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Post by rbk123 on Feb 27, 2020 13:10:22 GMT -5
Guess you were just proven wrong about that. I take anything posted on ASR as both biased and inaccurate. Hardly. I guarantee you this won't solve Amir's issues and measurements. If/when he runs his tests again with that new firmware, he will simply go sideways and some of the same + more/different items will be announced as poorly designed, etc...
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hi
Minor Hero
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Post by hi on Feb 27, 2020 13:15:24 GMT -5
Thank you dan for the honest answer: After the ASR review i double checked the result (yes with low end gear) and got the same result as amir. The only answer i got, was something like: you got the same result because you used shitty equip, and you lie, and you are a troll etc. Everyone whos taken a speaker or amp etc. mesurement knows that you can achieve a lot with inexpensive equip. Especially for double checking a suspected issue. (like such a big one) The thing is: Discuss about issues should not be sacrilegious: we should speak open and honestly to help making a better product for everyone, and answers should also be on this way. Nonstop bashing and trolling helps no ones... Dan, can you give us a small overview, when which updates or dirac etc, can be expected? Michel Hi all, OK, we've been digging into this in order to see what was going on with the test anomalies shown on the ASR testing. Something was definitely going on and it had nothing to do with the circuit design or baseline performance of the RMC-1 and its offspring. This data shown below is via HDMI at 24/192k, two channels. The signal levels match the ones used by ASR. That is, 0dB - 4 volts RMS, nominal. Here is how we actually perform: So, what happened?? Ray dug into the test results and was finally able to duplicate the issue. It has nothing to do with the circuit design and everything to do with an incorrectly set register in the DSP. Once we cleared the error, this is the result. Please note that this had no effect on multichannel playback. We've added an additional two channel test procedure in the AP test during production to ensure that this will not sneak in again. Hopefully in the future, the collective 'we" can take a moment to fully understand what is happening before rushing to conclusions. In know it's not nearly as exciting as "catching" someone, but it's not very constructive. We respect and appreciate the service performed by ASR, but disagree with their approach. We believe that a more constructive path would be to contact the manufacturer when a gross error is discovered in order to allow a proper analysis and response. Sending an unsolicited email to us at 9:00 pm on Friday night and then saying you "gave us a chance to respond" is not cool. We have never had any prior contact or communication with ASR and Lonnie receives hundreds of emails a day. By the time he saw this, it was live. However, having said all of this, we appreciate the feedback and apologize for the error. We will have a firmware update (V1.9) that will correct this issue ASAP. We expect to realease beta code today. Thanks, Big Dan
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Post by urwi on Feb 27, 2020 13:30:45 GMT -5
You mean there's probably more wrong with the RMC than this teeny-tiny DSP register which somehow slipped through the 250 pages of industry standard testing and could only be identified by a quack's non-standard testing? I'm sure about that! Take a look at www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/emotiva-rmc-1-av-processor-review.11673/Hardly. I guarantee you this won't solve Amir's issues and measurements. If/when he runs his tests again with that new firmware, he will simply go sideways and some of the same + more/different items will be announced as poorly designed, etc...
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Post by thxultra on Feb 27, 2020 13:31:24 GMT -5
Guess you were just proven wrong about that. Hardly. I guarantee you this won't solve Amir's issues and measurements. If/when he runs his tests again with that new firmware, he will simply go sideways and some of the same + more/different items will be announced as poorly designed, etc... The RMC-1 still has a s/n under 95db the Monoprice is over 100db s/n. Amirm will probably bring this up when he does a retest. I asked about this as well since even the xmc-1 is a 98db s/n but got no response. I'm no engineer but I would expect the newer processor to test better then the old one.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Feb 27, 2020 13:33:13 GMT -5
Hardly. I guarantee you this won't solve Amir's issues and measurements. If/when he runs his tests again with that new firmware, he will simply go sideways and some of the same + more/different items will be announced as poorly designed, etc... The RMC-1 still has a s/n under 95db the Monoprice is over 100db s/n. Amirm will probably bring this up when he does a retest. I asked about this as well since even the xmc-1 is a 98db s/n but got no response. I'm no engineer but I would expect the newer processor to test better then the old one. Lonnie is not on here all the time. If you expect a quick response to your question, it may take awhile. Call them.
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LCSeminole
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Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,512
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Post by LCSeminole on Feb 27, 2020 13:34:34 GMT -5
I hope it stills sounds as good when the spec gets fixed... I'm going to the audiologist today to get my hearing specs so when I load the new firmware I'll have baseline measurements. If my home theater experience gets worse I'll have some decisions to make!
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 27, 2020 13:35:20 GMT -5
The RMC-1 still has a s/n under 95db the Monoprice is over 100db s/n. Amirm will probably bring this up when he does a retest. I asked about this as well since even the xmc-1 is a 98db s/n but got no response. I'm no engineer but I would expect the newer processor to test better then the old one. That's just the minimum. The real problem is Amir has stated XYZ is bad because of stage ABC being designed poorly. If the register clearing fixed everything, then it would mean that Amir was wrong in his electrical design wisdom. There's no way in hell he's going to admit that. So this change will improve one or a few things but the unit will still have mega problems that Emo needed to consult him on during the design changes.
