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Post by cwmcobra on Nov 3, 2019 8:26:14 GMT -5
I'm SLOWLY building my home theater and have settled on a 9.4.6 layout. My question is which Emotiva processor will provide these outputs at the lowest cost? I think I know the answer, but would like to hear confirmation from you who are sharper on this subject than my aging brain seems to be.  I know that I could use any of the processors from XMC-2 to RMC-1 with a 9.2.6 layout by using a splitter on the Center Sub output to direct the same mono signal to each of two subs. But adding two more subs suggests to me only one option, going all the way to the RMC-1 so that I can add the multiple subwoofer module when it becomes available. And I assume this arrangement would provide for the best implementation of the Dirac Live Bass Management module as well. So, am I missing other options? I know I could drop back to Dolby's 9.1.4 layout and assume that any of the processors would support a 9.4.4 configuration. That seems like a compromise, but one I might have to consider. Then there's the mystery of what layout options DTS:X Pro will accommodate... Thanks in advance for your advice. With confirmation of any options for this layout, I'll feel more confident to confirm a layout and required audio equipment. Cheers! Chuck |
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Post by petew on Nov 3, 2019 11:55:47 GMT -5
I'd wait for the dust to settle with a bunch of 16 channel processors about to hit the market. I think it would be a mistake to buy any of them until they are released, reviewed, complete, mostly bug free, and have every feature that you need available now.
Dirac Bass Management is not available on anything right now. And I'm not holding my breath waiting for Emotiva to roll out solid firmware or expansion modules.
From what I've found, everyone else is using the TI/MDS platform except for Emotiva (Analog Devices DSP). Dirac is working now on the Monoprice HTP-1 in beta and reported to be working on the Harman based processors (Arcam, JBL, etc).
I'm not a bleeding edge guy, and limited to 7.x.4 in my space, therefore I'll have a lot of options available soon. Are top end processors an option for you like Trinnov, etc?
Another solid option for you would be to process the .1 channel with a midiDSP device.
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Post by davidl81 on Nov 3, 2019 13:14:39 GMT -5
I'm SLOWLY building my home theater and have settled on a 9.4.6 layout. My question is which Emotiva processor will provide these outputs at the lowest cost? I think I know the answer, but would like to hear confirmation from you who are sharper on this subject than my aging brain seems to be. I know that I could use any of the processors from XMC-2 to RMC-1 with a 9.2.6 layout by using a splitter on the Center Sub output to direct the same mono signal to each of two subs. But adding two more subs suggests to me only one option, going all the way to the RMC-1 so that I can add the multiple subwoofer module when it becomes available. And I assume this arrangement would provide for the best implementation of the Dirac Live Bass Management module as well. So, am I missing other options? I know I could drop back to Dolby's 9.1.4 layout and assume that any of the processors would support a 9.4.4 configuration. That seems like a compromise, but one I might have to consider. Then there's the mystery of what layout options DTS:X Pro will accommodate... Thanks in advance for your advice. With confirmation of any options for this layout, I'll feel more confident to confirm a layout and required audio equipment. Cheers! Chuck So you can go XMC-2 for 3k or RMC-1 for 5k plus (guessing)$500 for the sun expansion module. So $2500 more may get you better sub control IF Emotiva get Dirac with bass management. Right now it looks like just Dirac MAY be Q1 2020, so who knows when bass management is coming. All this being said I currently have an RMC-1 and I have been pretty happy with it. My biggest issue has been with DTS-HD locking, but sounds like that may be addressed in FW 1.7. Before this I had a Marantz AV8802a. The Marantz was rock solid, no issues with anything and really fast overall. But the RMC-1 (without Dirac) just sounds better and more dynamic than the AV8802. Its much more noticeable in 2 channel where I find the RMC-1 to be leaps above the Marantz. I don’t know if any of this helps you, just giving you some of my thoughts. |
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Post by cwmcobra on Nov 3, 2019 20:21:09 GMT -5
I'd wait for the dust to settle with a bunch of 16 channel processors about to hit the market. I think it would be a mistake to buy any of them until they are released, reviewed, complete, mostly bug free, and have every feature that you need available now. Dirac Bass Management is not available on anything right now. And I'm not holding my breath waiting for Emotiva to roll out solid firmware or expansion modules. From what I've found, everyone else is using the TI/MDS platform except for Emotiva (Analog Devices DSP). Dirac is working now on the Monoprice HTP-1 in beta and reported to be working on the Harman based processors (Arcam, JBL, etc). I'm not a bleeding edge guy, and limited to 7.x.4 in my space, therefore I'll have a lot of options available soon. Are top end processors an option for you like Trinnov, etc? Another solid option for you would be to process the .1 channel with a midiDSP device. Hey Pete, I understand your thoughts. And I think I'm far enough away timewise from firing up electronics, I expect the processor picture will be a lot more clear by that time. Top end processors on not my radar; I'm not that much of an enthusiast... My question really is whether I'm on the right track in terms of processor capability for the number of channels and multiple subs that I'd like to install. One way or another, I'll have to get comfortable with that strategy soon. Chuck |
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Post by emofrmcgy on Nov 3, 2019 20:26:36 GMT -5
Personally I would wait until we get more details on the multi sub option from Dirac..
