KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 6, 2019 15:59:52 GMT -5
The purpose of a transformer is to act as an impedance matching device.
(An "autotransformer" or "autoformer" is simply a transformer with non-isolated primary and secondary windings - or where the two sections are actually part of a single winding. )
In tube gear a transformer is necessary because the plate impedance of tubes is in the thousands of Ohms.... which must be matched to the 4 Ohm or 8 Ohm impedance of a loudspeaker. The only practical way to do this is with a transformer. (Yes, transformerless designs do exist, but all are inefficient, and quite impractical, from an engineering perspective.)
In solid state gear the purpose is the same....
Basically all solid state amps deliver their maximum power into a specific impedance and less power into any other impedance (which is why most deliver more power into 4 Ohms than 8 Ohms).
By adding an autoformer, McIntosh could allow their amps to deliver the same rated maximum power into a variety of different load impedances (for example 4 Ohms, 8 Ohms, and 16 Ohms).
Design is simplified because the amplifier design only need be optimized for a single specific impedance. And, since a transformer will not pass pure DC, the transformer also protects your speakers in the event that the amp's output stage fails catastrophically. However, because most solid state designs are already optimized for impedances quite similar to those presented by modern loudspeakers, the impedance matching aspect of transformers is now unnecessary.
Unfortunately, transformers also have several inherent disadvantages, some of them quite serious; - high quality audio transformers are big, heavy, and expensive (often VERY expensive)
- transformers ALWAYS introduce extra distortion, phase shift, and frequency response irregularities (better transformers minimize these issues - but they cannot be entirely avoided)
- because transformers introduce phase shift, they limit the amount of feedback which can be applied, and which could otherwise have been used to reduce the distortion they also produce
- and that limitation also limits the damping factor which can be achieved (a transformer raises the output impedance - and limits the amount of feedback you can apply to lower it)
In the early days of solid state amplifiers, when even moderately powerful solid state amplifiers were difficult to design, and somewhat prone to failure, the advantages of output transformers sometimes outweighed the disadvantages. In those days, if you were going to spend a lot of money for "a good amplifier that could deliver 100 watts into 4 Ohms", being able to only deliver 50 watts into 8 Ohms was a serious drawback.
With its autoformers, a 100 watt McIntosh amp could deliver its rated 100 watts into either 4 Ohms or 8 Ohms.
However, with modern amplifiers, the benefits are less important, and negative aspects are more significant, and the price of good quality transformers has risen dramatically.
In general, about McIntosh gear... Their technology (even now) is designed to enhance reliability. BUT... In some types of McIntosh gear, you get more and better technology than in others. Their stereo preamps, for example, have mercury switches, enclosed in a nitrogen-filled glass tube, that prevent oxidation problems. You get no such thing in their AV equipment. This actually makes very good sense - their stereo preamps may still be in service decades from now - their AV processors are obsolete by the time you get them home. Therefore, due to technical obsolescence, I'd never spend the $$$ for a McIntosh AV processor. This isn't to say that they aren't nice processors (and also very well built), but look at the resale value of an obsolete McIntosh processor... It's still higher than a mass-market brand, but still only pennies on the dollar originally spent. Some McIntosh power amps lack their "autoformer" output transformer. Some don't care, but I find that the McIntosh transformer-coupled amps sound better. If I were component shopping and could afford it, I'd happily invest in current Mac stereo preamps and power amps. Their (transformer-less) multi-channel amps & AV processors? Not so much. Some of the best sound I've heard was from a McIntosh C41 solid-state preamplifier and a MC-302 solid-state (transformer coupled) power amp. Wish I hadn't sold those... I'd wager money that those two components are not only still playing without issue, but that they also still meet their factory specifications. If you don't like McIntosh styling, fine. If you don't like (or can't afford) McIntosh prices, oh well... But I can't say enough good things about late-model McIntosh sound and reliability. I think you get what you pay for when it comes to anything else vs. McIntosh (with the exceptions noted above). Boomzilla |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 6, 2019 16:07:22 GMT -5
Dolby Atmos is an encoding and decoding technology... you can play an Atmos disc or sound track in however many channels you like - down to and including two channels.  Height channels are simply one of the new capabilities supported by the Atmos technology.
