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Post by steelman1991 on Apr 8, 2020 4:21:04 GMT -5
I'm finding some interesting details on all this depending on how you have your heights configured and your channel count. I need more research and to test some more this week before I say much more. I think this have been discussed on other sites. DTS:X movies are more geared to use front/rear heights than atmos top front/heights. Even though the front/rear heights of DTS is in the same ”place” as atmos top front/rear. This causes DTS:X movies to sound worse in a atmos speaker configuration. What I have read is that this is up to each prepro/avr maker to setup internally. Don’t know if Emotiva has done any of these fixes regarding DTS:X, but I doubt it. It would be best to have separate speaker configuration optimized to each format. This way the angles (azimuth) would be perfectly correct regarding your speaker placement. I can't say that has been my experience of DTS:X encoded movie soundtracks. None that I have played have been compromised in any way, given that my set-up is more Atoms centric. In fact I would suggest that the ones I have listened to are wonderfully immersive, and definitely on a par with the best Atmos tracks. Try the Harry Potter series, or some of the Fast & Furious franchise. There are volume problems with Neural:X (god it's so weak - thankfully I don't use it or DSU), and one which @keithl continually manages to expertly avoid commenting on , but with DTS:X I hear no issues in movie material.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 8, 2020 8:29:18 GMT -5
I think this have been discussed on other sites. DTS:X movies are more geared to use front/rear heights than atmos top front/heights. Even though the front/rear heights of DTS is in the same ”place” as atmos top front/rear. This causes DTS:X movies to sound worse in a atmos speaker configuration. What I have read is that this is up to each prepro/avr maker to setup internally. Don’t know if Emotiva has done any of these fixes regarding DTS:X, but I doubt it. It would be best to have separate speaker configuration optimized to each format. This way the angles (azimuth) would be perfectly correct regarding your speaker placement. I can't say that has been my experience of DTS:X encoded movie soundtracks. None that I have played have been compromised in any way, given that my set-up is more Atoms centric. In fact I would suggest that the ones I have listened to are wonderfully immersive, and definitely on a par with the best Atmos tracks. Try the Harry Potter series, or some of the Fast & Furious franchise. There are volume problems with Neural:X (god it's so weak - thankfully I don't use it or DSU), and one which @keithl continually manages to expertly avoid commenting on , but with DTS:X I hear no issues in movie material. Thanks for the morning laugh. 😂😂😂 Remind us what setting you have again for your heights please sir. I think we need a poll of how everyone has their heights configured. My guess is the ones, including me, who complain about odd behavior have a different configuration than those, like you, who are happy.
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Post by steelman1991 on Apr 8, 2020 9:54:08 GMT -5
I can't say that has been my experience of DTS:X encoded movie soundtracks. None that I have played have been compromised in any way, given that my set-up is more Atoms centric. In fact I would suggest that the ones I have listened to are wonderfully immersive, and definitely on a par with the best Atmos tracks. Try the Harry Potter series, or some of the Fast & Furious franchise. There are volume problems with Neural:X (god it's so weak - thankfully I don't use it or DSU), and one which @keithl continually manages to expertly avoid commenting on , but with DTS:X I hear no issues in movie material. Thanks for the morning laugh. 😂😂😂 Remind us what setting you have again for your heights please sir. I think we need a poll of how everyone has their heights configured. My guess is the ones, including me, who complain about odd behavior have a different configuration than those, like you, who are happy. Sure thing my friend - Front and Rear Heights
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Post by Mikomill on Apr 8, 2020 17:38:56 GMT -5
I can't say that has been my experience of DTS:X encoded movie soundtracks. None that I have played have been compromised in any way, given that my set-up is more Atoms centric. In fact I would suggest that the ones I have listened to are wonderfully immersive, and definitely on a par with the best Atmos tracks. Try the Harry Potter series, or some of the Fast & Furious franchise. There are volume problems with Neural:X (god it's so weak - thankfully I don't use it or DSU), and one which @keithl continually manages to expertly avoid commenting on , but with DTS:X I hear no issues in movie material. Thanks for the morning laugh. 😂😂😂 Remind us what setting you have again for your heights please sir. I think we need a poll of how everyone has their heights configured. My guess is the ones, including me, who complain about odd behavior have a different configuration than those, like you, who are happy. Can you help me out and explain what the “morning laugh” part of his post was?
