KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 22, 2024 1:44:13 GMT -5
I agree... that you would have to give up some of the benefits claimed for DLBC. HOWEVER, unless all of the channels are being handled by the miniDSP, this limitation would apply to using ANY miniDSP box to handle ONLY your subs. In other words, if miniDSP comes out with a box that runs DLBC, unless it also manages ALL of your speakers, this limitation would apply to it.
The ONLY ways I can imagine to overcome this limitation would be: 1. To have a miniDSP box with built-in decoders and HDMI inputs that totally replaced your processor. 2. To have a miniDSP with enough inputs for ALL of your channels... and feed ALL of the channels from the processor through it (presumably in analog). 3. To have DLBC running on BOTH the miniDSP AND the processor, licensed on both, and have the Dirac software on the computer be able to "coordinate" the two. (This would actually not be impossible, but would require a lot of programming on the part of Dirac, and multiple licenses for the user, and I haven't heard any plans to offer it.)
The only remaining question would be of how important you believe that having DLBC coordinate between more than three subs would be... As compared to also having it somehow coordinate between your subs and other speakers (better than Dirac Live already does that)... And whether you would consider it worthwhile to get the one without the other. And, as far as I know (and we're assuming), miniDSP IS going to have a unit that can run four subs, and that can support DLBC as well, available before then. This is a statement from miniDSP that I've posted elsewhere, but applies here. " DLBC will align that main speaker pair in the crossover region for all subs. In other words, you can get clarification on the most typical question we get: Why don't you get us a MultiSUB processor with DLBC for subs only?... It's simply not possible as it would require all your other speakers to be processed by Dirac." Whatever miniDSP is releasing soon will be outputting signals for subwoofers and speakers with the crossovers being handled inside the miniDSP box by DLBC.
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,987
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Post by KeithL on Feb 22, 2024 1:57:17 GMT -5
I agree with what you said here (see my other post). I'm just not thoroughly convinced how important that difference actually is...
Dirac Live already "handles all of your speakers"... To me that suggests that what we're talking about here is an incremental improvement... And I have no idea how big an improvement we're talking about... or how many users it will apply to...
And, yes, I also would be happier if we could all find out the answer to that a bit sooner.
I do have one "editorial comment" on the "phase correction thing".
An electrical signal, like the audio signal for each channel, only has one set of phase and amplitude characteristics. Therefore, assuming that the signal going to each speaker was "perfect" to begin with, then there would be no possible way to improve it. And remember that this is what Dirac Live is intended to do to begin with.
What DLBC does is to "better optimize the various channels to work together better"....
So, to use an analogy to your finances... It's going to "optimize your income and expenses so as to hopefully better achieve your financial goals"... And, in many cases, this may be a useful improvement...
But it is NOT going to "increase your income or actually make the dollars you spend for specific items stretch any further".
There's a lot in what you say that makes sense except for a HUGE thing: DLBC does not ONLY apply to the subs. This is huge. DLBC does phase correction between pairs of speakers and between them and the subs. DLBC handles the crossovers for small speakers. You can't do Dirac Live in the processor for the small speakers and DLBC in an outboard miniDSP fed by a single output from the processor and running four subs. It would do "something" but a significant part of the benefit of DLBC would be impossible. DLBC has to work with ALL of the speakers in the same box. It can't work like an outboard miniDSP. Sorry I think I just said the same thing three times ... but, like ... it's THAT big a deal.
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Post by marcl on Feb 22, 2024 6:38:27 GMT -5
I agree with what you said here (see my other post). I'm just not thoroughly convinced how important that difference actually is...
Dirac Live already "handles all of your speakers"... To me that suggests that what we're talking about here is an incremental improvement... And I have no idea how big an improvement we're talking about... or how many users it will apply to...
And, yes, I also would be happier if we could all find out the answer to that a bit sooner.
I do have one "editorial comment" on the "phase correction thing".
An electrical signal, like the audio signal for each channel, only has one set of phase and amplitude characteristics. Therefore, assuming that the signal going to each speaker was "perfect" to begin with, then there would be no possible way to improve it. And remember that this is what Dirac Live is intended to do to begin with.
What DLBC does is to "better optimize the various channels to work together better"....
