Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 15, 2023 21:31:14 GMT -5
I came back looking for an announcement but I guess not yet. I returned my SMSL DAC so I’m back in the market. Hi Lsc - Curiosity prompts me to ask - Why did you return your SMSL DAC? Thanks - Boomzilla No worries. I returned it because I’d really like to get a one box solution with a DAC and a preamp in one with a HT bypass. Or even separate components but without the idiosyncrasies that I encountered below. The sound quality of the SMSL D400ES and the Topping Pre90 far exceeded the XMC2 but the clunky HT bypass solution along with the clicking when you change the volume on the pre90 made me say “ok, now we know how much better my salon2 can sound with a superior front end, let’s wait and get a better long term solution”. I felt like I got new speakers, the sound quality improvements were that profound. And confirmed by the wifey who couldn’t care less about my system except for the fact that she wants me to stop spending money on it  . |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 15, 2023 21:43:50 GMT -5
I came back looking for an announcement but I guess not yet. I returned my SMSL DAC so I’m back in the market. If you have the budget I can't recommend the Gustard A26 enough. This is a very nice DAC! Thanks. I didn’t have a problem with the sound quality of the D400ES. I actually took it over to my friend’s house who has the same salon2 as me but a way better front end including the Denafrips Terminator DAC. Side by side, his DAC was better but not by much. The gains were fine there. It was the dedicated 2 channel preamp vs the XMC2 that took it to another level beyond the DAC gains (good chunk). I’m sure the A26 is better but I’m trying to lower my price of entry for DACs like the SU-9 pro ($499). I’m also curious how good the new G4P processors will be. |
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Post by fbczar on Feb 16, 2023 19:29:22 GMT -5
If you have the budget I can't recommend the Gustard A26 enough. This is a very nice DAC! Thanks. I didn’t have a problem with the sound quality of the D400ES. I actually took it over to my friend’s house who has the same salon2 as me but a way better front end including the Denafrips Terminator DAC. Side by side, his DAC was better but not by much. The gains were fine there. It was the dedicated 2 channel preamp vs the XMC2 that took it to another level beyond the DAC gains (good chunk). I’m sure the A26 is better but I’m trying to lower my price of entry for DACs like the SU-9 pro ($499). I’m also curious how good the new G4P processors will be. Which Stereo Preamp was your friend using? |
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Post by fbczar on Feb 16, 2023 19:35:10 GMT -5
Hi Lsc - Curiosity prompts me to ask - Why did you return your SMSL DAC? Thanks - Boomzilla No worries. I returned it because I’d really like to get a one box solution with a DAC and a preamp in one with a HT bypass. Or even separate components but without the idiosyncrasies that I encountered below. The sound quality of the SMSL D400ES and the Topping Pre90 far exceeded the XMC2 but the clunky HT bypass solution along with the clicking when you change the volume on the pre90 made me say “ok, now we know how much better my salon2 can sound with a superior front end, let’s wait and get a better long term solution”. I felt like I got new speakers, the sound quality improvements were that profound. And confirmed by the wifey who couldn’t care less about my system except for the fact that she wants me to stop spending money on it . Did you, by chance, compare the XMC-2 to the SMSL D400ES and Topping Pre90 while running Dirac on the XMC-2? Thanks. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 16, 2023 23:24:10 GMT -5
Thanks. I didn’t have a problem with the sound quality of the D400ES. I actually took it over to my friend’s house who has the same salon2 as me but a way better front end including the Denafrips Terminator DAC. Side by side, his DAC was better but not by much. The gains were fine there. It was the dedicated 2 channel preamp vs the XMC2 that took it to another level beyond the DAC gains (good chunk). I’m sure the A26 is better but I’m trying to lower my price of entry for DACs like the SU-9 pro ($499). I’m also curious how good the new G4P processors will be. Which Stereo Preamp was your friend using? He has the Balanced Audio Technology (BAT) VK33-SE. It’s a tube preamp and is excellent. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 17, 2023 0:42:22 GMT -5
Did you, by chance, compare the XMC-2 to the SMSL D400ES and Topping Pre90 while running Dirac on the XMC-2? Thanks. Yes. First the D400ES going thru the XMC2 sounded much better than XMC2 w Dirac. I have used Dirac for a long time btw. So, bypassing the XMC2 raised the improvement by another level. |
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Post by fbczar on Feb 17, 2023 0:53:32 GMT -5
Did you, by chance, compare the XMC-2 to the SMSL D400ES and Topping Pre90 while running Dirac on the XMC-2? Thanks. Yes. First the D400ES going thru the XMC2 sounded much better than XMC2 w Dirac. I have used Dirac for a long time btw. So, bypassing the XMC2 raised the improvement by another level. That the DAC was an improvement by itself is good to know. I have no doubt a high end stereo preamp would make a considerable difference. Perhaps I can buy a new DAC and then get a preamp later. I am relatively certain a lot of older high end preamps would be better than the XMC-2, but most do not have a home theater bypass. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Feb 17, 2023 7:44:45 GMT -5
