible though. I would think layouts wouldn’t get exponentially more complex computationally on Emotiva’s end but I might be wrong and there is still the need for Dirac’s processing. The only reason I’m even really skeptical now is that a 13.1.10 has been announced so you’d think they’d give us the Emotiva green light with us knowing it could be in the distant future but they haven’t. So I wonder if it’s a limitation or maybe the licensing cost is something they aren’t prepared to swallow.. I think too they’re tired of telling us what will be and then having to hear our grumbling when it’s not on our time frame.
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Post by ttocs on Sept 21, 2019 16:56:07 GMT -5
I remember reading "somewhere" in the other thread that the expansion modules would each have the brains for controlling the intended function. So the base RMC-1 is really only obligated to spit out 16 channels, and the expansion modules would provide for the rest. Do I have this correct? I’m not sure. The issue with that is as you expand to more channels you introduce speakers in between the original 16 and even switch to others. So the system in a 11.1.8 would not only have to realize the speakers you have with the bottom 2 that you’re adding for panning but also you’d be eliminating the center height entirely and adding the front and rear wall heights. As a whole the system would need to know the layout all together to be able to pan objects. I imagine a special firmware could make what you’re saying possible though. The only reason I’m even really skeptical now is that a 13.1.10 has been announced so you’d think they’d give us the Emotiva green light with us knowing it could be in the distant future but they haven’t. So I wonder if it’s a limitation or maybe the licensing cost is something they aren’t prepared to swallow.. I think too they’re tired of telling us what will be and then having to hear our grumbling when it’s not on our time table. This is what I saw in the Official RMC-1 OWNERS Thread regarding each module having its own processor: The outputs on the RMC-1 are all identical - in terms of hardware. However, in order to do so, the software would have to be entirely re-written, which isn't likely to happen. (As with most modern devices, the programming that runs the RMC-1 is quite complex already, and this would make it far more complex.)
Both Dan and Lonnie said RMC-1 expansion modules would have fully assignable outputs at 2018 CEDIA. I believe nospam (?) provided this link to Sound and Vision article on RMC-1 at 2018 CEDIA where Dan and Lonnie said RMC-1 had assignable outputs ... see point 4 in notes below: www.soundandvision.com/content/emotiva-gets-ready-1158-dolby-atmosBelow are notes on this article: NOTES: 1. ATMOS: Supports 11.5.8 channels of Dolby Atmos surround. 2. 16 to 24 Channels: Supports 9.1.6 channels of Atmos out of the box, but three optional back-chassis XLR-output modules will bring the channel count to 24 to support more immersive-audio channels, add more subwoofers, biamplify multiple speakers, or implement a mix of all three. 3. ATMOS/DTS:X: The AVP is the company’s first audio component with Dolby Atmos and DTS:X decoding …” 4. Assignable Outputs: Because all outputs are fully assignable, “we can make any channel what we want it to be,” said VP/CTO Lonnie Vaughn. “The outputs are fully assignable, and each XLR expansion module contains a dedicated dual-core Sharc processor and DACs,” Laufman said of the RMC-1. 5. Sharc for Expansion Modules: “The outputs are fully assignable, and each XLR expansion module contains a dedicated dual-core Sharc processor and DACs,” Laufman said of the RMC-1. . . . . . . . . .
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Post by lrobertson on Sept 21, 2019 17:01:07 GMT -5
I’m not sure. The issue with that is as you expand to more channels you introduce speakers in between the original 16 and even switch to others. So the system in a 11.1.8 would not only have to realize the speakers you have with the bottom 2 that you’re adding for panning but also you’d be eliminating the center height entirely and adding the front and rear wall heights. As a whole the system would need to know the layout all together to be able to pan objects. I imagine a special firmware could make what you’re saying possible though. The only reason I’m even really skeptical now is that a 13.1.10 has been announced so you’d think they’d give us the Emotiva green light with us knowing it could be in the distant future but they haven’t. So I wonder if it’s a limitation or maybe the licensing cost is something they aren’t prepared to swallow.. I think too they’re tired of telling us what will be and then having to hear our grumbling when it’s not on our time table. This is what I saw in the Official RMC-1 OWNERS Thread regarding each module having its own processor: Both Dan and Lonnie said RMC-1 expansion modules would have fully assignable outputs at 2018 CEDIA. I believe nospam (?) provided this link to Sound and Vision article on RMC-1 at 2018 CEDIA where Dan and Lonnie said RMC-1 had assignable outputs ... see point 4 in notes below: www.soundandvision.com/content/emotiva-gets-ready-1158-dolby-atmosBelow are notes on this article: NOTES: 1. ATMOS: Supports 11.5.8 channels of Dolby Atmos surround. 2. 16 to 24 Channels: Supports 9.1.6 channels of Atmos out of the box, but three optional back-chassis XLR-output modules will bring the channel count to 24 to support more immersive-audio channels, add more subwoofers, biamplify multiple speakers, or implement a mix of all three. 3. ATMOS/DTS:X: The AVP is the company’s first audio component with Dolby Atmos and DTS:X decoding …” 4. Assignable Outputs: Because all outputs are fully assignable, “we can make any channel what we want it to be,” said VP/CTO Lonnie Vaughn. “The outputs are fully assignable, and each XLR expansion module contains a dedicated dual-core Sharc processor and DACs,” Laufman said of the RMC-1. 5. Sharc for Expansion Modules: “The outputs are fully assignable, and each XLR expansion module contains a dedicated dual-core Sharc processor and DACs,” Laufman said of the RMC-1. . . . . . . . . . Since then they’ve also increased it to 28. The fine print we might be missing is fully assignable for what’s available. When we look at number 1 it states 11.5.8 Atmos but then also 24 fully assignable channels.. It won’t let us put random speaker locations supported by Atmos. There are a total of 24.1.10 options if that was the case and each time you changed from one layout to the other that’s another entire set of complex algorithms so each speaker plays as intended as a whole. Trust me I want it to be 17.1.10 capable. I always thought it was until the silence around 13.1.10 which now I’m just skeptical that’s all. This is another one of those times I hope I’m wrong. Even if it was 11.1.8 and they did give us ability to add bed arrays (big if) I can’t feel robbed for the price we paid. I’d be a little more disappointed if it was 11.1.8 max and only biamping and subs past that.