So, to use an analogy to your finances... It's going to "optimize your income and expenses so as to hopefully better achieve your financial goals"... And, in many cases, this may be a useful improvement...
But it is NOT going to "increase your income or actually make the dollars you spend for specific items stretch any further".
There's a lot in what you say that makes sense except for a HUGE thing: DLBC does not ONLY apply to the subs. This is huge. DLBC does phase correction between pairs of speakers and between them and the subs. DLBC handles the crossovers for small speakers. You can't do Dirac Live in the processor for the small speakers and DLBC in an outboard miniDSP fed by a single output from the processor and running four subs. It would do "something" but a significant part of the benefit of DLBC would be impossible. DLBC has to work with ALL of the speakers in the same box. It can't work like an outboard miniDSP. Sorry I think I just said the same thing three times ... but, like ... it's THAT big a deal. I think I know the difference between what DL does now with speakers, and what happens additionally with DLBC. I think. In DL they do impulse response correction per speaker. They talk about correcting the impulse response to align all frequencies to be coincident at your listening position. The examples they give shows ringing in the before image, and a much more clean spike with less ringing in the after picture. They align the peaks of the impulses - time alignment, like distance alignment. They don't do any specific additional alignment of multiple subs to each other - in fact this lack of correction of all subs as a coordinated unit is one problem they seek to solve with DLBC. They don't do any other alignment of subs to the other speakers. We know that for Bass Management to work at its best, phase-wise we want the "engine of the trailing train attached to the caboose of the train ahead" ... with phase varying with frequency, we want the phase of the sub and the phase of the small speaker to be aligned at the crossover point. This is where DLBC does something additional, and involving all speakers. They talk about aligning pairs of speakers to each other ... and they talk about aligning to the holistically managed subs at the crossover point. You select the crossover point in DLBC and then there is some additional processing that happens. And in the last video discussion with Johansson (shared in various threads recently) he talks about how Bass Management is handled by Dirac Live Bass Management, and then Dirac Live Bass Control does what I described above. So ... DL corrects speakers as separate entities; DLBC corrects subs holistically, speakers in pairs, and then speakers to subs. DLBM performs Bass Management. How much difference does it make? I guess we'd have to read the other DLBC-specific forums to see measurements and hear the opinions of users.
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Post by marcl on Feb 22, 2024 6:56:27 GMT -5
Reposting this here just for continuity with the conversation. Then we should jump this conversation to the G4 or Dirac threads.
Listen to what he says about DLBC AND DLBM.
Notes: Start at 5:55 ..."Dirac Live corrects speakers individually" ... 9:48 with DLBC does "not doing any peaks or dips ... just using all-pass filters ... just adjusting phase at different frequencies" ... 10:30 optimizing subwoofers of different models ... in Denon/Marantz implementation DLBC does all the Bass Management; all speakers have to be Small; can't send LFE to Large fronts ... 15:58 in the pairs of speakers (L/R fronts, L/R surrounds), in the crossover region, makes sure the mono material (bass) sums up in phase .... 17:54 the difference between DL Bass Control and DL Bass Management; DLBM applies the 4th order L-R crossover filters for bass management; (do all processors work this way, or just Denon/Marantz? Will Emotiva work this way?) ... 23:00 see how Dirac now shows the result of Bass Management so you can tweak the crossover and see the result ... 24:15 go from DLBM to DLBC and see how Bass Control applies all-pass filters, calculates new filters, iterates for fewest variations in bass response 31:45 benefit with single subwoofer? ... if there is a cancellation at the crossover point, DLBC can correct that 38:52 visualize how DLBC reduces seat to seat variation
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Post by ttocs on Feb 22, 2024 8:26:47 GMT -5
I agree... that you would have to give up some of the benefits claimed for DLBC. HOWEVER, unless all of the channels are being handled by the miniDSP, this limitation would apply to using ANY miniDSP box to handle ONLY your subs. In other words, if miniDSP comes out with a box that runs DLBC, unless it also manages ALL of your speakers, this limitation would apply to it. Correct.