(The decoder will do its best to optimize playback of the content you have over whatever hardware you have.)
Sort of like the latest Best Buy flyer advertising a 5.2 Atmos receiver for $299  haha I'm not sure how you get Atmos from 5.2 but hey what do I know about Atmos anyways lol Price is always going to be a relative thing.... You can buy a cheap mass market Atmos capable AVR for a few hundred bucks... And you can spend $20k for a processor from DataSat (or over $100k for one from Lyngdorf)....
And, as creimes alluded to, you can spend more than the price of an RMC-1 for a single two-meter interconnect cable.
You also need to consider the realities of time and progress. The great stereo power amp you bought twenty years ago is still great... because power amps haven't changed much. Of course, if you want home theater, you're going to need a few more channels. However, if you bought the best and most expensive home theater gear in the world twenty years ago, it's now completely obsolete. The audio gear isn't going to do justice to your Dolby Atmos or DTS:X discs and the screen sure isn't 4k (and 4k is already on its way to becoming "last year's tech"). And, ten or twenty years from now, we may all be discussing whether it's worth upgrading to 256 audio channels or not, and whether 64k super-ultra-hi-def video is really worth it or not.
(Or, by then, they may be beaming all of it straight into our heads with a tiny brain implant.)
Considering how quickly technology progresses these days... I'm really not sure that worrying about whether equipment will last 20 years or 50 years is really worthwhile any more.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 6, 2019 16:20:42 GMT -5
Some do, some don't, and the benefits of some are rather overstated.
Thirty years ago a good quality precision noninductive metal film resistor cost $2; today it costs 1/10 that much. However, that doesn't mean that the old one didn't sound just as good...
It also doesn't mean that the new super accurate version, which now costs $20, will sound any better in an actual amplifier circuit.
(What it does mean is that, in a modern piece of equipment, you're far more likely to find a metal film resistor used someplace where it matters.)
The biggest improvement is NOT that the fanciest resistor you can buy today, for some outlandish price, has far better specs than the best resistor you could afford thirty years ago. The biggest improvement is that the cheapest resistor you can buy today far outperforms what was considered a decent resistor thirty or forty years ago.
I was hoping you were aware of the improvements in resistors,, capacitors, stepped attenuators and other things that affect sonics, reliability and value..... |
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Post by boomzilla on Dec 6, 2019 16:28:25 GMT -5
Hi KeithL - I agree with your critique of output transformers, point for point. In theory, output transformers are an expensive affectation for solid-state amplifiers offering little if any benefit and (potentially) some significant negatives. In practice, though, I have found that the theoretical faults to be completely inaudible. This is not to say that some (possibly even many) non-output-transformerless solid-state amplifiers can't equal the performance of the McIntosh amps. But I again assert that the McIntosh amplifiers with output autoformers are exceptionally well-made, and sound exceptionally good. They're also exceptionally expensive (perhaps because of the expensive output transformers), but within the McIntosh line, I prefer the sound of their amplifiers with transformers vs. those without. YMMV This is not to say that I wouldn't have another brand of amp (in fact, I'm currently using and loving the Emotiva PA-1s), but rather to say that if I did buy another McIntosh amplifier, I'd definitely choose one with the transformers. Boom |
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Post by creimes on Dec 6, 2019 17:33:53 GMT -5
Yes I do know that much but the whole idea of Atmos is more speakers aka more immersive soooo yeah hahaha Dolby Atmos is an encoding and decoding technology... you can play an Atmos disc or sound track in however many channels you like - down to and including two channels. Height channels are simply one of the new capabilities supported by the Atmos technology.
