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Post by rbk123 on Dec 10, 2020 21:48:49 GMT -5
That is entirely possible - if the cable is problematic it could be slower to lock.
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pic499
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Post by pic499 on Dec 12, 2020 16:02:54 GMT -5
Amazingly clear explanation. I’ve read so many posts about sub configuration, and this is the first time I’ve understood it 👍 I think it helped a little, but I'm still confused. I guess what it comes down to is that I don't understand what "Bass Mgmt" actually is. I understand what LFE is, but I have always thought that "Bass Mgmt" was just controlling crossover frequency for the sub. Thinking back to a demo at Emotiva...Damon was talking about how anything below the x-over frequencies of the "small" speakers gets re-directed elsewhere...is this what "Bass Mgmt" is? And, more importantly...if I want the sub to handle both LFE and any re-directed bass...what setting should I choose (would "mono" allow that?) and does it matter whether I use the Left, Center, or Right sub output? Thanks! Mark (PS - I have just 1 sub...Rythmik F25) Any Subwoofer output set to Mono will provide the bass for all Small speakers. Further, if the Center Sub output is configured as Mono, it too will provide the bass for the Small speakers. LFE will ALSO be present when these settings are used. The only instance whereby LFE does NOT get directed to the Left/Right Sub outputs is when the Center Sub output is configured as LFE. This means that ALL BASS for ALL Small speakers gets sent to ONLY the Left and Right subwoofer outputs and NO LFE gets sent to the Left and Right outputs. This also means that ONLY LFE gets sent to the Center Sub output and the Center Sub will never be sent any bass for any Small speaker, it's LFE only. Bass Management is any bass meant for any channel where the speaker is setup as a Small speaker, so Bass Management will send bass below the crossover to the available subwoofers or Large speakers - depending on the specific setup. These processors are VERY versatile in how all of this can be setup!!!! Left/Right Sub Outputs:: Set to Mono or Dual Mono Center Sub Output:: Set to Mono This scenario will send LFE and all bass for Small speakers to all subwoofers.Left/Right Sub Outputs:: Set to Mono or Dual Mono Center Sub Output:: Set to LFE Bass for Small speakers is sent ONLY to Left/Right Subwoofers. LFE is sent ONLY to Center Sub.Left/Right Sub Outputs:: Set to None Center Sub Output:: Set to Mono This scenario will send LFE and all bass for Small speakers to the Center Sub.Left/Right Sub Outputs:: Set to None Center Sub Output:: Set to LFE*** This scenario is only possible when there are Large Front speakers to which Bass Management can send bass for Small speakers, or, only Large speakers are used. If there are Small speakers in the system, something needs to be present to handle the bass below the crossover point.So. It all boils down to whether there are subwoofers that we want to dedicate to providing ONLY LFE and nothing else. If that's the case, then one must go through the process of deciding what will handle the Bass Management duties. If not, then set every subwoofer in the system to some form of MONO, and this will depend on if only one output is used, two outputs (which ones?), or all three of the original outputs available. Clear as mud? (A term I've used since grade school.)