The ONLY ways I can imagine to overcome this limitation would be: 1. To have a miniDSP box with built-in decoders and HDMI inputs that totally replaced your processor. 2. To have a miniDSP with enough inputs for ALL of your channels... and feed ALL of the channels from the processor through it (presumably in analog). 3. To have DLBC running on BOTH the miniDSP AND the processor, licensed on both, and have the Dirac software on the computer be able to "coordinate" the two. (This would actually not be impossible, but would require a lot of programming on the part of Dirac, and multiple licenses for the user, and I haven't heard any plans to offer it.)
The only remaining question would be of how important you believe that having DLBC coordinate between more than three subs would be... As compared to also having it somehow coordinate between your subs and other speakers (better than Dirac Live already does that)... And whether you would consider it worthwhile to get the one without the other. This is a statement from miniDSP that I've posted elsewhere, but applies here. "DLBC will align that main speaker pair in the crossover region for all subs. In other words, you can get clarification on the most typical question we get: Why don't you get us a MultiSUB processor with DLBC for subs only?... It's simply not possible as it would require all your other speakers to be processed by Dirac." Whatever miniDSP is releasing soon will be outputting signals for subwoofers and speakers with the crossovers being handled inside the miniDSP box by DLBC. Well, I've got 8 subwoofers that I'd like to connect individually so DLBC could do the coordination between subs and subs&speakers, which is very important. Dirac Live doesn't coordinate anything between channels, it just does full range correction on a per-channel basis."One without the other" ? DLBC operates within Dirac Live and is an addon feature, so I need and want both.
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Post by foggy1956 on Feb 22, 2024 8:37:29 GMT -5
I agree... that you would have to give up some of the benefits claimed for DLBC. HOWEVER, unless all of the channels are being handled by the miniDSP, this limitation would apply to using ANY miniDSP box to handle ONLY your subs. In other words, if miniDSP comes out with a box that runs DLBC, unless it also manages ALL of your speakers, this limitation would apply to it. Correct.
The ONLY ways I can imagine to overcome this limitation would be: 1. To have a miniDSP box with built-in decoders and HDMI inputs that totally replaced your processor. 2. To have a miniDSP with enough inputs for ALL of your channels... and feed ALL of the channels from the processor through it (presumably in analog). 3. To have DLBC running on BOTH the miniDSP AND the processor, licensed on both, and have the Dirac software on the computer be able to "coordinate" the two. (This would actually not be impossible, but would require a lot of programming on the part of Dirac, and multiple licenses for the user, and I haven't heard any plans to offer it.)
The only remaining question would be of how important you believe that having DLBC coordinate between more than three subs would be... As compared to also having it somehow coordinate between your subs and other speakers (better than Dirac Live already does that)... And whether you would consider it worthwhile to get the one without the other. Well, I've got 8 subwoofers that I'd like to connect individually so DLBC could do the coordination between subs and subs&speakers, which is very important. Dirac Live doesn't coordinate anything between channels, it just does full range correction on a per-channel basis."One without the other" ? DLBC operates within Dirac Live and is an addon feature, so I need and want both.If DL only operates on individual speakers, what is the purpose of being able to group them? Nvrmnd, think I remember why
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,987
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Post by KeithL on Feb 22, 2024 16:53:57 GMT -5
How very cool... they look like they have a nice selection... and their prices are REALLY reasonable.
Just bought three of these to put in a little box. Split L/R at 50Hz, highs go to the Magnepan 3.7 Fronts, sum the lows and send them to subs separate from the processor Bass Management so Fronts stay Large. Split C at 200Hz, highs to the Magnepan CCR mid-ribbon and lows to two Dynamic Bass Modules ... then set C=Small crossing to Bass Management at 50Hz. With Fronts=Large and Center Sub=LFE, all Bass Management goes to the Fronts. This is lining me up for a plan to replace my subs with two Open Baffle Dipoles this year. And if hell freezes over ... DLBC! View Attachment
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Post by marcl on Feb 22, 2024 18:34:12 GMT -5
How very cool... they look like they have a nice selection... and their prices are REALLY reasonable.
