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Post by solidstate on Oct 29, 2009 11:23:14 GMT -5
I agree it doesn't go as low/loud as an HSU but in terms of "distortion" the Rythmik bests the HSU to my ear. I guess if the guy is into dance/trance/rap high SPL at 28Hz If this is your cup of tea and own a booming car stereo... you'll love the HSU! OR go with the 15" in a DIY ported design and your beloved Toccata and Fugue will best the HSU IMHO! Have you heard the Rythmik subs chuckienut ? Don't get me wrong the HSU is a fantastic sub! Both are amazing deals compared to practically anything else out there! I guess until Emotiva delivers their subs!
Solid-State
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Post by bridgehead on Oct 29, 2009 13:05:44 GMT -5
Solidstate,
Thanks for the advice.
The Rythmic looked interesting and about the same price.
The Hsu deal is done though.
I gotta say I love your Avatar!
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ray
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Ordered the new XMC-1.....well I am on the list!!
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Post by ray on Oct 29, 2009 13:39:41 GMT -5
Absolutely. One I got my pair of Epiks, the system really came alive. Well worth it IMO  |
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Post by DoingOK on Oct 29, 2009 13:55:02 GMT -5
+1 on the Epiks. I now have three different Epik models in the house.
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Post by roadrunner on Oct 29, 2009 15:26:01 GMT -5
I think bridghead would be very happy with either sub. They are both good choices. Without knowing the acoustical properties of his listening room and knowing the placement of everything in the room, there is really no way to say which sub would provide the better low-end response.
What I do know is that the HSU he selected has been very highly praised by a large variety of review sources. I have also listen to the HSU 3 for extended periods in my brother's HT system; and I can tell you that it blends very well with his Emotiva speakers. I am very confident bridgehead will thoroughly enjoy his system with the HSU sub providing the low-end support. Enjoy!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2009 20:54:37 GMT -5
Well, to get a little more specific the Rythmik 12" is very nice at the higher frequencies and should sound great with music with maybe the exception of Pipe organ music. However, if you look at the specs it is a relatively small sub of the conventional type subs (about 2 cu ft).
The VTF-3 MK-3 is a large sub of about 3cu ft which normally makes an audible improvement in the lower range for extension, loudness and lower distortion.
For example, the Finnish sub tests by Ilkka show the Rythmik went down to 31Hz at 100dB output with 10% distortion. The HSU went down to 22Hz at 100dB with 10%. The Rythmik was off the chart at 22Hz and 100dB's and was well over 30% at 24Hz!
I only point this out because many people intend to use a sub for 2.1 music only and then change their mind and blend it into a 5.1 audio/HT system. They also maybe learn why 5.1 MC sources are so great sounding and then also that 2 channel sources sound even better in a properly setup Dolby Pro Logic IIx mode. Like my friend at Axiom, AlanLofft says:
"..........Abandon Long-Held But Misguided Beliefs About Stereo
Try—if only for a few hours—to abandon any entrenched belief that stereo is the only way to listen to music. If you’ve been listening in stereo for the past 20 years or only listen using ear buds and an iPod, pick a couple of your favorite CDs to play back in 5.1 channels at a friend’s home who has an AV surround receiver, using Dolby Digital ProLogicII(x), dts Neo:6 or H/K’s Logic7. The added side surround speakers will bring those stereo recordings to life by steering the reflected and ambience cues to the side and rear surrounds, where they belong.
Of course, stereo was the standard format from the late 1950s until the mid-1990s, but digital recording has enabled not just more high-fidelity channels (up to 8, including the subwoofer channel) but sophisticated real-time “decoding” (analysis) of the stereo and phase information to extract reflective spatial cues that are routed to surround speakers will make music sound much more real, spacious and "live."
Think about the last concert you attended---indoor or outdoor. Sure, the performers were at the front, but the sound came at you from all directions, reflected and reinforced from side walls and ceilings in indoor concerts or even from foliage and buildings at outdoor venues. It’s those reflections combined with the direct sounds that make a recording sound real when it’s played in surround sound at home. Your brain can analyze the arrival times and strengths of direct and indirect reflections—but you’ll miss out on many of those time and amplitude cues if you listen only in stereo. The information will be there, but coming at you from the wrong direction. So think about upgrading that 15-year-old stereo receiver with its scratchy controls and noisy switches and entering the world of surround sound.
(Note: Not every stereo CD benefits. Many do, but much depends on the original engineering and mix of microphones. Live stereo recordings of all musical genres, jazz discs, opera and classical benefit the most. Get some simple two-or three-microphone “audiophile” recordings from labels such as Telarc, Chesky, Reference Recordings, and Mapleshade, to cite a few, and try those.) With a little adjustment of channel and surround speaker levels, a well-engineered stereo recording will be a sonic revelation when you hear it in 5.1 channels for the first time..........."