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Post by megash0n on Apr 8, 2020 17:50:52 GMT -5
I haven't had any time to be more scientific with my testing due to work, but I do have news to report. As others have commented here, and other sites have years of this kind of stuff, it appears that height config has a major impact on what DTS:X does. All the channel mapping issues, or "bleeding" were a result in DTS not playing as nice with "Dolby enabled heights" or "tops". I followed the recommendation of a few sites to configure my heights as front and rear heights instead of the way I have it. I moved my fronts from being on top of my T1s to being mounted on the wall and changed my configuration/reset my levels. Now the DTS:X channel call out demo played "discretely" to each channel. There is still a pretty noticeable difference in volume between Atmos and DTS:X, but I can use the volume knob.
My thoughts: Atmos actually sounds a lot better. The John Wick 3 Atmos track that was unbearable now sounds "good". It sounds as it is probably supposed to. Very different than before. I still think it is a little sharp at times, but that is probably the intent. DTS:X is still disappointing but better enough to tolerate. It does sound like everything is where it is supposed to be. I feel as if the "immersion" is a little more in your face than the dialogue. With a stronger dialogue, this would probably sound great. Lastly, according to DTS, we are supposed to have the ability to "turn up" dialogue if needed. Hopefully Emotiva will implement this functionality for us. All in all, I think once Dirac hits, and with a proper channel configuration, this should all sound pretty stellar. I would ask that Emotiva update their documentation to include some verbiage around how and why you should configure heights a certain way. When I called for advice, it was recommended I use Dolby Enabled Heights. I think this topic needs more attention in the future because it apparently matters quite a lot. Thanks to all for your help and advice on this.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 8, 2020 20:14:50 GMT -5
Thanks for the morning laugh. 😂😂😂 Remind us what setting you have again for your heights please sir. I think we need a poll of how everyone has their heights configured. My guess is the ones, including me, who complain about odd behavior have a different configuration than those, like you, who are happy. Can you help me out and explain what the “morning laugh” part of his post was? I can tell you there are far more important parts of the post to concentrate on for sure. 😉 hugs.
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Post by hsamwel on Apr 8, 2020 20:22:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the morning laugh. 😂😂😂 Remind us what setting you have again for your heights please sir. I think we need a poll of how everyone has their heights configured. My guess is the ones, including me, who complain about odd behavior have a different configuration than those, like you, who are happy. Sure thing my friend - Front and Rear Heights That explains the good DTS:X sound. Most things I’ve read about this says front/rear heights is the optimal settings for DTS:X. It’s a name thingy. It’s called front/rear height in DTS, but are placed in top front/rear position witch causes the azimuth to be wrong. If you use top front/rear it causes DTS:X movies to have quieter height effects. How Emotiva has handled DTS:X azimuths internally I don’t know. My guess is they have it set for Atmos and DTS:X gets what it gets. Btw the morning laugh is the Keith comment I would guess.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 8, 2020 20:29:38 GMT -5
Sure thing my friend - Front and Rear Heights That explains the good DTS:X sound. Most things I’ve read about this says front/rear heights is the optimal settings for DTS:X. It’s a name thingy. It’s called front/rear height in DTS, but are placed in top front/rear position witch causes the azimuth to be wrong. If you use top front/rear it causes DTS:X movies to have quieter height effects. How Emotiva has handled DTS:X azimuths internally I don’t know. My guess is they have it set for Atmos and DTS:X gets what it gets. Btw the morning laugh is the Keith comment I would guess. I had my front heights set to Dolby Enabled and on top of my T1s. This really sounded pretty bad and made DTS:X unbearable. It sounds alright now and Atmos sounds much better. I'd say there is room for improvement on the DTS side. Good thing there isn't much content out. The DTS up mixer hopefully will get a little attention soon.
