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Post by thezone on Oct 28, 2019 23:26:42 GMT -5
Hi all,
I know there are countless old threads on which is the best for listening to older sound sources but after experimentation I'm happy with Dolby PLII Movies for all sources of 5.1, 6.1, 7.1 and older 2.0 video soundtracks (not for stereo music listening).
I have noticed however, that setting the XMC-1 default surround to "Auto" results in Dolby PLII Music for everything, anyone know why this would be?
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Post by audiogeek on Oct 29, 2019 1:00:40 GMT -5
I just noticed the same thing...
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Post by wilburthegoose on Oct 29, 2019 5:10:57 GMT -5
So don't use "auto".
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Post by cwt on Oct 29, 2019 5:38:41 GMT -5
I have noticed however, that setting the XMC-1 default surround to "Auto" results in Dolby PLII Music for everything, anyone know why this would be? Auto applies a dsp mode to better match your speaker setup in bass management . Surround mode decodes the native format or accepts lpcm and doesn't apply any dsp mode . Not the best nomenclature most are used too but both options are available  For those who don't like DSU or DTS Neural ; pl2x is very rare indeed.. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 29, 2019 8:07:26 GMT -5
This came up in the V3 thread maybe a year ago, I think it only happens with that board? I noticed it as well, it wasn’t the PLIIx that was annoying, but rather that it always defaulted to Music when you mostly wanted Movie.
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Post by creimes on Oct 29, 2019 8:17:04 GMT -5
My XMC-1 with 1.4 board does the same exact thing, for anything multichannel I use "Surround" mode and for 2ch I flip back and forth between "Stereo" and "Reference Stereo" modes depending what I am listening to.
Chad
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 29, 2019 8:39:34 GMT -5
My XMC-1 with 1.4 board does the same exact thing, for anything multichannel I use "Surround" mode and for 2ch I flip back and forth between "Stereo" and "Reference Stereo" modes depending what I am listening to. Chad Doesn’t ‘Surround’ limit 5.1 to 5 channels (no upmixing to 7)? |
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Post by creimes on Oct 29, 2019 9:48:45 GMT -5
My XMC-1 with 1.4 board does the same exact thing, for anything multichannel I use "Surround" mode and for 2ch I flip back and forth between "Stereo" and "Reference Stereo" modes depending what I am listening to. Chad Doesn’t ‘Surround’ limit 5.1 to 5 channels (no upmixing to 7)? No clue, I only have 5 channels, I'm stuck in the dark ages of surround  |
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Post by millst on Oct 29, 2019 10:35:30 GMT -5
I'd guess that the root of OP's issue is PLIIX defaults to music mode for any 2-channel source. Turning off auto mode doesn't help if you want PLIIX. It's annoying that there is no way to configure it per input. XMC has always been this way, not going to change now.
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Post by audiogeek on Oct 29, 2019 11:07:43 GMT -5
I thought you could set a multichannel and 2 channel default mode for each input in the setup?
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator 
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,490
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Post by LCSeminole on Oct 29, 2019 11:39:48 GMT -5
I thought you could set a multichannel and 2 channel default mode for each input in the setup? You are correct, you can. |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,929
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Post by KeithL on Oct 29, 2019 11:44:51 GMT -5
Auto Mode is quite necessary and useful - for several reasons.
The fact is that you CANNOT "choose whatever mode you like"... and being allowed to manually choose what mode to use for each source would be a very bad thing.
For example, try playing a Dolby Atmos disc in DTS:X and see what you get..... (you get nothing at all because a DTS;X decoder cannot decode Atmos content). Likewise, try actually playing a Dolby Digital 5.1 recording using PLIIx..... (if it doesn't mute you'll get to hear what ones and zeros sound like - and it's not nice at all). That's because a DD 5.1 source MUST be decoded using Dolby Digital..... (you cannot decode it using DTS, or PLIIx, or listen to it in plain old stereo, because all you'll hear is ones and zeros).
If you've ever listened to an old-type "DTS" CD on something that doesn't support DTS then you know exactly what it sounds like.
Do you really WANT the option of hearing a blast of nasty full-volume "static" if you select the wrong mode?
That's why EVERY modern processor uses some sort of "auto mode" to avoid trying to decode sources in ways that simply will not work.
Even the mode called "Surround" on the XMC-1 is really an auto mode.... because it detects whether a disc is in DTS or Dolby Digital and plays it using the right decoder.
I suspect that some of you on this thread don't know what the XMC-1 is actually DOING a lot of the time.
When you select "Surround Mode" it will play your source in the surround mode in which it is recorded.