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Post by solidstate on Oct 31, 2009 16:11:22 GMT -5
Solidstate, Thanks for the advice. The Rythmic looked interesting and about the same price. The Hsu deal is done though. I gotta say I love your Avatar! Hey that sub your getting is FANTASTIC!!! A top notch unit for the coinage for SURE!!! I wouldn't second guess that purchase for a moment... You'll love it! Doc HSU makes fantastic subs! owhh and thanks for the complement on the Avatar! Solid-State PS Ilkka tests were at high SPL and due to the fact the sub has a rather underpowered amp so for crazy car stereo archetype SPLs the distortion is of no surprise when the amp is being driven to it's limits. I know they are working on a new plate-amp that's around 600W I believe. For my installs I don't believe the distortion at high SPLs is a problem as I add more subs if this is needed and my user base isn't into 20Hz at 100db... This is teenage car stereo freq/SPLs for morons IMHO... PSS If Ikka (20 something car stereo archetype) tested at a reasonable SPL then he would have found the rythmik has LESS distortion period at any frequency but compaints at 100db 20hz having distortion is just retarded IMHO |
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elvis
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Post by elvis on Oct 31, 2009 19:54:33 GMT -5
I use the MFW-15 sub and Rocket 850s in a 2.1 system. Amps are XPA-1s and USP-1.
I think the 850s compare closley to the 8.3s, though I've never heard the 8.3s, just read many opinions. I think both speakers compare very closely to Paradigm Studio 100s, which I've listened to several times. At a local dealer, they cost almost $3000. The 850s or the 8.3s are a LOT less.
I keep shutting off the sub to see if I really need it. Without the sub, the music sounds good, but it just sounds a bit flat and one dimensional. The sub really adds another layer to the music. Interesting Note: when I listened to the Studio 100s at a local shop, they dealer automatically used a sub.
I'm sure there are speakers out there that do not need a sub, but I'm also sure that they will cost a whole lot more than a comparable 2.1 setup.
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elvis
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Post by elvis on Oct 31, 2009 20:00:20 GMT -5
Absolutely. One I got my pair of Epiks, the system really came alive. Well worth it IMO Pardon my ignorance - why 2 subs? I keep reading that people are running 2 subs...in stereo? Can the ear detect direction in those low freqs? Or is it just that some people really like bass??? 2 mfw-15s in the same room would, in my opinion, be a little over to top. Make that a lot over the top. |
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scottl
Sensei
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Post by scottl on Oct 31, 2009 20:17:50 GMT -5
Actually, most dual-sub systems are using the same mixed mono signal to feed both subs. There are 2 key reasons for a pair of subs: room effects and headroom.
A single subwoofer will usually produce uneven bass response in a room, because of the reinforcement & cancellation of different frequencies by the room's natural acoustic. Once the sub's been positioned as well as possible, the easiest & most elegant way to even out room's effects is with a (properly positioned) second sub - shoring up or cancelling out the peaks and dips to produce a more uniform SPL & frequency response. This almost always beats the effects of room EQ.
Also, 2 subs will only have to work half as hard to produce the same SPL as a single sub. That translates into lower distortion, greater precision, longer life, more dynamic impact, and higher maximum volume.
My personal opinion is that two lesser (but good) subs are often a better investment than one greater sub of the same total price. YMMV.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2009 1:48:52 GMT -5
Solid-State PS Ilkka tests were at high SPL and due to the fact the sub has a rather underpowered amp so for crazy car stereo archetype SPLs the distortion is of no surprise when the amp is being driven to it's limits. I know they are working on a new plate-amp that's around 600W I believe. For my installs I don't believe the distortion at high SPLs is a problem as I add more subs if this is needed and my user base isn't into 20Hz at 100db... This is teenage car stereo freq/SPLs for morons IMHO... PSS If Ikka (20 something car stereo archetype) tested at a reasonable SPL then he would have found the rythmik has LESS distortion period at any frequency but compaints at 100db 20hz having distortion is just retarded IMHO The Finnish tests by Ikka included distortion tests at 90, 95, 100, and 105 dB's from 10-100Hz. I simply chose the 100 level to give what I would consider minimum HT performance. At 90dB's and 10% the Rythmik hit 20Hz while the HSU hit 14Hz, again better low extension performance. 10% is one of the common distortion level to test subs. As I mentioned the Rythmik should be "great" with music but not as good for HT IMO. In fact, the Rythmik's distortion level at higher frequencies were lower than the HSU. I only make my comments persuant to your comment that the " Rythmik is better." I wanted Bridgehead to know that overall I thought from my research that the HSU is a very good sub for music and especially for HT if he in fact goes that way. My comments go along with other brands and models of subs that are highly recommended and hyped on forums. I say hyped because many overlook their low frequency deficiencies. I am talking about the smaller box subs or even the mini cube style subs. The smaller subs are very impressive at first listen especially at other than the lower frequencies. The smaller of these subs like the mini cube types must offset their small enclosure/inherent lack of low extension, high output and high distortion with compensations like, very high power, heavy magnets and very long excursion drivers. Look at the mini subs from Sunfire for example. Many rave about their little Sunfire True Awesome Sub