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 27, 2020 13:39:02 GMT -5
You mean there's probably more wrong with the RMC than this teeny-tiny DSP register which somehow slipped through the 250 pages of industry standard testing and could only be identified by a quack's non-standard testing? I'm sure about that! Take a look at www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/emotiva-rmc-1-av-processor-review.11673/Hardly. I guarantee you this won't solve Amir's issues and measurements. If/when he runs his tests again with that new firmware, he will simply go sideways and some of the same + more/different items will be announced as poorly designed, etc... Right on cue and I rest my case.
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Post by thxultra on Feb 27, 2020 13:41:03 GMT -5
The RMC-1 still has a s/n under 95db the Monoprice is over 100db s/n. Amirm will probably bring this up when he does a retest. I asked about this as well since even the xmc-1 is a 98db s/n but got no response. I'm no engineer but I would expect the newer processor to test better then the old one. Lonnie is not on here all the time. If you expect a quick response to your question, it may take awhile. Call them. I actually asked Dan and he answered questions after mine... Side note is I wonder if I will hear any changes or if this will correct any other issues... loud buzz etc... So far haven't had the loud buzz with 1.8 but doesn't happen too often so not sure if that is fixed or not yet.
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Lonnie
Emo Staff
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Post by Lonnie on Feb 27, 2020 13:44:55 GMT -5
Thank you dan for the honest answer: After the ASR review i double checked the result (yes with low end gear) and got the same result as amir. The only answer i got, was something like: you got the same result because you used shitty equip, and you lie, and you are a troll etc. Everyone whos taken a speaker or amp etc. mesurement knows that you can achieve a lot with inexpensive equip. Especially for double checking a suspected issue. (like such a big one) The thing is: Discuss about issues should not be sacrilegious: we should speak open and honestly to help making a better product for everyone, and answers should also be on this way. Nonstop bashing and trolling helps no ones... Dan, can you give us a small overview, when which updates or dirac etc, can be expected? Michel Hi all, OK, we've been digging into this in order to see what was going on with the test anomalies shown on the ASR testing. Something was definitely going on and it had nothing to do with the circuit design or baseline performance of the RMC-1 and its offspring. This data shown below is via HDMI at 24/192k, two channels. The signal levels match the ones used by ASR. That is, 0dB - 4 volts RMS, nominal. Here is how we actually perform: So, what happened?? Ray dug into the test results and was finally able to duplicate the issue. It has nothing to do with the circuit design and everything to do with an incorrectly set register in the DSP. Once we cleared the error, this is the result. Please note that this had no effect on multichannel playback. We've added an additional two channel test procedure in the AP test during production to ensure that this will not sneak in again. Hopefully in the future, the collective 'we" can take a moment to fully understand what is happening before rushing to conclusions. In know it's not nearly as exciting as "catching" someone, but it's not very constructive. We respect and appreciate the service performed by ASR, but disagree with their approach. We believe that a more constructive path would be to contact the manufacturer when a gross error is discovered in order to allow a proper analysis and response. Sending an unsolicited email to us at 9:00 pm on Friday night and then saying you "gave us a chance to respond" is not cool. We have never had any prior contact or communication with ASR and Lonnie receives hundreds of emails a day. By the time he saw this, it was live. However, having said all of this, we appreciate the feedback and apologize for the error. We will have a firmware update (V1.9) that will correct this issue ASAP. We expect to realease beta code today. Thanks, Big Dan I know you addressed this to Dan but I hoe you mind if I jump in here. I saw your post but I didn't comment because I didn't have anything to say. That is I could neither confirm or deny the results. We weren't able to recreate it until Tuesday evening and Wednesday we dug into the why. We knew it wasn't part of the hardware design because it doesn't show up in multi-channel operation, only two channel. So after doing some digging we found that the Dolby up mixer was causing the problem. Now we don't know why the up mixer is doing it because this is black box territory. We have no visibility to what Dolby is doing. All we can do is set bit registers to change modes. In this case it is set to bypass but obviously its still doing something. So we put in a bit of code to switch it off all together and the problem went away. That brings us to today. I don't believe anyone from here made any comments about your post and we do try to be as open as possible once we know for sure there is an issue. Lonnie
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Feb 27, 2020 13:47:55 GMT -5
You mean there's probably more wrong with the RMC than this teeny-tiny DSP register which somehow slipped through the 250 pages of industry standard testing and could only be identified by a quack's non-standard testing? I'm sure about that! Take a look at www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/emotiva-rmc-1-av-processor-review.11673/Hardly. I guarantee you this won't solve Amir's issues and measurements. If/when he runs his tests again with that new firmware, he will simply go sideways and some of the same + more/different items will be announced as poorly designed, etc... I think I might need to remind you that you are a guest on our forum. Be nice. Lonnie
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Post by Dan Laufman on Feb 27, 2020 13:48:23 GMT -5
Hardly. I guarantee you this won't solve Amir's issues and measurements. If/when he runs his tests again with that new firmware, he will simply go sideways and some of the same + more/different items will be announced as poorly designed, etc... The RMC-1 still has a s/n under 95db the Monoprice is over 100db s/n. Amirm will probably bring this up when he does a retest. I asked about this as well since even the xmc-1 is a 98db s/n but got no response. I'm no engineer but I would expect the newer processor to test better then the old one. The actual signal to noise radio of the RMC-1 is around -119 dB. The test SINAD test is not a standard signal to noise test! The SINAD test measures THD + Noise. Not the same thing as signal to noise.