(The decoder will do its best to optimize playback of the content you have over whatever hardware you have.) Sort of like the latest Best Buy flyer advertising a 5.2 Atmos receiver for $299 haha I'm not sure how you get Atmos from 5.2 but hey what do I know about Atmos anyways lol |
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Dec 6, 2019 20:57:07 GMT -5
True and that applies to most all the mainstream manufacturers. For Mcintosh, as boom mentioned, the stuff from the 70's and 80's can still be repaired by Mcintosh or facilities that specialize in their gear and often with oem parts. Love Mac. Wish I could afford their new gear. Dream on! McIntosh ownership has been bounced around recently. D&M owned them for a very few years and sold them to the Fine Sound Group of Milan, Italy which is owned by Quadriva, an investment management company. We'll see how long the old fashioned McIntosh mantra can last in a profit driven empire! 🤞 |
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Post by brutiarti on Dec 7, 2019 8:59:40 GMT -5
I have/had around 12 or more schiit and emotiva products each. From those 12 around 4 had to go back to Franklin for repair. Not a single problem with schiit, maybe because it was assembled here in the US, who knows
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Post by routlaw on Dec 7, 2019 12:32:21 GMT -5
I have/had around 12 or more schiit and emotiva products each. From those 12 around 4 had to go back to Franklin for repair. Not a single problem with schiit, maybe because it was assembled here in the US, who knows Thats really unfortunate, but my experience has been considerably different. Yes I have had to send Emotiva products back but none of them were the fault of Emotiva. On one case due to my own negligence and stupidity I had to send one product back for a very minor repair that turned out to be nothing but a blown fuse on the pre-amp that Emotiva would not allow me to replace unless I voided the warranty. The other cases were due to UPS shipping damage, twice no less on the XMC-1. On the third go round Kathy Laufman personally sent one via Fedex two day air. That one arrived fine and has been working flawlessly ever since. Until this past week I have owned a total of 8 Emotiva products some still here others have been sold, they include amps, pre-amps, dac's, phono stage, and processors over six plus year span and have not had issues unless I caused them. With this past weeks delivery I am now up to 11 plus one accessory (CMX-2) . All of the new products arrived in great shape and are working perfectly. Effectively I have nothing but positive things to say about their products and customer service, at least so far. Much has been said about McIntosh audio gear which I have had no personal experience with other than to visit their showroom at CES audio shows some 15 or more years ago in the days I worked in this industry. Nice looking gear if you like that sort of styling, but from an audio performance perspective it was a big yawn and huge let down. Seriously it boring to listen to. Perhaps they have improved their performance and one can only hope so based upon those demos. |
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Post by audiobill on Dec 7, 2019 19:25:16 GMT -5
Some do, some don't, and the benefits of some are rather overstated.
Thirty years ago a good quality precision noninductive metal film resistor cost $2; today it costs 1/10 that much. However, that doesn't mean that the old one didn't sound just as good...
It also doesn't mean that the new super accurate version, which now costs $20, will sound any better in an actual amplifier circuit.
(What it does mean is that, in a modern piece of equipment, you're far more likely to find a metal film resistor used someplace where it matters.)
The biggest improvement is NOT that the fanciest resistor you can buy today, for some outlandish price, has far better specs than the best resistor you could afford thirty years ago. The biggest improvement is that the cheapest resistor you can buy today far outperforms what was considered a decent resistor thirty or forty years ago.
I was hoping you were aware of the improvements in resistors,, capacitors, stepped attenuators and other things that affect sonics, reliability and value..... Interesting, but I place a lot of value on parts quality, including electrolytic caps that don’t melt down or blow up. You guys should try them out!! Bill |
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Post by pallpoul on Dec 25, 2019 13:06:49 GMT -5
I have the XMC-1 and the XPA-1 Gen2's setup playing, streaming from BluOs Node 2i, in reference mode. Speakers are klipschorns, 70 th anniversary, no subwoofer.
Sound is really sweet, clear and detailed, musical,... I like it a lot.
Using the McIntosh MA5300 as a preamp, did not yield better results, just similar.