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Post by hsamwel on Apr 8, 2020 21:03:46 GMT -5
I haven't had any time to be more scientific with my testing due to work, but I do have news to report. As others have commented here, and other sites have years of this kind of stuff, it appears that height config has a major impact on what DTS:X does. All the channel mapping issues, or "bleeding" were a result in DTS not playing as nice with "Dolby enabled heights" or "tops". I followed the recommendation of a few sites to configure my heights as front and rear heights instead of the way I have it. I moved my fronts from being on top of my T1s to being mounted on the wall and changed my configuration/reset my levels. Now the DTS:X channel call out demo played "discretely" to each channel. There is still a pretty noticeable difference in volume between Atmos and DTS:X, but I can use the volume knob. My thoughts: Atmos actually sounds a lot better. The John Wick 3 Atmos track that was unbearable now sounds "good". It sounds as it is probably supposed to. Very different than before. I still think it is a little sharp at times, but that is probably the intent. DTS:X is still disappointing but better enough to tolerate. It does sound like everything is where it is supposed to be. I feel as if the "immersion" is a little more in your face than the dialogue. With a stronger dialogue, this would probably sound great. Lastly, according to DTS, we are supposed to have the ability to "turn up" dialogue if needed. Hopefully Emotiva will implement this functionality for us. All in all, I think once Dirac hits, and with a proper channel configuration, this should all sound pretty stellar. I would ask that Emotiva update their documentation to include some verbiage around how and why you should configure heights a certain way. When I called for advice, it was recommended I use Dolby Enabled Heights. I think this topic needs more attention in the future because it apparently matters quite a lot. Thanks to all for your help and advice on this. Dialog control in DTS:X needs to have the source in objects format and dialog placed in its own object. I would guess 99% of the DTS:X movies out there does not use objects. Most are ”hardcoded” to 7.1.4. It would be nice if Emotiva allowed for more dolby and dts settings. I think there are center spread for dolby surround as well. Others have dialog level, lift and whatever but I guess those are ”self made” options.
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Post by hsamwel on Apr 8, 2020 21:22:54 GMT -5
I haven't had any time to be more scientific with my testing due to work, but I do have news to report. As others have commented here, and other sites have years of this kind of stuff, it appears that height config has a major impact on what DTS:X does. All the channel mapping issues, or "bleeding" were a result in DTS not playing as nice with "Dolby enabled heights" or "tops". I followed the recommendation of a few sites to configure my heights as front and rear heights instead of the way I have it. I moved my fronts from being on top of my T1s to being mounted on the wall and changed my configuration/reset my levels. Now the DTS:X channel call out demo played "discretely" to each channel. There is still a pretty noticeable difference in volume between Atmos and DTS:X, but I can use the volume knob. My thoughts: Atmos actually sounds a lot better. The John Wick 3 Atmos track that was unbearable now sounds "good". It sounds as it is probably supposed to. Very different than before. I still think it is a little sharp at times, but that is probably the intent. DTS:X is still disappointing but better enough to tolerate. It does sound like everything is where it is supposed to be. I feel as if the "immersion" is a little more in your face than the dialogue. With a stronger dialogue, this would probably sound great. Lastly, according to DTS, we are supposed to have the ability to "turn up" dialogue if needed. Hopefully Emotiva will implement this functionality for us. All in all, I think once Dirac hits, and with a proper channel configuration, this should all sound pretty stellar. I would ask that Emotiva update their documentation to include some verbiage around how and why you should configure heights a certain way. When I called for advice, it was recommended I use Dolby Enabled Heights. I think this topic needs more attention in the future because it apparently matters quite a lot. Thanks to all for your help and advice on this. Dolby enabled is the upfiring speaker setup. Should these even be available for DTS:X playback? If you have your speakers high on the front wall (or even on the ceiling) above the front L/R speakers they should be called front heights. If they are placed on the ceiling about 40-50 degrees in front of your MLP they should be top fronts. Dolby enabled are the crappy things you place on front l/r and surrounds speakers firing upwards and are supposedly made to mimic real height speakers by bouncing the sound to the MLP.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 8, 2020 21:26:35 GMT -5