It may not work correctly to optimize multiple subs..It may just be easier or better to use a minidsp 2x4.
It may be the bee's knees...we just don't know yet.
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Post by cwmcobra on Nov 3, 2019 20:39:54 GMT -5
I'm SLOWLY building my home theater and have settled on a 9.4.6 layout. My question is which Emotiva processor will provide these outputs at the lowest cost? I think I know the answer, but would like to hear confirmation from you who are sharper on this subject than my aging brain seems to be. I know that I could use any of the processors from XMC-2 to RMC-1 with a 9.2.6 layout by using a splitter on the Center Sub output to direct the same mono signal to each of two subs. But adding two more subs suggests to me only one option, going all the way to the RMC-1 so that I can add the multiple subwoofer module when it becomes available. And I assume this arrangement would provide for the best implementation of the Dirac Live Bass Management module as well. So, am I missing other options? I know I could drop back to Dolby's 9.1.4 layout and assume that any of the processors would support a 9.4.4 configuration. That seems like a compromise, but one I might have to consider. Then there's the mystery of what layout options DTS:X Pro will accommodate... Thanks in advance for your advice. With confirmation of any options for this layout, I'll feel more confident to confirm a layout and required audio equipment. Cheers! Chuck So you can go XMC-2 for 3k or RMC-1 for 5k plus (guessing)$500 for the sun expansion module. So $2500 more may get you better sub control IF Emotiva get Dirac with bass management. Right now it looks like just Dirac MAY be Q1 2020, so who knows when bass management is coming. All this being said I currently have an RMC-1 and I have been pretty happy with it. My biggest issue has been with DTS-HD locking, but sounds like that may be addressed in FW 1.7. Before this I had a Marantz AV8802a. The Marantz was rock solid, no issues with anything and really fast overall. But the RMC-1 (without Dirac) just sounds better and more dynamic than the AV8802. Its much more noticeable in 2 channel where I find the RMC-1 to be leaps above the Marantz. I don’t know if any of this helps you, just giving you some of my thoughts. Thanks for your thoughts David. You mention sub control with Dirac Bass Management and I have thought I'd like to incorporate it into my system. Your comment has led me to a thought on another option to accommodate 4 subs. I was thinking I'd have to go to the RMC-1 with sub expansion module to do 9.4.6, just based on having the proper channel outputs in the processor. And I'm beginning to understand that I should be able to 'daisy chain' more than 2 subs even with the XMC-2 by using a splitter with 4 or more outputs. I'm thinking something like THIS. That would give me one mono output that would be directed to all 4 subs. I suspect that's the most basic way to address getting 4 subs into a 9.x.6 system. But I'm also sure it limits capability to use any correction, such as Dirac. My thinking is still a bit fuzzy on this...please forgive my rambling. Chuck |
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Post by cwmcobra on Nov 3, 2019 20:44:06 GMT -5
Personally I would wait until we get more details on the multi sub option from Dirac.. It may not work correctly to optimize multiple subs..It may just be easier or better to use a minidsp 2x4. It may be the bee's knees...we just don't know yet. Well, here I am demonstrating my lack of knowledge on what a minidsp does and how it can accomplish the goal for my system. Thanks for the info; this appears to the the "splitter" that I was looking for as an option. Would this allow application of Dirac correction? Chuck |
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Post by emofrmcgy on Nov 3, 2019 21:31:58 GMT -5