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 12, 2020 16:07:43 GMT -5
Amazingly clear explanation. I’ve read so many posts about sub configuration, and this is the first time I’ve understood it 👍 I totally agree...so much so that I recommend Emotiva strongly considers revising the manual. As is, the manual did me no good for setting up my subs. KeithL - can you make that happen? Mark
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 14, 2020 10:08:05 GMT -5
KeithLKeith - take a look at the comment on the 1st page about the issue with Roon going into the USB stream via my UltraRendu. I am finding the issue to be very repeatable. If I have the UltraRendu powered off, turn it on, then turn on the XMC-2, switch to the XMC-2 input I have set up to take the USB stream input, Roon plays music fine. If I then shut off the XMC-2, leave the UltraRendu on, then later power up the XMC-2 again and switch to the XMC-2's USB Stream input - Roon looks like it's going to play the selection fine, but then quickly breezes through the album while playing nothing. I do not and never have had this issue if I run UltraRendu to my external DAC to the XMC-1 via the Balance analog inputs (and so far...knock on wood...not had it with the XMC-2 either). I did briefly have the UltraRendu going into my old XMC-1's USB input, and that worked fine also (of course...since I sent it back to Emotiva...I can't re-test that). Net, it seems to be specific to the XMC-2's USB stream input. Thoughts? Mark
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Post by ttocs on Dec 14, 2020 11:25:31 GMT -5
KeithL Keith - take a look at the comment on the 1st page about the issue with Roon going into the USB stream via my UltraRendu. I am finding the issue to be very repeatable. If I have the UltraRendu powered off, turn it on, then turn on the XMC-2, switch to the XMC-2 input I have set up to take the USB stream input, Roon plays music fine. If I then shut off the XMC-2, leave the UltraRendu on, then later power up the XMC-2 again and switch to the XMC-2's USB Stream input - Roon looks like it's going to play the selection fine, but then quickly breezes through the album while playing nothing. I do not and never have had this issue if I run UltraRendu to my external DAC to the XMC-1 via the Balance analog inputs (and so far...knock on wood...not had it with the XMC-2 either). I did briefly have the UltraRendu going into my old XMC-1's USB input, and that worked fine also (of course...since I sent it back to Emotiva...I can't re-test that). Net, it seems to be specific to the XMC-2's USB stream input. Thoughts? Mark Mark, are you by chance using Reference Stereo as the audio mode? There are some known issues with Reference Stereo via Analog and Optical, don't remember if USB was ever referenced. These issues crop up based upon how an input's default audio mode is setup, THEN, how that input is accessed. Sometimes stuttering issues arise when going from one input with its default audio mode to the input using Ref Stereo, other instances involve switching the audio mode to Ref Stereo on the fly.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 14, 2020 12:33:27 GMT -5
I don't know what's specifically going on there but I have an idea...
Different USB audio sources, like computers, use different methods to determine when a USB audio device is connected to them. The USB standard lists several such methods but does not specifically require that everyone use all of them. For example, if you reboot a Mac Mini, connected to one of our DACs via USB, it works fine. However, if that same Mac Mini hibernates, when it wakes up it will often fail to detect that our DAC is connected, and won't work. (The solution is to disconnect and reconnect the USB cable... or simply reboot the Mac Mini rather than allow it to hibernate. When you do either of those, the Mac Mini fully enumerates all of the USB audio devices connected to it, and again recognizes our DAC. ) This may indeed act differently if a specific DAC responds differently to the method a particular computer uses to detect what's connected to it.
We have specifically noticed that, if you have a Windows computer connected to one of our processors, and you turn the processor off... When you turn the processor back on the computer will NOT recognize it as a valid USB audio device until you reboot the computer... Sometimes physically disconnecting and reconnecting the USB cable also seems to work - but not with all computers.
I've seen similar behavior with a Raspberry Pi (which is also a small computer.)
(We're not sure exactly the details of why this happens and it's on our list of things to look into...)
Internally the UltraRendu is a computer... So, when you turn the Rednu on while our processor is still off, or turn our processor off while the Rendu is on... The Rendu "decides we either aren't there or aren't answering" and "invalidates us as an output device"...
(That's the technical term for "it decides we either aren't there any more and crosses us off its list of valid output devices"... ) Then, once you restart the Rendu while our processor is connected and turns on, it again sees us.
The odd behavior you're seeing is simply Roon's response to "trying to send audio to an invalid output device"... Roon was told to use that output device but, according to the operating system, it isn't responding.
Internally it's probably "trying to play a song, receiving an error from the operating system, then trying the next one"...
(How errors are handled is up to the programmers... they may be assuming the song is in an invalid format and maybe the next one will work.)
I would expect this NOT to happen if you turn on the Rendu AFTER our processor has been turned on.
Or if you reboot the Rendu after you turn our processor back on.
It also won't happen if you simply leave both turned on.