Yes. First the D400ES going thru the XMC2 sounded much better than XMC2 w Dirac. I have used Dirac for a long time btw. So, bypassing the XMC2 raised the improvement by another level. That the DAC was an improvement by itself is good to know. I have no doubt a high end stereo preamp would make a considerable difference. Perhaps I can buy a new DAC and then get a preamp later. I am relatively certain a lot of older high end preamps would be better than the XMC-2, but most do not have a home theater bypass. I have a Denafrips Ares II dac which I use with my Emotiva ERC-1 cd player as well as my Bluesound Node. The Denafrips is a definite improvement over the internal XMC-2 dac and a larger improvement over the built-in Bluesound dac. That being said, the XMC-2 dac is no slouch and easily surpasses the run 0f the mill receiver dacs. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 17, 2023 11:32:54 GMT -5
I'm going to chime in here and be a bit of a killjoy... The actual analog section of the XMC-2, which is what you're using when you use Reference Stereo mode with an analog input, is actually quite good. And, likewise, the DACs are also quite good (if you select Reference Stereo, with a digital input, you're obviously going to be using the DACs, but you will bypass all the other processing). I'm certainly not going to claim that there's nothing better sounding than the XMC-2 on the entire planet... However... to be quite blunt... There are some great sounding preamps in the world... and some not so great ones... (It really isn't all that difficult to build an incredibly good analog preamp - if you avoid unnecessary frills and extras.) There are also some great sounding DACs in the world as well... and some not so great ones... (and some downright awful ones). And, sadly, which is which doesn't always have anything whatsoever to do with what they cost... And, of course, some audio gear simply adds some coloration that happens to appeal to a particular group of its fans... (I like to say that: "While some high-end gear has a great sounding brochure - the sound of the actual equipment doesn't always live up to the claims in the brochure".) And, again to be blunt, the XMC-2 actually compares quite favorably to many "high-end" stereo preamps and DACs... All I'm saying is that you should not ASSUME anything... (I would strongly suggest making the comparison for yourself before assuming what the result will be.) I would also NOT even try to compare "the XMC-2 with Dirac" to "a separate DAC without processing"... Because, with Dirac, you are obviously going through a LOT more processing, so you are by no means doing "an apples to apples comparison"... To do that you would want to compare a separate DAC to the XMC-2 in Reference Stereo mode (so you're basically comparing the two DACs)... And, likewise, to compare the ANALOG performance of the XMC-2 to that of an analog preamp, you would want to use Reference Stereo mode and an analog source... (While the corrections something like Dirac Live provides for your room and speakers are often a significant "net improvement", which can provide justification to use them, processing is still processing... ) Yes. First the D400ES going thru the XMC2 sounded much better than XMC2 w Dirac. I have used Dirac for a long time btw. So, bypassing the XMC2 raised the improvement by another level. That the DAC was an improvement by itself is good to know. I have no doubt a high end stereo preamp would make a considerable difference. Perhaps I can buy a new DAC and then get a preamp later. I am relatively certain a lot of older high end preamps would be better than the XMC-2, but most do not have a home theater bypass. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 17, 2023 12:12:44 GMT -5
I'm going to chime in here and be a bit of a killjoy... The actual analog section of the XMC-2, which is what you're using when you use Reference Stereo mode with an analog input, is actually quite good. And, likewise, the DACs are also quite good (if you select Reference Stereo, with a digital input, you're obviously going to be using the DACs, but you will bypass all the other processing). I'm certainly not going to claim that there's nothing better sounding than the XMC-2 on the entire planet... However... to be quite blunt... There are some great sounding preamps in the world... and some not so great ones... (It really isn't all that difficult to build an incredibly good analog preamp - if you avoid unnecessary frills and extras.) There are also some great sounding DACs in the world as well... and some not so great ones... (and some downright awful ones). And, sadly, which is which doesn't always have anything whatsoever to do with what they cost... And, of course, some audio gear simply adds some coloration that happens to appeal to a particular group of its fans... (I like to say that: "While some high-end gear has a great sounding brochure - the sound of the actual equipment doesn't always live up to the claims in the brochure".) And, again to be blunt, the XMC-2 actually compares quite favorably to many "high-end" stereo preamps and DACs... All I'm saying is that you should not ASSUME anything... (I would strongly suggest making the comparison for yourself before assuming what the result will be.) I would also NOT even try to compare "the XMC-2 with Dirac" to "a separate DAC without processing"... Because, with Dirac, you are obviously going through a LOT more processing, so you are by no means doing "an apples to apples comparison"... To do that you would want to compare a separate DAC to the XMC-2 in Reference Stereo mode (so you're basically comparing the two DACs)... And, likewise, to compare the ANALOG performance of the XMC-2 to that of an analog