Personally I would wait until we get more details on the multi sub option from Dirac.. It may not work correctly to optimize multiple subs..It may just be easier or better to use a minidsp 2x4. It may be the bee's knees...we just don't know yet. Well, here I am demonstrating my lack of knowledge on what a minidsp does and how it can accomplish the goal for my system. Thanks for the info; this appears to the the "splitter" that I was looking for as an option. Would this allow application of Dirac correction? Chuck The minidsp allows you to set delays on the 4 separate and non-equidistant subwoofers. You then connect the single sub connection on your prepro and Dirac WILL correct them TOGETHER. We don't yet know how the sub add-ons from Dirac are going to handle multiple subs.. whether it'll be an automatic MSO (multi sub optimizer) or whether it will correct them in the fashion that xt32 does. www.minidsp.com/applications/home-theater-tuning/ddrc-88a-multi-sub-optimizer |
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Post by cwmcobra on Nov 3, 2019 22:22:25 GMT -5
Well, here I am demonstrating my lack of knowledge on what a minidsp does and how it can accomplish the goal for my system. Thanks for the info; this appears to the the "splitter" that I was looking for as an option. Would this allow application of Dirac correction? Chuck The minidsp allows you to set delays on the 4 separate and non-equidistant subwoofers. You then connect the single sub connection on your prepro and Dirac WILL correct them TOGETHER. We don't yet know how the sub add-ons from Dirac are going to handle multiple subs.. whether it'll be an automatic MSO (multi sub optimizer) or whether it will correct them in the fashion that xt32 does. www.minidsp.com/applications/home-theater-tuning/ddrc-88a-multi-sub-optimizerThanks for the info. This confirms that I can incorporate the 4 subs using any of the Emotiva processors, if desired, when my theater is ready. Now to wait and see how the processors and new Dirac work out! Chuck |
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Post by dust770 on Nov 3, 2019 22:59:12 GMT -5
If your interested, a guy from a Home Theater group I'm in, on Facebook, made a video from start to finish on buying a mini dsp and using REW with the Minidsp to phase align 4 subs. It's a little rough but well worth the watch if your a novice. He did it as a favor to the group. You basically unify all the subs as one, then run the correction from there in Mono, not dual mono. Only thing I would leave out is the eq. When I applied EQ filters to Rew then imported them into the mini dsp, then ran Dirac, I got some crazy results. If you do it, just align all the subs and run Dirac after. youtu.be/_A6gPCczhuU |
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Post by cwmcobra on Nov 3, 2019 23:04:33 GMT -5
If your interested, a guy from a Home Theater group I'm in, on Facebook, made a video from start to finish on buying a mini dsp and using REW with the Minidsp to phase align 4 subs. It's a little rough but well worth the watch if your a novice. He did it as a favor to the group. You basically unify all the subs as one, then run the correction from there in Mono, not dual mono. Only thing I would leave out is the eq. When I applied EQ filters to Rew then imported them into the mini dsp, then ran Dirac, I got some crazy results. If you do it, just align all the subs and run Dirac after. youtu.be/_A6gPCczhuUThanks! Chuck |
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Post by emofrmcgy on Nov 3, 2019 23:21:50 GMT -5
If your interested, a guy from a Home Theater group I'm in, on Facebook, made a video from start to finish on buying a mini dsp and using REW with the Minidsp to phase align 4 subs. It's a little rough but well worth the watch if your a novice. He did it as a favor to the group. You basically unify all the subs as one, then run the correction from there in Mono, not dual mono. Only thing I would leave out is the eq. When I applied EQ filters to Rew then imported them into the mini dsp, then ran Dirac, I got some crazy results. If you do it, just align all the subs and run Dirac after. youtu.be/_A6gPCczhuUHaven't had a chance to watch it yet but Steve's a good guy. Between him and Mike Fusick they brought me to a while new level couple years back.. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Nov 3, 2019 23:24:34 GMT -5
... Top end processors on not my radar; I'm not that much of an enthusiast... ... So I think we need a ruling from the judges ... are you allowed to say you want 9.4.6, but ... you’re “not that much of an enthusiast”? 🤔 |