KeithL Keith - take a look at the comment on the 1st page about the issue with Roon going into the USB stream via my UltraRendu. I am finding the issue to be very repeatable. If I have the UltraRendu powered off, turn it on, then turn on the XMC-2, switch to the XMC-2 input I have set up to take the USB stream input, Roon plays music fine. If I then shut off the XMC-2, leave the UltraRendu on, then later power up the XMC-2 again and switch to the XMC-2's USB Stream input - Roon looks like it's going to play the selection fine, but then quickly breezes through the album while playing nothing. I do not and never have had this issue if I run UltraRendu to my external DAC to the XMC-1 via the Balance analog inputs (and so far...knock on wood...not had it with the XMC-2 either). I did briefly have the UltraRendu going into my old XMC-1's USB input, and that worked fine also (of course...since I sent it back to Emotiva...I can't re-test that). Net, it seems to be specific to the XMC-2's USB stream input. Thoughts? Mark
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 14, 2020 12:48:09 GMT -5
"Bass Management" is a somewhat general term for "managing where the low frequencies are sent" (that was helpful, wasn't it?) This encompasses all of the routing and crossover points for all of it.
Most surround sound content has a separate channel for "Low Frequency Effects" (the LFE channel).
That channel is normally sent to your sub or subs - but it could be sent to your main speakers if they're large and you don't have a sub.
And, if your other speakers are small, low bass is generally diverted away from them, and also sent to your sub. And, even if your other speakers aren't really small, you may choose to do this for other reasons. (Reducing the amount of low bass they have to handle may enable them to sound better - and will reduce the amount of work those amps have to do.) And some systems include an option like "enhanced bass" that sends all the bass to everything that can handle it (not recommended for the best sound).
ALL OF THIS falls under "bass management" ("managing the low frequencies").
Although, as a sort of verbal shorthand, many people tend to think of the LFE channel as "always going to the sub"....
Many people also tend to refer to the LFE channel as "the subwoofer channel" - although this is in fact not technically correct. And some people think of only the low bass that is diverted from the other channels as "bass management bass" (as different from "LFE bass".) Technically... it's all "bass management".
And, at a more general level, systems that simply play music from full range speakers "don't have bass management". And systems that offer ways in which you can control which speakers the low frequencies are routed to "have bass management". If you have all Large speakers setup in the menu then LFE will be a choice for the Center Sub because Bass Management is not needed. When there is any speaker set as Small there must be either Large speakers or Subwoofers to send Bass Management to. If there are no Large speakers, then there must be a Subwoofer to send BM to, and if there is, and that sub is not using the Center Sub output, then LFE will be a choice presented in the menu for the Center Sub. When the Center Sub is set as LFE, it will not provide any BM. It is only for Low Frequency Effects. Put another way, if Bass Management is not needed, or is able to be sent to Subs or Large speakers, then LFE will show up in the menu for Center Sub. So, I've had my system setup with Center Sub:: LFE, and had the BM sent to my Large L&R speakers. That was a huge improvement for all the Small speakers! Now, I'm in the process of finalizing some extra subs specifically for BM which will be connected to the Left & Right Sub outputs. At this point I will have a 3-subwoofer group via miniDSP for LFE, and two 2-subwoofer groups (timed independently) for BM, L&R set as Large, and all other speakers set as Small. I am providing this info just for clarification as to what is possible with these processors. Hope this helps a little. I think it helped a little, but I'm still confused. I guess what it comes down to is that I don't understand what "Bass Mgmt" actually is. I understand what LFE is, but I have always thought that "Bass Mgmt" was just controlling crossover frequency for the sub. Thinking back to a demo at Emotiva...Damon was talking about how anything below the x-over frequencies of the "small" speakers gets re-directed elsewhere...is this what "Bass Mgmt" is? And, more importantly...if I want the sub to handle both LFE and any re-directed bass...what setting should I choose (would "mono" allow that?) and does it matter whether I use the Left, Center, or Right sub output? Thanks! Mark (PS - I have just 1 sub...Rythmik F25)
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 14, 2020 12:59:43 GMT -5
