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Post by gus4emo on Oct 3, 2019 11:14:37 GMT -5
So whatever media you use, all songs, recordings are perfect? Highly doubt it, lol... No, I might play it, I just know tone controls won't make it right! They work for me, even if it's a slight change, better than skipping the song...
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Post by rockman85 on Oct 3, 2019 16:51:18 GMT -5
I have been secretly not in love with my hi-fi system since I put it together. I had an unusual experience as a kid whereby my dad was given 2 Canton CT-1000s from a client which he didnt want and gave to me. There I was, 11 years old with a pair of $4,000 hifi speakers and a Sony intergrated amplfier that my Sis have to me, which itself was a handme down from our older brother. I absolutely loved these speakers, crystal clear and tons of low end. The main thing that differed between my childhood hifi system and today was that my intergrated amp had tone controls. I usually kept the bass at around +7 and the treble at around +4. I dont know if its right or wrong, but this is how I enjoy music. I have read endlessly about why tone controls were a bandaid to make up for crappy speakers etc. But regardless of this fact, and regardless of what speakers I am listening to, I enjoy a boost in these freqencies generally. In fact, my favorite pair of headphones, the Denon AH-D600 has often been desribed as V shaped. Perhaps its the kind of music I prefer, Metal and Electronica, but music just has no balls and no sparkle or air without a boost to these frequencies. I recently decided to do away with the purist attitude and use my Bluesound Node2i's Bass and Treble boost. For the first time in the two years since I put the system together did I feel that sense of OOMPH! that was missing and the clearing of the muddy neutral flat garbage that the boost in treble brings about. I really wish there were tone controls on more hifi equipment as a standard without having to dig through menus or add some other equalizer box or software. Just two knobs that boost the 80-100hz range and somewhere in the 7,000-10,000khz range. Does anyone else feel this way? When I A/B my music, unboosted just sounds so flat and ugly and boring to me. Admittedly this phenomenon is limited to the genres I mentioned, with music that is more focused on acoustic instruments or vocals the eq has way less of an effect. So who is with me? What do you do when you go to a live performance by one of your favourite artists/musicians? Ask then to pleased turn up the treble and bass? Tell them that you don't like their normal sound and it needs boosting? Complain to them face to face about their recordings having "no balls and no sparkle or air"? Just curious Cheers Gary I dont understand your point, live shows have a guy doing live EQ'ing, sometimes its good, sometimes not, but neither I nor anyone else can control a live performance save for the tech crew. Listening at home is an entirely different matter. What exactly is your point?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2019 11:39:03 GMT -5
A little snippy, this thread got, worse than politics. OMG Yes, I use tone controls, but as my equipment improved, the less I use them- but always will. Every room is different, all equipment is different, adjust accordingly. Some days i want LOUDNESS curve turn on because I feel like it Some recordings are poor- controls in use. I've work behind a live sound board and some performers can be idiots with their setups. My buddy owns a recording studio and artist will override his decades of experience because they want it that way. Artist can be a little... different. Concerts vary from sports stadiums to music halls- big difference and sometimes the sound man is under the influence or half deaf. It's a hobby folks, not rocket science going to Mars; enjoy it the way you like it. geez.
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Post by rockman85 on Oct 4, 2019 12:00:20 GMT -5
Like almost everything in audio - MY answer to this one is that "it depends": I LIKE Tone Controls (preferrably, easy to get-to) in MY CAR - I listen to both CD and Radio in our older 2010 Subaru and add XM in our newer VW. Differences between sources like these seem to require tweaking and I find that MANY FM Radio Stations have attempted to "Out-BASS" eachother to the point where if I feel the need to listen to them, I have to back WWWWaaaaaaaayyyyyyy... offf on the Bass in order to achieve some semblance to the "balanced" sound that I prefer. I also grew-up during the 1980's - when nearly EVERYTHING HAD to incorporate a Graphic Equalizer and Spectrum Analyzer Display. (AND if you were one of those rare people "with a clue" - they WERE sometimes handy for compensating for Room Acoustics if they were selective enough.) Personally, I prefer PARAMETRIC equalizers - but they don't bring the "Audio Bling Factor" of a Stereo 21-Band Graphic with LEDs on the Sliders. I helped to design several systems for Auditoriums, where we designed-in (2) Equalizers: -ONE that was set to produce a FLAT Frequency Response within the Room (Set with a room half-ful of "volunteer" sonic absorbers). That one was "locked-down", marked, and labeled. -The SECOND one was used for various types of presentations, in order to tweak the system output for their particular purposes / preferences AT HOME - I find that good recordings, played through a good sound system rarely require tweaking. Occasionally, something COULD use a little tweaking or dial-down bass when Wifey is napping etc So - IN GENERAL, I still want 'em, but I want to be able to DEFEAT / Bypass them. Preferrably, completely remove them from the circuitry when they are not needed / wanted Question for you my man, do you know if the HF LF Cut/Boost controls on the XSP-1 essentially tone controls? And what frequencies do they affect?