preamp, you would want to use Reference Stereo mode and an analog source... (While the corrections something like Dirac Live provides for your room and speakers are often a significant "net improvement", which can provide justification to use them, processing is still processing... ) OK - Allow me to be a bit of a killjoy as well… Since you admit that “processing is processing,” the absence of processing in the signal path is NOT the same as absence of processing happening in the same chassis. Unless you’re trying to assert that RF and EMI shielding is ABSOLUTE, then the multitude of HT processes in ANY home theater component have at least the potential to affect the stereo signal in ways that are completely impossible in a non-HT-component. Yes, manufacturers attempt to shield unwanted interferences, but construction-costs/profit-margins impact how effective such attempts can be. It seems highly likely that ANY home theater component - even in bypass mode would have a measurably noisier signal path than an equivalent analog component sans HT circuitry. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 17, 2023 12:33:04 GMT -5
Yes. First the D400ES going thru the XMC2 sounded much better than XMC2 w Dirac. I have used Dirac for a long time btw. So, bypassing the XMC2 raised the improvement by another level. That the DAC was an improvement by itself is good to know. I have no doubt a high end stereo preamp would make a considerable difference. Perhaps I can buy a new DAC and then get a preamp later. I am relatively certain a lot of older high end preamps would be better than the XMC-2, but most do not have a home theater bypass. Without the HT bypass I agree it would be too much of a pain. That’s probably my plan as well. Now that I know how good the SMSL D400ES is, I can order the SU-9 pro which has 2 less inputs and is $300 less. $499 DAC to feel like you got new speakers is a good deal. The quality preamp is even a bigger difference but the pre90 I bought was a pain to use. I feel like a replacement to the pre90 - something that has 2 balanced inputs so one can be a HT bypass w fixed volume and the other the input to the DAC would be ideal. This means balanced DAC, preamp to go with my balanced amp. Pretty lofty hope though. Looking for a solution under $1500 that performs in the vicinity of my buddy’s preamp and DAC that retail for $15k lol. I think it’s possible. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 17, 2023 12:46:13 GMT -5
Also, I agree the Xmc2 is good. It’s why I returned the stuff because I can live with the xmc2 until I get exactly what suits me. Still waiting for Emotiva’s news but if it’s an another bas-x level product then obviously it’s a pass for me.
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Post by audiobill on Feb 17, 2023 15:08:07 GMT -5
Right, sometimes you get what you pay for.
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Post by routlaw on Feb 17, 2023 19:58:34 GMT -5
Thanks. I didn’t have a problem with the sound quality of the D400ES. I actually took it over to my friend’s house who has the same salon2 as me but a way better front end including the Denafrips Terminator DAC. Side by side, his DAC was better but not by much. The gains were fine there. It was the dedicated 2 channel preamp vs the XMC2 that took it to another level beyond the DAC gains (good chunk). I’m sure the A26 is better but I’m trying to lower my price of entry for DACs like the SU-9 pro ($499). I’m also curious how good the new G4P processors will be. Understood but will add this to the equation. Earlier in the thread Boomzilla suggested leaving any and all pre-amps out of the equation assuming of course your DAC had internal volume control of some nature. I had never done this but figured what the heck, keep an open mind and give it try. I haven't connected my A26 DAC to the RMC-1L since, the difference was night and day. Really blew me away and I was highly skeptical before trying this. It is worth pointing out one of the reviewers who reviewed the A26 thought it sounded better through his pre-amp but you have to understand his pre-amp was an $8500 affair being fed by a $1500 DAC but there could be some Confirmation/Expectation Bias going on there too. Same with your buddies BAT pre-amp not to mention tubes coming into play which really does create its own magic and sound signature. Normally I'm not one to believe price even enters into the equation of how good a component will sound, some might perform great others not so much. So now my method of HT bypass, quickly change balanced cables from feeding DAC directly to connecting to my RMC-1L for HT use. It's a bit more manual than flipping a switch but works and I have down to within a minute or so max. Easy peasy and sounds much better to boot. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 18, 2023 8:37:52 GMT -5