So I am keeping the current setup: all Emotiva components, including the XPS-1 phono preamp.
Thanks for the advise Keith L. the combination Of XMC-1 refurb, 2 XPA-1-gen-2 & the XPS-1 is still 2k cheaper then the C-49 alone.
Merry Christmas all, ty for the inputs.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 25, 2019 20:38:48 GMT -5
My buddy has the Balance Audio Technology VK-33SE.
This preamp is clearly superior to XMC1. So if you are looking for something that’s next level over the XMC1 level, there are better preamps but it’s gonna cost you a bit.
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Post by pedrocols on Dec 25, 2019 21:37:45 GMT -5
My buddy has the Balance Audio Technology VK-33SE. This preamp is clearly superior to XMC1. So if you are looking for something that’s next level over the XMC1 level, there are better preamps but it’s gonna cost you a bit. I replaced a USP-1 with a BAT preamp a few years ago and in my application the BAT was far superior! The BAT cost a lot more around 5 times more. These days I use passive preamps. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 25, 2019 21:44:59 GMT -5
My buddy has the Balance Audio Technology VK-33SE. This preamp is clearly superior to XMC1. So if you are looking for something that’s next level over the XMC1 level, there are better preamps but it’s gonna cost you a bit. I replaced a USP-1 with a BAT preamp a few years ago and in my application the BAT was far superior! The BAT cost a lot more around 5 times more. These days I use passive preamps. Yes my buddy and I did a little a/b testing and we both concluded that his BAT was clearly superior but we were also pretty darn impressed with how good the XMC1 was considering that the VK33se is $10,000 retail. We said good job Emotiva! I may bring my XMC2 over to his house because I think the XMC2 is cleaner than the XMC1 but it’s a pain to do so 😎. |
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Post by lehighvalleyjeff on Dec 26, 2019 0:27:34 GMT -5
To add my personal experience to this, I spent months listening to amp after amp after amp. Price was not a factor. Without naming all the contestants I will simply say that the amp I purchased sounded the best to me on my system.
That amp was the McIntosh MC462.
System synergy is everything when matching A preamp to amp to speakers. The combination of how well those three things work together and compliment each other will determine your final sound quality. After buying that amp I went on a similar search high and low for the preamp that would bring out the best from that amp on my speakers. Again price was not a major consideration.
In sound quality paired with the McIntosh amp and my Legacy Whisper XDS speakers there was a clear winner.
That preamp was the McIntosh C2600.
My preamp has the same DAC as the c49 and it absolutely bested all other DACs I had in my system prior by a large margin. Sound quality and musical reproduction being my priority it was a pretty simple choice.
Your mileage will vary. Listen to the synergy of the components in your system before buying. Forget all the biases of what people say should or should not sound good. Use your ears to make that determination. You will be happy with your purchase afterwards!