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Post by geeqner on Oct 4, 2019 12:47:57 GMT -5
I would ASSUME that they are / that would be their purpose. However - I do not own an XSP-1 (at least, not YET) You or somebody who DOES own one could take a look through / download the manual, which would probably include more details
FROM PRODUCTS PAGE - SPECIFICATIONS: High-Frequency and Low-Frequency Trims: HF trim (settings): -3 dB, -2 dB, -1 dB, Flat, +1 dB, +2 dB, +3 dB @ 12 kHz. HF trim (inflection point): 4 kHz. LF trim (settings): -3 dB, -2 dB, -1 dB, Flat, +1 dB, +2 dB, +3 dB @ 50 Hz. LF trim (inflection point): 200 Hz.
It would have been cool if these worked more like a Parametric - where you could select the Center Frequency and then the "Q" and boost cut within that. But if you needed more advanced control, there IS a "Processor Loop" that could be used with an External EQ or other processor and most of those DO incorporate a "Bypass" feature
HTH
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Oct 4, 2019 13:05:00 GMT -5
The Tone Trims on the XSP-1 do in fact act like traditional Tone Controls. (We call them Tone Trims because, compared to traditional Tone Controls, they only have limited range and a few steps of adjustment.)
The XSP-1 is a pure analog preamp.
The tone adjustments on the XSP-1 are accomplished using analog switches - switching actual analog components. Parametric controls using discrete analog components are very complex, require a lot of parts, and tend to introduce unintended colorations to the sound.
Virtually all modern equipment that offers parametric controls does so using DSP-based digital processing... And, in order to do so, must convert the audio signal into a digital format, process it, then convert it back into analog.
Since the signal path in the XSP-1 is purely analog this isn't an option for it.
For that sort of control you want either a full-blown processor or something like a MiniDSP box.
I would ASSUME that they are / that would be their purpose. However - I do not own an XSP-1 (at least, not YET) You or somebody who DOES own one could take a look through / download the manual, which would probably include more details FROM PRODUCTS PAGE - SPECIFICATIONS: High-Frequency and Low-Frequency Trims: HF trim (settings): -3 dB, -2 dB, -1 dB, Flat, +1 dB, +2 dB, +3 dB @ 12 kHz. HF trim (inflection point): 4 kHz. LF trim (settings): -3 dB, -2 dB, -1 dB, Flat, +1 dB, +2 dB, +3 dB @ 50 Hz. LF trim (inflection point): 200 Hz. It would have been cool if these worked more like a Parametric - where you could select the Center Frequency and then the "Q" and boost cut within that. But if you needed more advanced control, there IS a "Processor Loop" that could be used with an External EQ or other processor and most of those DO incorporate a "Bypass" feature HTH
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2019 13:13:10 GMT -5
The Tone Trims on the XSP-1 do in fact act like traditional Tone Controls. (We call them Tone Trims because, compared to traditional Tone Controls, they only have limited range and a few steps of adjustment.) The XSP-1 is a pure analog preamp.
The tone adjustments on the XSP-1 are accomplished using analog switches - switching actual analog components. Parametric controls using discrete analog components are very complex, require a lot of parts, and tend to introduce unintended colorations to the sound.
Virtually all modern equipment that offers parametric controls does so using DSP-based digital processing... And, in order to do so, must convert the audio signal into a digital format, process it, then convert it back into analog.
Since the signal path in the XSP-1 is purely analog this isn't an option for it.
For that sort of control you want either a full-blown processor or something like a MiniDSP box.
I would ASSUME that they are / that would be their purpose. However - I do not own an XSP-1 (at least, not YET) You or somebody who DOES own one could take a look through / download the manual, which would probably include more details FROM PRODUCTS PAGE - SPECIFICATIONS: High-Frequency and Low-Frequency Trims: HF trim (settings): -3 dB, -2 dB, -1 dB, Flat, +1 dB, +2 dB, +3 dB @ 12 kHz. HF trim (inflection point): 4 kHz. LF trim (settings): -3 dB, -2 dB, -1 dB, Flat, +1 dB, +2 dB, +3 dB @ 50 Hz. LF trim (inflection point): 200 Hz. It would have been cool if these worked more like a Parametric - where you could select the Center Frequency and then the "Q" and boost cut within that. But if you needed more advanced control, there IS a "Processor Loop" that could be used with an External EQ or other processor and most of those DO incorporate a "Bypass" feature HTH If I recall Keith, you mentioned that older tone controls used LCR networks that caused a slight phase shift, thus a slight distortion in sound. Is my memory correct?