For example, a DD 5.1 source will play in 5.1 channels and a TrueHD 7.1 source will play in 7.1 channels. (And, if you have 7.1 speakers, and play a TrueHD 5.1 disc, nothing will come out of the rear surrounds.... because there's nothing in those channels.)
Now, if you have 7.1 speakers, and you play a DD 5.1 source, AND YOU HAVE THE XMC-1 SET TO AUTO MODE....... The XMC-1 will do its best to match the source to the speakers you have...... So it will first decode that disc in DD 5.1 (because that's the only choice that will work)...
THEN it will use PLIIx to upmix those 5.1 channels to 7.1 to "fill all your speakers". (Or, if you've set it that way, it will use DTS Neo6 to do so instead.)
IMHO, "Auto" setting is useless and outdated these days, (perhaps it always was) with the ever increasing audio processing modes to choose from, depending on source materials. Why bother?? I have no idea......I just configure each HDMI to THE MOST COMMON "go to" for that particular input and manually configure from there as necessary. Bill |
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Post by 405x5 on Oct 29, 2019 12:03:09 GMT -5
Auto Mode is quite necessary and useful - for several reasons.
The fact is that you CANNOT "choose whatever mode you like"... and being allowed to manually choose what mode to use for each source would be a very bad thing.
For example, try playing a Dolby Atmos disc in DTS:X and see what you get..... (you get nothing at all because a DTS;X decoder cannot decode Atmos content). Likewise, try actually playing a Dolby Digital 5.1 recording using PLIIx..... (if it doesn't mute you'll get to hear what ones and zeros sound like - and it's not nice at all). That's because a DD 5.1 source MUST be decoded using Dolby Digital..... (you cannot decode it using DTS, or PLIIx, or listen to it in plain old stereo, because all you'll hear is ones and zeros).
If you've ever listened to an old-type "DTS" CD on something that doesn't support DTS then you know exactly what it sounds like.
Do you really WANT the option of hearing a blast of nasty full-volume "static" if you select the wrong mode?
That's why EVERY modern processor uses some sort of "auto mode" to avoid trying to decode sources in ways that simply will not work.
Even the mode called "Surround" on the XMC-1 is really an auto mode.... because it detects whether a disc is in DTS or Dolby Digital and plays it using the right decoder.
I suspect that some of you on this thread don't know what the XMC-1 is actually DOING a lot of the time.
When you select "Surround Mode" it will play your source in the surround mode in which it is recorded.
For example, a DD 5.1 source will play in 5.1 channels and a TrueHD 7.1 source will play in 7.1 channels. (And, if you have 7.1 speakers, and play a TrueHD 5.1 disc, nothing will come out of the rear surrounds.... because there's nothing in those channels.)
Now, if you have 7.1 speakers, and you play a DD 5.1 source, AND YOU HAVE THE XMC-1 SET TO AUTO MODE....... The XMC-1 will do its best to match the source to the speakers you have...... So it will first decode that disc in DD 5.1 (because that's the only choice that will work)...
THEN it will use PLIIx to upmix those 5.1 channels to 7.1 to "fill all your speakers". (Or, if you've set it that way, it will use DTS Neo6 to do so instead.)
IMHO, "Auto" setting is useless and outdated these days, (perhaps it always was) with the ever increasing audio processing modes to choose from, depending on source materials. Why bother?? I have no idea......I just configure each HDMI to THE MOST COMMON "go to" for that particular input and manually configure from there as necessary. Bill Very interesting......I wasn't thinking (or looking) at the way the processor was operating internally when setting up the HDMI configurations. The ones I use configured manually as I have them (but as you point out, there is some automatic configuring going on in there anyway), are working as expected, but I get the same thing happening as others have described here at times. I'm also a non ATMOS user, which simplifies things quite a bit. I have one of those old DTS compact discs you mentioned and I never try listening to it. It has done scary things with not only the XMC, but also its predecessor, the Sunfire Theater Grand II. I will be relegating it to my FRISBEE collection shortly, as there are better streaming recordings of it out there anyway. By the way, the scary digital popping was happening even with everything auto and DTS capability on all the equipment in play. Bill |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,929
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Post by KeithL on Oct 29, 2019 13:55:44 GMT -5
The way it works with those DTS discs is that the DTS encoded digital signal is simply delivered "packed into a WAV file".
If you play that CD on a disc player with a digital output - AND IF THE DIGITAL OUTPUT IS BIT PERFECT - the XMC-1, and many other DTS-capable devices, should play it if you send it into a digital input.
(In the past I have seen the XMC-1 successfully play DTS-WAVs in file format when played from an Oppo player, with all the config settings just right, but I haven't confirmed it lately, and you don't see many of them these days.)