Just bought three of these to put in a little box. Split L/R at 50Hz, highs go to the Magnepan 3.7 Fronts, sum the lows and send them to subs separate from the processor Bass Management so Fronts stay Large. Split C at 200Hz, highs to the Magnepan CCR mid-ribbon and lows to two Dynamic Bass Modules ... then set C=Small crossing to Bass Management at 50Hz. With Fronts=Large and Center Sub=LFE, all Bass Management goes to the Fronts. This is lining me up for a plan to replace my subs with two Open Baffle Dipoles this year. And if hell freezes over ... DLBC! View AttachmentSo when they come in a week or so my goal will be to mount them in a little plastic box without cutting myself.
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Post by creimes on Feb 22, 2024 19:48:59 GMT -5
That's how my once owned Marantz processor sounded it's best, not connected to anything bahahahaha, I owned the 7702 a few years back but for me 2ch use is of utmost importance and it easily got bested by even my Sherbourn PT-7020C4 for 2ch use at that time, I no longer have interest in that brand, but that's just me and myself
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Post by webmst007 on Feb 23, 2024 0:02:01 GMT -5
I agree + My 7703 ( kept as a backup) and a now departed 7706 were nowhere near the RMC1 for 2 channel.
So if ( and I'm not saying his is my likely route) for arguments sake - you were to consider a dual Dirac with an add-on minidsp. The minidsp Dirac package would time align (in theory) and present say 4 or more subs to their best possible performance. If this is done without setting their cross overs low then the G4P Dirac bass could then "see" the combined subs as a single sub which would then integrate that with a cross over based of the array's overall performance.
So for me the difference would be - replace the Venue260 + REW + MSO with a minidsp + Dirac + Bass modules. Maybe take the 14 day trial and see what it looks like in practice. Then decide if it's worth it. Keep the minidsp anyway as it's easier to use for the subs and wait until the expansion boards come available. There's also an additional aligned setup I'd like to try whereby I setup 2 front subs and just the mains for Stereo with dirac.
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Post by monkumonku on Feb 24, 2024 18:01:16 GMT -5
Meze Audio 99 Classics
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Post by monkumonku on Feb 26, 2024 19:44:48 GMT -5
Meze Pro 109
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Post by MusicHead on Feb 27, 2024 21:11:08 GMT -5
A couple of hi-tech gadgets: TP-LINK USB Wi-Fi adapter, an upgrade for my wife old PC, which I repurposed as HTPC. Foldable 36W LMENGER Solar Charger with USB-C ports. Handy for camping and hiking:
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Post by marcl on Mar 4, 2024 17:24:42 GMT -5
Progress on my LCR 2-Way Crossover project. Got the holes cut in the box and roughed out the component fit today. Didn't cut myself, but did get yelled at for stankin' up the house with burnt ABS fumes Tomorrow I'll refine the fit, and do a vinyl wrap to improve the aesthetics. Then mount the parts and be ready to test on Wednesday.
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Post by marcl on Mar 7, 2024 11:09:30 GMT -5
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,233
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Post by novisnick on Mar 8, 2024 22:58:36 GMT -5
Some great upbeat jazz from Jackpot Records. If you don’t tap your toes to this one you must be comatose! upload png
Currently playing as well
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Post by vcautokid on Mar 9, 2024 11:52:57 GMT -5
Kind of didn't want to keep buying Chi-Fi for my creation and listening pleasure. Sound Devices has really bowled me over with their professional portable production gear. No wonder TV and Film Professionals rely on them. They are built solid, and sound great conforming to all audio production norms. Never any surprises with Sound Devices. I just bought a used 442 mixer for my companion to the 702 Recorder I have and the rest of creation and listening gear I have in my creation studio. A commitment. Heck even comes with the Sound Devices Travel Sound Bag too. Such a deal. Oh yeah, original retail was about $3200.00, of course I paid nowhere close to that.
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Post by mgbpuff on Mar 12, 2024 14:31:02 GMT -5
Vanguard Scout speakers by Vera-Link, LLC
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Post by stumpypete on Mar 14, 2024 5:53:49 GMT -5
Just purchased a used Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 3 from deciBEL audio on usaudiomart. I am very pleased with the build quality! Dark background sound stage is high and wide. Wouldn't fit in my rack, had to buy a floor stand lol. It replaces a Parasound A-23. Like I said, I am very happy!
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Post by jjkessler on Mar 14, 2024 6:50:33 GMT -5
Bob Marley Exodus on Vinyl
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