I haven't had any time to be more scientific with my testing due to work, but I do have news to report. As others have commented here, and other sites have years of this kind of stuff, it appears that height config has a major impact on what DTS:X does. All the channel mapping issues, or "bleeding" were a result in DTS not playing as nice with "Dolby enabled heights" or "tops". I followed the recommendation of a few sites to configure my heights as front and rear heights instead of the way I have it. I moved my fronts from being on top of my T1s to being mounted on the wall and changed my configuration/reset my levels. Now the DTS:X channel call out demo played "discretely" to each channel. There is still a pretty noticeable difference in volume between Atmos and DTS:X, but I can use the volume knob. My thoughts: Atmos actually sounds a lot better. The John Wick 3 Atmos track that was unbearable now sounds "good". It sounds as it is probably supposed to. Very different than before. I still think it is a little sharp at times, but that is probably the intent. DTS:X is still disappointing but better enough to tolerate. It does sound like everything is where it is supposed to be. I feel as if the "immersion" is a little more in your face than the dialogue. With a stronger dialogue, this would probably sound great. Lastly, according to DTS, we are supposed to have the ability to "turn up" dialogue if needed. Hopefully Emotiva will implement this functionality for us. All in all, I think once Dirac hits, and with a proper channel configuration, this should all sound pretty stellar. I would ask that Emotiva update their documentation to include some verbiage around how and why you should configure heights a certain way. When I called for advice, it was recommended I use Dolby Enabled Heights. I think this topic needs more attention in the future because it apparently matters quite a lot. Thanks to all for your help and advice on this. Dolby enabled is the upfiring speaker setup. Should these even be available for DTS:X playback? If you have your speakers high on the front wall (or even on the ceiling) above the front L/R speakers they should be called front heights. If they are placed on the ceiling about 40-50 degrees in front of your MLP they should be top fronts. Dolby enabled are the crappy things you place on front l/r and surrounds speakers firing upwards and are supposedly made to mimic real height speakers by bouncing the sound to the MLP. Yeah, I had my A1s on top of my T1s and set to Dolby Enabled until today. Now, they are high on the wall and set as front heights. They definitely sound better now.
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Post by steelman1991 on Apr 9, 2020 5:49:41 GMT -5
Sure thing my friend - Front and Rear Heights That explains the good DTS:X sound. Most things I’ve read about this says front/rear heights is the optimal settings for DTS:X. It’s a name thingy. It’s called front/rear height in DTS, but are placed in top front/rear position witch causes the azimuth to be wrong. If you use top front/rear it causes DTS:X movies to have quieter height effects. How Emotiva has handled DTS:X azimuths internally I don’t know. My guess is they have it set for Atmos and DTS:X gets what it gets. Btw the morning laugh is the Keith comment I would guess. Just a correction on my last post: I wrongly identified that my speakers were set-up as "front and rear heights" - I was taking their location and nomenclature from the picture of the back panel of the processor in the manual. However this morning I checked the allocation in the set-up menu and they are set to "Top Front Right/Left and Top Rear Right/Left". Which is the Dolby Atmos naming and position protocol. Here's a quote from the DTS thread at AVS Forum which explains the relationship between the 2 formats and how sound is allocated in the absence of a specific designation command from the software. Hope this helps
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Post by Mikomill on Apr 9, 2020 9:54:48 GMT -5
Can you help me out and explain what the “morning laugh” part of his post was? I can tell you there are far more important parts of the post to concentrate on for sure. 😉 hugs. like the fact that the "issue" you're having is because you set up your processor wrong? Or is it the fact that you didn't know how to use the volume button until recently? hugs.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 9, 2020 11:15:41 GMT -5
That explains the good DTS:X sound. Most things I’ve read about this says front/rear heights is the optimal settings for DTS:X. It’s a name thingy. It’s called front/rear height in DTS, but are placed in top front/rear position witch causes the azimuth to be wrong. If you use top front/rear it causes DTS:X movies to have quieter height effects. How Emotiva has handled DTS:X azimuths internally I don’t know. My guess is they have it set for Atmos and DTS:X gets what it gets. Btw the morning laugh is the Keith comment I would guess. Just a correction on my last post: I wrongly identified that my speakers were set-up as "front and rear heights" - I was taking their location and nomenclature from the picture of the back panel of the processor in the manual. However this morning I checked the allocation in the set-up menu and they are set to "Top Front Right/Left and Top Rear Right/Left". Which is the Dolby Atmos naming and position protocol. Here's a quote from the DTS thread at AVS Forum which explains the relationship between the 2 formats and how sound is allocated in the absence of a specific designation command from the software. Hope this helps Thanks for including that info. Ive been a bit lazy this week providing more detail. 😄
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Post by megash0n on Apr 9, 2020 11:23:22 GMT -5
I can tell you there are far more important parts of the post to concentrate on for sure. 😉 hugs. like the fact that the "issue" you're having is because you set up your processor wrong? Or is it the fact that you didn't know how to use the volume button until recently? hugs. For clarification, I set my processor up how I was advised in person, and over the phone from Emotiva employees. I have zero experience with immersive formats until purchasing this processor in January. I've only began reading more about them because I'm finding out they are much more complicated than the other codecs. Some additional context around this configuration in the manual would be quite useful. Your comment on the volume button really doesn't make much sense. It is a pretty narrow-minded comment if you are serious.