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Post by davidl81 on Sept 21, 2019 17:46:45 GMT -5
I just thinks it’s like Dolby True HD and DTS Master HD was. Studios will do one of the other, but you would never see both. And they always had a simple DD5.1 sound track. If I did not like the DD TrueHD/ATMOS track in 4k movie, today I would have to go to the 2k movie and apply DTS neural:X to the DTS HDMA 5.1 track ... if DTS is even there in the 2k movie? 4k Ready Player One has both DD TrueHD/ATMOS and DTS HDMA 5.1 to choose from ... but that is rare (but smart) to see both DD ATMOS and DTS HDMA in the same movie. The DTS HDMA 5.1/neural:X version is 5 to 7db lower than its ATMOS equivalent. Not sure why. It does sound like from multiple people here there seems to be an issue with the Neutral X up mixer on the 1.5 FM. Maybe Emotiva could/should look into that. It’s a much more pressing issue than some of the 28 channel questions that are being asked right now.
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Post by lrobertson on Sept 21, 2019 17:50:35 GMT -5
It sounds like a firmware issue that used to be good so I imagine not to challenging for them. As a speaker expansion thread assuming 20 minimum 11.1 upmixing doesn’t do much good either though. That’s why I’m less concerned about Auro as well unless they release Auromax to home audio. The implementation of DTS Pro is more related to my concerns and getting rid of the Dolby limitation. I imagine a complex firmware rewrite would be needed anyways making any of those current issues irrelevant.
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Post by bblv on Sept 21, 2019 18:11:47 GMT -5
My kinda thread! Wonder when we’re going to be updated on the current development status of the expansion modules? As mentioned above, it would be nice to know how Emo plans to make sure we get sound routed to all of these speakers.
I’ve got to be honest. At this point, this long after receiving my RMC, I’m very disappointed in their delivery and sidestepping around promises that Dan touted as game changing features (i.e. disappearance of the Emo upmixer to put all these channels to use, no news on expansion modules, cryptic comments from certain Emo employees that they MIGHT support DTS:X Pro, etc).
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Post by davidl81 on Sept 21, 2019 18:24:34 GMT -5
My kinda thread! Wonder when we’re going to be updated on the current development status of the expansion modules? As mentioned above, it would be nice to know how Emo plans to make sure we get sound routed to all of these speakers. I’ve got to be honest. At this point, this long after receiving my RMC, I’m very disappointed in their delivery and sidestepping around promises that Dan touted as game changing features (i.e. disappearance of the Emo upmixer to put all these channels to use, no news on expansion modules, cryptic comments from certain Emo employees that they MIGHT support DTS:X Pro, etc). Sounds like on the podcast expansion modules may be introduced around Oct-Nov
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Post by lrobertson on Sept 21, 2019 18:55:52 GMT -5
My kinda thread! Wonder when we’re going to be updated on the current development status of the expansion modules? As mentioned above, it would be nice to know how Emo plans to make sure we get sound routed to all of these speakers. I’ve got to be honest. At this point, this long after receiving my RMC, I’m very disappointed in their delivery and sidestepping around promises that Dan touted as game changing features (i.e. disappearance of the Emo upmixer to put all these channels to use, no news on expansion modules, cryptic comments from certain Emo employees that they MIGHT support DTS:X Pro, etc). Haha Cryptic. To be honest I feel bad putting pressure on them with how much of a headache this must of all been up to this point. They probably aged 5 years since the RMC was released with the stress... But I have to install my speakers and seal it up sooo 🤷♂️
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