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Post by cwt on Nov 4, 2019 6:43:22 GMT -5
Thanks for the info. This confirms that I can incorporate the 4 subs using any of the Emotiva processors, if desired, when my theater is ready. Now to wait and see how the processors and new Dirac work out! Chuck Keep in mind Chuck that some of these new pre pro's also have configurable outputs if you can do with less atmos channels [ and 1 less box too  ]. Wise to wait; there are a few price levels in play here and some brands making promises already.. |
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Post by petew on Nov 4, 2019 7:28:40 GMT -5
Thanks for the info. This confirms that I can incorporate the 4 subs using any of the Emotiva processors, if desired, when my theater is ready. Now to wait and see how the processors and new Dirac work out! Chuck Keep in mind Chuck that some of these new pre pro's also have configurable outputs if you can do with less atmos channels [ and 1 less box too ]. Wise to wait; there are a few price levels in play here and some brands making promises already.. That's why I'm holding out for reviews on the Monoprice HTP-1. A supported configuration is 7.5.4 which matches my layout perfectly (7.4.4). Now if I could just use that extra channel to do active two way XO on my center... |
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Post by cwmcobra on Nov 4, 2019 7:52:32 GMT -5
... Top end processors on not my radar; I'm not that much of an enthusiast... ... So I think we need a ruling from the judges ... are you allowed to say you want 9.4.6, but ... you’re “not that much of an enthusiast”? 🤔 Let me rephrase that...not willing to spend that much to support this level of enthusiasm. That's a bit more descriptive But that's a good question...what leads me to this HT plan? 1. 9.1.6 seems to be a current "sweet spot" for immersive audio, at least with Dolby Atmos. I know DTS:X supports 7.1.4, but we're expecting more channels with DTS:X Pro. 2. So far, I have collected speakers and amps to support 9.2.6, and will need a processor that will support this layout. I know any of the Emotiva processors will. 3. I thought I'd add two more subwoofers to smooth low frequencies in the room, so that led me to 9.4.6 and my question of how to most efficiently accomplish this with Emotiva processors. Other considerations: - My room will be about 19 x 24 or 19 x 26 including an alcove in back, with an 8 foot ceiling. - Do I need 4 subwoofers? Not for volume, but again, expecting to have peaks and nulls to address and thinking 4 subs will help. - I see that Dolby has an Atmos layout for 9.1.4 as well. Will 6 overheads sound appreciably better than 4? Logic says the 'bubble' would be more immersive with 2 speakers directly overhead, but I really have no idea. - Why Emotiva processors? I have both a 40% off card and UFL, so I expect to spend less for a comparable Emotiva processor. Plus, like some others, I've been a long term customer and like to support the company. So, I'm not sure if that quantifies my level of enthusiasm, but at least you're now acquainted with my tendency to overthink and overdo most projects.  Cheers! Chuck |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Nov 4, 2019 11:06:47 GMT -5
It's worth pointing out that how simple or complicated it is to use multiple subs is going to depend to a large degree on the subs and your room. (Don't make too much of solving problems you don't have and adding capabilities you don't need.)
Here's something worth remembering.
At 10 kHz, one wavelength is about an inch, which means that having the tweeters on your speakers "perfectly phase aligned" would mean having the distances right to within about 1/8". Luckily, at those frequencies, there are so many reflections, and sound diffuses so much, that you can't hear the difference. At 1 kHz, where it's important to have your distances set right because it actually affects imaging, one wavelength is about a foot.
But, at 20 Hz, one wavelength is about FIFTY FEET. This means that, if one sub is a few feet further away than the other, you are not going to notice it.