(A CD player that actually supported DTS should also be able to play it - but most do not.)
The trick is that you cannot alter the digital bitstream - at all. So, for example, if you were playing it on a computer, you must be using bit-perfect WASAPI mode, and must NOT use any sort of digital volume control which alters the bits (some work OK with the volume set to exactly 100%). The reason you get the blast of nasty noise is that, if the bitstream has been altered, it is then no longer a valid DTS bit-stream, and is simply a WAV file containing more or less pure noise. But, since there is no flag to identify it, the player then simply "plays it as it lies", as if it were a WAV file.
Auto Mode is quite necessary and useful - for several reasons. The fact is that you CANNOT "choose whatever mode you like"... and being allowed to manually choose what mode to use for each source would be a very bad thing.
For example, try playing a Dolby Atmos disc in DTS:X and see what you get..... (you get nothing at all because a DTS;X decoder cannot decode Atmos content). Likewise, try actually playing a Dolby Digital 5.1 recording using PLIIx..... (if it doesn't mute you'll get to hear what ones and zeros sound like - and it's not nice at all). That's because a DD 5.1 source MUST be decoded using Dolby Digital..... (you cannot decode it using DTS, or PLIIx, or listen to it in plain old stereo, because all you'll hear is ones and zeros).
If you've ever listened to an old-type "DTS" CD on something that doesn't support DTS then you know exactly what it sounds like. Do you really WANT the option of hearing a blast of nasty full-volume "static" if you select the wrong mode?
That's why EVERY modern processor uses some sort of "auto mode" to avoid trying to decode sources in ways that simply will not work.
Even the mode called "Surround" on the XMC-1 is really an auto mode.... because it detects whether a disc is in DTS or Dolby Digital and plays it using the right decoder.
I suspect that some of you on this thread don't know what the XMC-1 is actually DOING a lot of the time. When you select "Surround Mode" it will play your source in the surround mode in which it is recorded.
For example, a DD 5.1 source will play in 5.1 channels and a TrueHD 7.1 source will play in 7.1 channels. (And, if you have 7.1 speakers, and play a TrueHD 5.1 disc, nothing will come out of the rear surrounds.... because there's nothing in those channels.) Now, if you have 7.1 speakers, and you play a DD 5.1 source, AND YOU HAVE THE XMC-1 SET TO AUTO MODE....... The XMC-1 will do its best to match the source to the speakers you have...... So it will first decode that disc in DD 5.1 (because that's the only choice that will work)...
THEN it will use PLIIx to upmix those 5.1 channels to 7.1 to "fill all your speakers". (Or, if you've set it that way, it will use DTS Neo6 to do so instead.)
Very interesting......I wasn't thinking (or looking) at the way the processor was operating internally when setting up the HDMI configurations. The ones I use configured manually as I have them (but as you point out, there is some automatic configuring going on in there anyway), are working as expected, but I get the same thing happening as others have described here at times. I'm also a non ATMOS user, which simplifies things quite a bit. I have one of those old DTS compact discs you mentioned and I never try listening to it. It has done scary things with not only the XMC, but also its predecessor, the Sunfire Theater Grand II. I will be relegating it to my FRISBEE collection shortly, as there are better streaming recordings of it out there anyway. By the way, the scary digital popping was happening even with everything auto and DTS capability on all the equipment in play. Bill |
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Post by hsamwel on Oct 29, 2019 19:20:24 GMT -5
Auto Mode is quite necessary and useful - for several reasons.
The fact is that you CANNOT "choose whatever mode you like"... and being allowed to manually choose what mode to use for each source would be a very bad thing.
For example, try playing a Dolby Atmos disc in DTS:X and see what you get..... (you get nothing at all because a DTS;X decoder cannot decode Atmos content). Likewise, try actually playing a Dolby Digital 5.1 recording using PLIIx..... (if it doesn't mute you'll get to hear what ones and zeros sound like - and it's not nice at all). That's because a DD 5.1 source MUST be decoded using Dolby Digital..... (you cannot decode it using DTS, or PLIIx, or listen to it in plain old stereo, because all you'll hear is ones and zeros).
If you've ever listened to an old-type "DTS" CD on something that doesn't support DTS then you know exactly what it sounds like.
Do you really WANT the option of hearing a blast of nasty full-volume "static" if you select the wrong mode?
That's why EVERY modern processor uses some sort of "auto mode" to avoid trying to decode sources in ways that simply will not work.
Even the mode called "Surround" on the XMC-1 is really an auto mode.... because it detects whether a disc is in DTS or Dolby Digital and plays it using the right decoder.