Thanks. I didn’t have a problem with the sound quality of the D400ES. I actually took it over to my friend’s house who has the same salon2 as me but a way better front end including the Denafrips Terminator DAC. Side by side, his DAC was better but not by much. The gains were fine there. It was the dedicated 2 channel preamp vs the XMC2 that took it to another level beyond the DAC gains (good chunk). I’m sure the A26 is better but I’m trying to lower my price of entry for DACs like the SU-9 pro ($499). I’m also curious how good the new G4P processors will be. Understood but will add this to the equation. Earlier in the thread Boomzilla suggested leaving any and all pre-amps out of the equation assuming of course your DAC had internal volume control of some nature. I had never done this but figured what the heck, keep an open mind and give it try. I haven't connected my A26 DAC to the RMC-1L since, the difference was night and day. Really blew me away and I was highly skeptical before trying this. It is worth pointing out one of the reviewers who reviewed the A26 thought it sounded better through his pre-amp but you have to understand his pre-amp was an $8500 affair being fed by a $1500 DAC but there could be some Confirmation/Expectation Bias going on there too. Same with your buddies BAT pre-amp not to mention tubes coming into play which really does create its own magic and sound signature. Normally I'm not one to believe price even enters into the equation of how good a component will sound, some might perform great others not so much. So now my method of HT bypass, quickly change balanced cables from feeding DAC directly to connecting to my RMC-1L for HT use. It's a bit more manual than flipping a switch but works and I have down to within a minute or so max. Easy peasy and sounds much better to boot. So do you think in your case using the volume control in the digital domain that’s supposed to lower resolution still sounds better than going thru the XMC2? I wouldn’t be surprised if it is. The A26 looks like very good DAC a level above what I was looking at. Can you stream Tidal or Amazon music? |
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Post by routlaw on Feb 18, 2023 9:27:26 GMT -5
So do you think in your case using the volume control in the digital domain that’s supposed to lower resolution still sounds better than going thru the XMC2? I wouldn’t be surprised if it is. The A26 looks like very good DAC a level above what I was looking at. Can you stream Tidal or Amazon music? Yes absolutely this is exactly what I was trying to convey. A few things worth noting though some of which is not 100% clear to me. It appears Gustard implements volume control a bit different than others but their description is not very thorough some due to language barriers and such. Effectively once the volume is turned down below -24 db an attenuator takes over the rest of the volume control, now what that attenuator actually is I’m not sure but its clearly different than a stepped resistor ladder network. I use this DAC with a Mac Mini and in that regard so long as an individual is willing to pay for the service there is nothing that cannot be streamed and can be implemented in a number of different ways. Personally I do not use either of the two you mention though. The A26 also has the capability of Ethernet use of Roon and or HQ Player which I have not used. |
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Post by routlaw on Feb 18, 2023 9:31:56 GMT -5
One last quick note. After removing the RMC-1L from the loop as a pre-amp in Reference Stereo mode the difference in sound quality was not subtle at all, at least in my setup. Link below if you want to try and read more about it. www.gustard.cn/?post_type=products&page_id=17027 |
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Post by bluemeanies on Feb 18, 2023 10:59:04 GMT -5
What could Emo possibly offer that's not readily available from many others? A lower price than Topping? You know your S_ _ t audiobill. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 18, 2023 13:36:30 GMT -5
What could Emo possibly offer that's not readily available from many others? A lower price than Topping? Well, I might feel obligated to toss in a comment as well…. Although there may not be any huge diversity of features between brands, I’d still assert that there is some diversity of “house sounds” between brands (although the differences are slowly converging as manufactures all strive for more accurate performance). In other words, a Yamaha is more likely to sound like another Yamaha than it is to sound like a McIntosh. An Emotiva is more likely to sound like another Emotiva than it is to sound like a Sony, etc. You pays your money; you takes your choice. Some folks swear by their flavor of choice while others say that performances are so close anymore that it’s smarter just to buy on a features per price basis. I, personally, tend to flip-flop between the two philosophies depending on the component under consideration. But as time goes by, I find myself slowly gravitating toward the “simpler is better” and “do I really need to spend more?” ways of looking at audio gear. Boom |
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Post by monkumonku on Feb 18, 2023 14:12:34 GMT -5
What could Emo possibly offer that's not readily available from many others? A lower price than Topping? Well, I might feel obligated to toss in a comment as well…. Although there may not be any huge diversity of features between brands, I’d still assert that there is some diversity of “house sounds” between brands (although the differences are slowly converging as manufactures all strive for more accurate performance). In other words, a Yamaha is more likely to sound like another Yamaha than it is to sound like a McIntosh. An Emotiva is more likely to sound like another Emotiva than it is to sound like a Sony, etc. You pays your money; you takes your choice. Some folks swear by their flavor of choice while others say that performances are so close anymore that it’s smarter just to buy on a features per price basis. I, personally, tend to flip-flop between the two philosophies depending on the component under consideration. But as time goes by, I find myself slowly gravitating toward the “simpler is better” and “do I really need to spend more?” ways of looking at audio gear. Boom Well the bottom line is with all the audio gear out there now, why should any manufacturer issue a new product? |
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