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Post by Mikomill on Apr 9, 2020 12:41:33 GMT -5
like the fact that the "issue" you're having is because you set up your processor wrong? Or is it the fact that you didn't know how to use the volume button until recently? hugs. For clarification, I set my processor up how I was advised in person, and over the phone from Emotiva employees. I have zero experience with immersive formats until purchasing this processor in January. I've only began reading more about them because I'm finding out they are much more complicated than the other codecs. Some additional context around this configuration in the manual would be quite useful. Your comment on the volume button really doesn't make much sense. It is a pretty narrow-minded comment if you are serious. Just because you don't understand it doesnt mean its narrow minded.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 9, 2020 13:05:14 GMT -5
For clarification, I set my processor up how I was advised in person, and over the phone from Emotiva employees. I have zero experience with immersive formats until purchasing this processor in January. I've only began reading more about them because I'm finding out they are much more complicated than the other codecs. Some additional context around this configuration in the manual would be quite useful. Your comment on the volume button really doesn't make much sense. It is a pretty narrow-minded comment if you are serious. Just because you don't understand it doesnt mean its narrow minded. is there a reason you are insisting we have conflict? I understand that you are ok spending the first 10 mins of every movie sorting out trims and overall volume. I am not. We can agree to disagree on this one. It will be ok and the Earth will continue to spin.
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Post by Mikomill on Apr 10, 2020 12:20:33 GMT -5
Just because you don't understand it doesnt mean its narrow minded. is there a reason you are insisting we have conflict? I understand that you are ok spending the first 10 mins of every movie sorting out trims and overall volume. I am not. We can agree to disagree on this one. It will be ok and the Earth will continue to spin. No conflict. i'm just responding to your arrogant condescending comments. I understand that your ok spending hours and hours worrying about something that can be resolved by spending 20 seconds adjusting trims and the volume control. We CAN agree to disagree on this one. It will be ok and the Earth will continue to spin.
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Post by megash0n on Apr 10, 2020 12:41:07 GMT -5
is there a reason you are insisting we have conflict? I understand that you are ok spending the first 10 mins of every movie sorting out trims and overall volume. I am not. We can agree to disagree on this one. It will be ok and the Earth will continue to spin. No conflict. i'm just responding to your arrogant condescending comments. I understand that your ok spending hours and hours worrying about something that can be resolved by spending 20 seconds adjusting trims and the volume control. We CAN agree to disagree on this one. It will be ok and the Earth will continue to spin. Cool. I'm glad we have alignment. Be well!
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Post by hsamwel on Apr 11, 2020 5:50:21 GMT -5
C’mon guys.. This just a hobby. No need for this just because you have different opinions.
There’s no problem in just increasing the volume. It’s just an inconvinience. But if there’s something wrong with the sound we would all benefit from having it fixed.
Regarding Atmos vs DTS:X it is a problem for DTS:X sound tracks if not speaker setup is handled properly by RMC. As I have seen by speaker placement pictures amd desciptions from Dolby and DTS front/rear height as in Dolby setup is not used by DTS. But the top front/rear is called front/rear height by DTS. If Emotiva hasn’t changed the azimuth internally for DTS the sound will be wrong, as quoted by Steelman.
Also the +10db lower volume in Neural:X is something Emotiva should check out. Other AVRs or processors do not have this hugh difference in volume. Could be a simple fix with gain or an issue that needs fixing. Either way it would be good if it was checked.
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