I suspect that some of you on this thread don't know what the XMC-1 is actually DOING a lot of the time.
When you select "Surround Mode" it will play your source in the surround mode in which it is recorded.
For example, a DD 5.1 source will play in 5.1 channels and a TrueHD 7.1 source will play in 7.1 channels. (And, if you have 7.1 speakers, and play a TrueHD 5.1 disc, nothing will come out of the rear surrounds.... because there's nothing in those channels.)
Now, if you have 7.1 speakers, and you play a DD 5.1 source, AND YOU HAVE THE XMC-1 SET TO AUTO MODE....... The XMC-1 will do its best to match the source to the speakers you have...... So it will first decode that disc in DD 5.1 (because that's the only choice that will work)...
THEN it will use PLIIx to upmix those 5.1 channels to 7.1 to "fill all your speakers". (Or, if you've set it that way, it will use DTS Neo6 to do so instead.)
IMHO, "Auto" setting is useless and outdated these days, (perhaps it always was) with the ever increasing audio processing modes to choose from, depending on source materials. Why bother?? I have no idea......I just configure each HDMI to THE MOST COMMON "go to" for that particular input and manually configure from there as necessary. Bill Could you please rename the surround mode to Straight. Surround is such a STRANGE name to call this sound mode. Reference Stereo is mostly called Pure Direct by others. Although I actually like your name better in this instance. Especially since your Direct mode for multi channel sound is actually Pure Direct but not pure in the regard that it does bass management for 2ch input. Which I suppose it does for all channels as well depending on speaker setup. The stupid thing is that the others do not follow a standard either. Sound modes should use standard names so it’s easier to go from one manufacturer to another. Pure direct in my mind is straight decoding without bass mangement or processing. Only for 2ch input. Same as Reference Stereo. Direct is straight decoding with bass management and with minimal processing. Used for multi channel. Same as Surround. Your Direct is actually more like Pure Direct with bass management. Btw.. Emotiva processors does not handle Dolby Digital EX and DTS ES matrixed formats with 7.x setups? Also DTS 96/24 also isn’t supported it seems.. Could youqwsupport for these? |
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Post by cwt on Oct 30, 2019 0:25:10 GMT -5
Emotiva processors does not handle Dolby Digital EX and DTS ES matrixed formats with 7.x setups? Also DTS 96/24 also isn’t supported it seems.. Could youqwsupport for these? Yes DDex isn't listed/absent for those dvds with a flag to activate it like Harry Potter etc . Unusually discrete dts-es is listed as well as dts-es matrix as a dsp processing mode [so should work for your Back Surrounds ? something in the setup ?] . Had a wry smile ages ago when I noticed lpcm5.1 and 7.1 were listed as decoding modes  |
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Post by millst on Oct 30, 2019 15:02:56 GMT -5
I thought you could set a multichannel and 2 channel default mode for each input in the setup? You are correct, you can. And you'll still be stuck with music mode defaulted on for your 2-channel content...which sucks when you're trying to watch a TV show on a streaming device. |
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Post by foggy1956 on Oct 30, 2019 19:49:13 GMT -5
You are correct, you can. And you'll still be stuck with music mode defaulted on for your 2-channel content...which sucks when you're trying to watch a TV show on a streaming device. I can set mine to plii movie or many other defaults for 2 channel content. |
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Post by millst on Oct 30, 2019 22:09:25 GMT -5
Ah, true...that's how mine are set. I'm not sure if this is something that was improved with a firmware update or if there is a bug with honoring the setting. It definitely did not work right for me at one point. I clearly remember having to add the movie/music buttons to my harmony remote and later writing some software to use the network API to fix it.
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Post by hsamwel on Nov 1, 2019 9:25:51 GMT -5
Emotiva processors does not handle Dolby Digital EX and DTS ES matrixed formats with 7.x setups? Also DTS 96/24 also isn’t supported it seems.. Could youqwsupport for these? Yes DDex isn't listed/absent for those dvds with a flag to activate it like Harry Potter etc . Unusually discrete dts-es is listed as well as dts-es matrix as a dsp processing mode [so should work for your Back Surrounds ? something in the setup ?] . Had a wry smile ages ago when I noticed lpcm5.1 and 7.1 were listed as decoding modes None of the matrixed formats are supported on RMC.. I tested both Dolby Digital EX and DTS ES 5.1, they’re not reqognised and handled as unique formats. DTS ES 6.1 discrete is though.. Is DTS ES 5.1 recognised on XMC-1? I would like to have these formats handled correctly in Surround mode with straight decoding. |
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