KeithL Keith - take a look at the comment on the 1st page about the issue with Roon going into the USB stream via my UltraRendu. I am finding the issue to be very repeatable. If I have the UltraRendu powered off, turn it on, then turn on the XMC-2, switch to the XMC-2 input I have set up to take the USB stream input, Roon plays music fine. If I then shut off the XMC-2, leave the UltraRendu on, then later power up the XMC-2 again and switch to the XMC-2's USB Stream input - Roon looks like it's going to play the selection fine, but then quickly breezes through the album while playing nothing. I do not and never have had this issue if I run UltraRendu to my external DAC to the XMC-1 via the Balance analog inputs (and so far...knock on wood...not had it with the XMC-2 either). I did briefly have the UltraRendu going into my old XMC-1's USB input, and that worked fine also (of course...since I sent it back to Emotiva...I can't re-test that). Net, it seems to be specific to the XMC-2's USB stream input. Thoughts? Mark Mark, are you by chance using Reference Stereo as the audio mode? There are some known issues with Reference Stereo via Analog and Optical, don't remember if USB was ever referenced. These issues crop up based upon how an input's default audio mode is setup, THEN, how that input is accessed. Sometimes stuttering issues arise when going from one input with its default audio mode to the input using Ref Stereo, other instances involve switching the audio mode to Ref Stereo on the fly. At this point, I have the USB Stream input set to stereo, not reference stereo. I suspect what Keith mentions is what's happening. This may drive me to just keep the external DAC (my Geek) instead of using the XMC-2's internal DAC. I'm about to listen to the Geek vs. the USB stream in reference stereo mode to see if I can hear differences. I certainly did with the Geek vs. the XMC-1 with USB input. Mark
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 14, 2020 21:19:22 GMT -5
If anyone is interested, I reviewed the 2 channel sound of the XMC-2 with USB input to that of the XMC-2 using my external DAC. See the 3rd post of this thread on Page 1. (HINT: I liked my external DAC better, but I am not surprised. I have loved that DAC for a long time.)
Mark
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 14, 2020 21:22:06 GMT -5
"Bass Management" is a somewhat general term for "managing where the low frequencies are sent" (that was helpful, wasn't it?) Actually - the most helpful thing I have read on this topic is what TTOCS posted in this thread. Emotiva's technical writer would be well advised to modify their manual for the G3P's to reflect that kind of explanation because the current manual doesn't cut it. Mark
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 17, 2020 21:29:32 GMT -5
See my 2nd post on Page 1 of this thread for my summary to date on Dirac.
Enjoy!
Mark
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Post by ttocs on Dec 17, 2020 22:10:18 GMT -5
For Point Of Source Sound Attenuation from bi-peds: Get a bluetooth version for complete hands free operation. Of course, it won't help with the stomping around stuff.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 17, 2020 22:40:12 GMT -5
Get a bluetooth version for complete hands free operation. Of course, it won't help with the stomping around stuff. I'm not sure which was worse - the stomping or the sewing machine. She's a pro seamstress with a degree in Fashion Design, and her sewing machine is pretty loud and powerful. (She does costumes/clothing for stage and other reasons for a living...so even 2 stories up, that machine "makes itself known") Her scissors are also pretty wicked, so I was "kind" in my requests to be quiet... Mark
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Post by ttocs on Dec 17, 2020 22:47:28 GMT -5
Get a bluetooth version for complete hands free operation. Of course, it won't help with the stomping around stuff. I'm not sure which was worse - the stomping or the sewing machine. She's a pro seamstress with a degree in Fashion Design, and her sewing machine is pretty loud and powerful. (She does costumes/clothing for stage and other reasons for a living...so even 2 stories up, that machine "makes itself known") Her scissors are also pretty wicked, so I was "kind" in my requests to be quiet... Mark Mrs. Scissorhands! (Sorry, just had to.)That's quite a talent there! I'm fascinated by the speed pros can operate at with those sewing machines!! I really am! My feeble attempts resulted in Frankenstein's Monster scar-like stitches.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Dec 18, 2020 11:16:43 GMT -5
Get a bluetooth version for complete hands free operation. Of course, it won't help with the stomping around stuff. I'm not sure which was worse - the stomping or the sewing machine. She's a pro seamstress with a degree in Fashion Design, and her sewing machine is pretty loud and powerful. (She does costumes/clothing for stage and other reasons for a living...so even 2 stories up, that machine "makes itself known") Her scissors are also pretty wicked, so I was "kind" in my requests to be quiet... Mark I can sympathize. I have to have everyone gone from the house for a couple hours because they don't know what silent means. All I get is "he's making those funny noises again!"
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 19, 2020 15:25:25 GMT -5
I had hoped my USB extender cable would arrive today, and as of this morning it was on track to be delivered by 10 PM. Suddenly, the tracking changed to "maybe tomorrow or Monday". Argh! Likely won't be re-running Dirac tomorrow unless it arrives early. My next window is Tuesday.
Mark
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