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Post by 405x5 on Oct 4, 2019 19:33:24 GMT -5
I have been secretly not in love with my hi-fi system since I put it together. I had an unusual experience as a kid whereby my dad was given 2 Canton CT-1000s from a client which he didnt want and gave to me. There I was, 11 years old with a pair of $4,000 hifi speakers and a Sony intergrated amplfier that my Sis have to me, which itself was a handme down from our older brother. I absolutely loved these speakers, crystal clear and tons of low end. The main thing that differed between my childhood hifi system and today was that my intergrated amp had tone controls. I usually kept the bass at around +7 and the treble at around +4. I dont know if its right or wrong, but this is how I enjoy music. I have read endlessly about why tone controls were a bandaid to make up for crappy speakers etc. But regardless of this fact, and regardless of what speakers I am listening to, I enjoy a boost in these freqencies generally. In fact, my favorite pair of headphones, the Denon AH-D600 has often been desribed as V shaped. Perhaps its the kind of music I prefer, Metal and Electronica, but music just has no balls and no sparkle or air without a boost to these frequencies. I recently decided to do away with the purist attitude and use my Bluesound Node2i's Bass and Treble boost. For the first time in the two years since I put the system together did I feel that sense of OOMPH! that was missing and the clearing of the muddy neutral flat garbage that the boost in treble brings about. I really wish there were tone controls on more hifi equipment as a standard without having to dig through menus or add some other equalizer box or software. Just two knobs that boost the 80-100hz range and somewhere in the 7,000-10,000khz range. Does anyone else feel this way? When I A/B my music, unboosted just sounds so flat and ugly and boring to me. Admittedly this phenomenon is limited to the genres I mentioned, with music that is more focused on acoustic instruments or vocals the eq has way less of an effect. So who is with me? Maybe these days “control of the tone” rather than “tone controls” is a better way of putting it, as in the case of the XMC1, where it’s necessary to go into the setup menu to make Those Bass and Treble adjustments. The need for that kind of tweaking will never go away, unless all of us live in the same room, with the same measurements, speakers, etc. Once I achieved a happy medium it stays, more or less. My outboard subwoofer is the go to tone control, and I rarely touch the treble. Bill
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Post by audiobill on Oct 4, 2019 20:13:04 GMT -5
Just use rew to get your speakers placed properly, and leave your electronics flat.
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Post by monkumonku on Oct 4, 2019 21:09:09 GMT -5
I have been secretly not in love with my hi-fi system since I put it together. I had an unusual experience as a kid whereby my dad was given 2 Canton CT-1000s from a client which he didnt want and gave to me. There I was, 11 years old with a pair of $4,000 hifi speakers and a Sony intergrated amplfier that my Sis have to me, which itself was a handme down from our older brother. I absolutely loved these speakers, crystal clear and tons of low end. The main thing that differed between my childhood hifi system and today was that my intergrated amp had tone controls. I usually kept the bass at around +7 and the treble at around +4. I dont know if its right or wrong, but this is how I enjoy music. I have read endlessly about why tone controls were a bandaid to make up for crappy speakers etc. But regardless of this fact, and regardless of what speakers I am listening to, I enjoy a boost in these freqencies generally. In fact, my favorite pair of headphones, the Denon AH-D600 has often been desribed as V shaped. Perhaps its the kind of music I prefer, Metal and Electronica, but music just has no balls and no sparkle or air without a boost to these frequencies. I recently decided to do away with the purist attitude and use my Bluesound Node2i's Bass and Treble boost. For the first time in the two years since I put the system together did I feel that sense of OOMPH! that was missing and the clearing of the muddy neutral flat garbage that the boost in treble brings about. I really wish there were tone controls on more hifi equipment as a standard without having to dig through menus or add some other equalizer box or software. Just two knobs that boost the 80-100hz range and somewhere in the 7,000-10,000khz range. Does anyone else feel this way? When I A/B my music, unboosted just sounds so flat and ugly and boring to me. Admittedly this phenomenon is limited to the genres I mentioned, with music that is more focused on acoustic instruments or vocals the eq has way less of an effect. So who is with me? Maybe these days “control of the tone” rather than “tone controls” is a better way of putting it, as in the case of the XMC1, where it’s necessary to go into the setup menu to make Those Bass and Treble adjustments. The need for that kind of tweaking will never go away, unless all of us live in the same room, with the same measurements, speakers, etc.Once I achieved a happy medium it stays, more or less. My outboard subwoofer is the go to tone control, and I rarely touch the treble. Bill But even in the same room, same measurements, speakers, etc. (which you wrote and I highlighted in red above), there are two variables that still could require tone controls for people: One, not everyone has the same taste in what they think is "good" sound or even "neutral" sound. And two, recordings themselves are variable. So having a one size fits all system is not possible because not all people and not all recordings are one size.
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Post by 405x5 on Oct 4, 2019 21:22:42 GMT -5
Maybe these days “control of the tone” rather than “tone controls” is a better way of putting it, as in the case of the XMC1, where it’s necessary to go into the setup menu to make Those Bass and Treble adjustments. The need for that kind of tweaking will never go away, unless all of us live in the same room, with the same measurements, speakers, etc.Once I achieved a happy medium it stays, more or less. My outboard subwoofer is the go to tone control, and I rarely touch the treble. Bill But even in the same room, same measurements, speakers, etc. (which you wrote and I highlighted in red above), there are two variables that still could require tone controls for people: One, not everyone has the same taste in what they think is "good" sound or even "neutral" sound. And two, recordings themselves are variable. So having a one size fits all system is not possible because not all people and not all recordings are one size. Oops! I screwed up (tired) and you’re absolutely correct! Your red highlighted is simply what I should have omitted altogether to drive my point....thanks! Bills
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