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Lonnie
Emo Staff
admin
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Post by Lonnie on Feb 27, 2020 13:50:07 GMT -5
Hardly. I guarantee you this won't solve Amir's issues and measurements. If/when he runs his tests again with that new firmware, he will simply go sideways and some of the same + more/different items will be announced as poorly designed, etc... The RMC-1 still has a s/n under 95db the Monoprice is over 100db s/n. Amirm will probably bring this up when he does a retest. I asked about this as well since even the xmc-1 is a 98db s/n but got no response. I'm no engineer but I would expect the newer processor to test better then the old one. I can't comment on that because when we test it, it's way better then what he is showing. You can see this in the graphs we posted. Lonnie
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Post by thxultra on Feb 27, 2020 13:54:05 GMT -5
The RMC-1 still has a s/n under 95db the Monoprice is over 100db s/n. Amirm will probably bring this up when he does a retest. I asked about this as well since even the xmc-1 is a 98db s/n but got no response. I'm no engineer but I would expect the newer processor to test better then the old one. The actual signal to noise radio of the RMC-1 is around -119 dB. The test SINAD test is not a standard signal to noise test! The SINAD test measures THD + Noise. Not the same thing as signal to noise. Thanks for explaining this was what I was looking for.
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Post by dj7675 on Feb 27, 2020 13:55:11 GMT -5
Happy there is a resolution. As a potential customer, disappointed in how the response to the review both from owners and Emotiva since it was released. .. -Review must be wrong -Reviewer is doesn't know what he is doing -Reviewer doesn't use standard tests and measurements -HT Processors shouldn't be compared to DACs -Everyone says it sounds great and measurements don't matter -If you don't like it don't buy it, go away -A test was run showing 98 Sinad... with .5v instead of 4v or at least a typical 1.5 or 2v to run Emotiva amps. -An error was found in the register in DSP, tests were then able to run and show a Sinad of 95 with 4V
Instead it would have been so much better.... -The results do not match the capability of the prouduct. -Run same test at 4V to duplicate the test results. -Research and find the fix -Announce fix and thank Amir for finding the flaw that had a very negative impact on noise and distortion.
Blaming the reviewer for the error found, saying measurements don't matter, it sounds great, calling prospective customers trolls should never happen in my opinion and just looks bad.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Feb 27, 2020 13:58:37 GMT -5
Guess you were just proven wrong about that. I take anything posted on ASR as both biased and inaccurate. Which does not change my opinion about them.
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Post by garbulky on Feb 27, 2020 14:00:56 GMT -5
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Post by alexreusch on Feb 27, 2020 14:08:50 GMT -5
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Feb 27, 2020 14:10:25 GMT -5
Happy there is a resolution. As a potential customer, disappointed in how the response to the review both from owners and Emotiva since it was released. .. -Review must be wrong -Reviewer is doesn't know what he is doing -Reviewer doesn't use standard tests and measurements -HT Processors shouldn't be compared to DACs -Everyone says it sounds great and measurements don't matter -If you don't like it don't buy it, go away -A test was run showing 98 Sinad... with .5v instead of 4v or at least a typical 1.5 or 2v to run Emotiva amps. -An error was found in the register in DSP, tests were then able to run and show a Sinad of 95 with 4V Instead it would have been so much better.... -The results do not match the capability of the prouduct. -Run same test at 4V to duplicate the test results. -Research and find the fix -Announce fix and thank Amir for finding the flaw that had a very negative impact on noise and distortion. Blaming the reviewer for the error found, saying measurements don't matter, it sounds great, calling prospective customers trolls should never happen in my opinion and just looks bad. Blame can be had by all. However I find it very odd that ASR did not give Emotiva any time to address the issue before people created accounts on their forum to call them out and basically state that their processors had major problems. Why was that done? Very underhanded in my view. If this had been handled as it should have been, off of an owner's forum, it most likely would have been much more civil. The folks at Emotiva are good people. I've met them in person at Emofest and audio shows and there is no way they would intentionally defraud anyone. They love what they do. My .02.
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richb
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Posts: 860
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Post by richb on Feb 27, 2020 14:19:00 GMT -5
If 2.7 volts is a thing, then perhaps Amir should measure the RMC-1, after the fix at this voltage as well. - Rich
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