With subs, things like how the sub interacts with the room is much more important. And, like it or not, you aren't going to work all that out precisely using calculations. And, also, a lot of the problems you can have with rooms simply cannot be corrected by EQ or electronic room correction. You're actually going to have to move some subs around - and find good spots for them. (And, if it turns out that, to sound good, you need one sub in a front corner, and one in the middle of the back wall, and one on a side wall, neither Dirac nor anything else is going to change that fact.)
The main benefit of having three or four subs is being able to pick spots for each that complement each other. By putting one in a front corner, which excites certain room modes, and another in the middle of a side wall, which excites different room modes.... You get to pick a combination where the peaks and nulls sort of add up to an overall smooth response. (And, with luck, you'll be able to get a relatively smooth response that holds true for more of the room.)
And, while fancy bass control, and independent EQ for each, may make that easier, you may well find that you don't really need it. And, if one winds up five feet further from one listening chair than another, it really isn't going to make much difference...
And, yes, when you try to "stack" corrections generated by different software, using different target goals and calculation styles, odd things can happen.
If I were setting up three of four subs I would start by running all four in mono, with a splitter, and finding the best spot in the room for each. Then, if each has its own phase and level controls, use those to balance how they all work together. Then let your system's main room correction do bass management between "your super big subwoofer" and your other speakers.
THEN, IF IT STILL DOESN'T SOUND GOOD, start worrying about "advanced subwoofer calibration" and things like that.
If your interested, a guy from a Home Theater group I'm in, on Facebook, made a video from start to finish on buying a mini dsp and using REW with the Minidsp to phase align 4 subs. It's a little rough but well worth the watch if your a novice. He did it as a favor to the group. You basically unify all the subs as one, then run the correction from there in Mono, not dual mono. Only thing I would leave out is the eq. When I applied EQ filters to Rew then imported them into the mini dsp, then ran Dirac, I got some crazy results. If you do it, just align all the subs and run Dirac after. youtu.be/_A6gPCczhuU |
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Post by cwt on Nov 4, 2019 23:15:33 GMT -5
With subs, things like how the sub interacts with the room is much more important. And, like it or not, you aren't going to work all that out precisely using calculations. And, also, a lot of the problems you can have with rooms simply cannot be corrected by EQ or electronic room correction. You're actually going to have to move some subs around - and find good spots for them. (And, if it turns out that, to sound good, you need one sub in a front corner, and one in the middle of the back wall, and one on a side wall, neither Dirac nor anything else is going to change that fact.) Whats your opinion on what Dirac says Keith ? Good marketing ? Have always kept subs away from corners to prevent bass loading etc so positioning is important indeed www.dirac.com/news/2019/8/21/dirac-live-bass-management-at-cedia-2019 |
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Post by cwmcobra on Nov 5, 2019 8:07:23 GMT -5
After watching the HT Gurus video and reading the Dirac announcement, I could interpret that Dirac Bass Management is making many of the same adjustments to the subs as are done in the minidsp/REW process, except in an automated fashion. It sounds like what the Dirac system might do is alignment of multiple subs and then blending of the low frequencies from the other speakers. But without more info from Dirac, it's impossible to confirm.
I can see the merits of the minidsp/REW process for those that like to tweak and the merits of the Dirac system for those that want an automated process with no additional boxes added on. The question is how pleasing is the audio you hear after completing either process?
I think when the time comes I'll choose an approach and have at it, hopefully based on results from both!
Chuck
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Post by cwt on Nov 5, 2019 12:49:23 GMT -5
I can see the merits of the minidsp/REW process for those that like to tweak and the merits of the Dirac system for those that want an automated process with no additional boxes added on. The question is how pleasing is the audio you hear after completing either process? I think when the time comes I'll choose an approach and have at it, hopefully based on results from both! Chuck Its worth noting that the minidsp's rely on PEQ and REW for.the sub balance process Chuck as distinct from the dirac 2.0 used for the room eq .As the minidsp site says . The Dirac sub module is a lot more sophisticated than a PEQ's IIR filters as it addresses phase and the crossover frequencies too I believe Audioholics addresses the sub placement statement in this interesting article ; www.audioholics.com/audio-technologies/dirac-live-bass-management |
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]. Wise to wait; there are a few price levels in play here and some brands making promises already.. 