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Post by pedrocols on Dec 26, 2019 10:38:38 GMT -5
Sometimes the best preamp is no preamp.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 26, 2019 12:53:12 GMT -5
To add my personal experience to this, I spent months listening to amp after amp after amp. Price was not a factor. Without naming all the contestants I will simply say that the amp I purchased sounded the best to me on my system. That amp was the McIntosh MC462. System synergy is everything when matching A preamp to amp to speakers. The combination of how well those three things work together and compliment each other will determine your final sound quality. After buying that amp I went on a similar search high and low for the preamp that would bring out the best from that amp on my speakers. Again price was not a major consideration. In sound quality paired with the McIntosh amp and my Legacy Whisper XDS speakers there was a clear winner. That preamp was the McIntosh C2600. My preamp has the same DAC as the c49 and it absolutely bested all other DACs I had in my system prior by a large margin. Sound quality and musical reproduction being my priority it was a pretty simple choice. Your mileage will vary. Listen to the synergy of the components in your system before buying. Forget all the biases of what people say should or should not sound good. Use your ears to make that determination. You will be happy with your purchase afterwards! I would say that if I had any one of the 3 components you had and swapped it with mine that my system would sound better.  Legacy Whisper XDS > Revel F208 McIntosh 462 > Emotiva XPR2 McIntosh C2600 > Emotiva XMC2 When someone builds their system, there should be some sort a balance with the speakers getting the most attention. So, for example a $5000 preamp would be silly if someone had a $500 pair of speakers. Also, it's hard to check for synergy for folks who buy internet direct vs. having an in home trial from dealers but yes totally agree that if possible, in home trial is ideal. |
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Post by lehighvalleyjeff on Dec 26, 2019 13:48:51 GMT -5
To add my personal experience to this, I spent months listening to amp after amp after amp. Price was not a factor. Without naming all the contestants I will simply say that the amp I purchased sounded the best to me on my system. That amp was the McIntosh MC462. System synergy is everything when matching A preamp to amp to speakers. The combination of how well those three things work together and compliment each other will determine your final sound quality. After buying that amp I went on a similar search high and low for the preamp that would bring out the best from that amp on my speakers. Again price was not a major consideration. In sound quality paired with the McIntosh amp and my Legacy Whisper XDS speakers there was a clear winner. That preamp was the McIntosh C2600. My preamp has the same DAC as the c49 and it absolutely bested all other DACs I had in my system prior by a large margin. Sound quality and musical reproduction being my priority it was a pretty simple choice. Your mileage will vary. Listen to the synergy of the components in your system before buying. Forget all the biases of what people say should or should not sound good. Use your ears to make that determination. You will be happy with your purchase afterwards! I would say that if I had any one of the 3 components you had and swapped it with mine that my system would sound better. Legacy Whisper XDS > Revel F208 McIntosh 462 > Emotiva XPR2 McIntosh C2600 > Emotiva XMC2 When someone builds their system, there should be some sort a balance with the speakers getting the most attention. So, for example a $5000 preamp would be silly if someone had a $500 pair of speakers. Also, it's hard to check for synergy for folks who buy internet direct vs. having an in home trial from dealers but yes totally agree that if possible, in home trial is ideal. Agreed. My dealer knows if I can’t try it in my system I won’t even consider the purchase because of that. |
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Post by audiobill on Dec 26, 2019 14:01:49 GMT -5
Agree totally. My lovely bride just presented me with an MC452 power amp, an MC2600 preamp, and TWO MC 275 power amps, all NIB, to drive my Maggie 3.6r and PBN Montana EPS speakers. All sounds and looks terrific. Seems she likes blue and green in our great room. Still have my CJ Premier 140s... bluemeanies |
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Post by lehighvalleyjeff on Dec 26, 2019 23:04:04 GMT -5
Agree totally. My lovely bride just presented me with an MC452 power amp, an MC2600 preamp, and TWO MC 275 power amps, all NIB, to drive my Maggie 3.6r and PBN Montana EPS speakers. All sounds and looks terrific. Seems she likes blue and green in our great room. Still have my CJ Premier 140s... bluemeaniesI’m not familiar with the current gen mc275s HOWEVER the C2600 and MC452 combo had me completely sold after all of 30 seconds at Audio Classics!!!! Synergy is everything and I hope you enjoy that synergy. I sure do and haven’t once regretted my decision |
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Post by bluemeanies on Jan 4, 2020 18:04:01 GMT -5
Agree totally. My lovely bride just presented me with an MC452 power amp, an MC2600 preamp, and TWO MC 275 power amps, all NIB, to drive my Maggie 3.6r and PBN Montana EPS speakers. All sounds and looks terrific. Seems she likes blue and green in our great room. Still have my CJ Premier 140s... bluemeaniesI’m not familiar with the current gen mc275s HOWEVER the C2600 and MC452 combo had me completely sold after all of 30 seconds at Audio Classics!!!! Synergy is everything and I hope you enjoy that synergy. I sure do and haven’t once regretted my decision |
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haha I'm not sure how you get Atmos from 5.2 but hey what do I know about Atmos anyways lol