having 2700 watts! The implication is that somehow that must mean that the Sunfire will outperform the SVS PB12-Plus sub with 525 watts at about half the price of the Sunfire. Not a chance in hell! The huge power is to try and offset the inherent drawbacks in a small enclosure sub. The same is true of other larger but still relatively small subs like the Rythmik (note I mentioned the cabinet volume) and the 1500 watt F112 JL Audio for example. A recent review testing three large convention box size subs with three of the smaller subs included the SVS PB12-Plus and the JL F112. The SVS was clearly the top performer of all six subs including the smaller JL sub (about twice the price). I'm not in any way slamming the mini or small subs. There is certainly a place for them. However, go to the SVS site and read carefully the literature on their conventional large sub the PB12 Plus versus their smaller SB12 plus. They mention the performance differences due to the enclosure size. The smaller subs are great for those (actually lots of folks) who have space limitations and need a small footprint. For the size of their enclosures the performance can be impressive. I just want folks to know that for best performance to look at large subs, either sealed or ported if they can handle the size and weight. PS: Ilkka states in the review on the Rythmik: "..........The upper end stays really clean even when pushed really hard, but when listening to material with lots of high amplitude low frequencies (HT use), you will start to hear some amp clipping noises (ticking, crackling) at certain point. In my small room this was around 102-105 dBC measured around 2.5 meters from the subwoofer. The subwoofer will still go louder, but not without these noises. They can be hard to hear when other speakers are blasting, but if you turn them off, you will notice when the subwoofer starts to overload. Brian decided not to use any amp limiters, which helps to preserve the maximum dynamic capability of the amp. But as you can see from the THD graph, distortion grows pretty large below 30 - 40 Hz when pushed hard..........If one wants to match the clean (no overloading noises) output in 20 - 30 Hz range with the Monolith, one needs two of the 12" kits or one of the 15" kits (estimate since I haven't measured the 15" kit). The 15" kit should be around 3 - 5 dB louder than a single 12" kit. I would recommend using a 4 cu ft box with the 15" kit for higher deep bass sensitivity. I would recommend this as a minimum configuration for a home theater use, especially if you want to use higher than medium listening levels..........." |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2009 8:46:43 GMT -5
Solid-State PS Ilkka tests were at high SPL and due to the fact the sub has a rather underpowered amp so for crazy car stereo archetype SPLs the distortion is of no surprise when the amp is being driven to it's limits. I know they are working on a new plate-amp that's around 600W I believe. For my installs I don't believe the distortion at high SPLs is a problem as I add more subs if this is needed and my user base isn't into 20Hz at 100db... This is teenage car stereo freq/SPLs for morons IMHO... PSS If Ikka (20 something car stereo archetype) tested at a reasonable SPL then he would have found the rythmik has LESS distortion period at any frequency but compaints at 100db 20hz having distortion is just retarded IMHO The Finnish tests by Ikka included distortion tests at 90, 95, 100, and 105 dB's from 10-100Hz. I simply chose the 100 level to give what I would consider minimum HT performance. At 90dB's and 10% the Rythmik hit 20Hz while the HSU hit 14Hz, again better low extension performance. 10% is one of the common distortion level to test subs. As I mentioned the Rythmik should be "great" with music but not as good for HT IMO. In fact, the Rythmik's distortion level at higher frequencies were lower than the HSU. I only make my comments persuant to your comment that the " Rythmik is better." I wanted Bridgehead to know that overall I thought from my research that the HSU is a very good sub for music and especially for HT if he in fact goes that way. My comments go along with other brands and models of subs that are highly recommended and hyped on forums. I say hyped because many overlook their low frequency deficiencies. I am talking about the smaller box subs or even the mini cube style subs. The smaller subs are very impressive at first listen especially at other than the lower frequencies. The smaller of these subs like the mini cube types must offset their small enclosure/inherent lack of low extension, high output and high distortion with compensations like, very high power, heavy magnets and very long excursion drivers. Look at the mini subs from Sunfire for example. Many rave about their little Sunfire True Awesome Sub having 2700 watts! The implication is that somehow that must mean that the Sunfire will outperform the SVS PB12-Plus sub with 525 watts at about half the price of the Sunfire. Not a chance in hell! The huge power is to try and offset the inherent drawbacks in a small enclosure sub. The same is true of other larger but still relatively small subs like the Rythmik (note I mentioned the cabinet volume) and the 1500 watt F112 JL Audio for example. A recent review testing three large convention box size subs with three of the smaller subs included the SVS PB12-Plus and the JL F112. The SVS was clearly the top performer of all six subs including the smaller JL sub (about twice the price). I'm not in any way slamming the mini or small subs. There is certainly a place for them. However, go to the SVS site and read carefully the literature on their conventional large sub the PB12 Plus versus their smaller SB12 plus. They mention the performance differences due to the enclosure size. The smaller subs are great for those (actually lots of folks) who have space limitations and need a small footprint. For the size of their enclosures the performance can be impressive. I just want folks to know that for best performance to look at large subs, either sealed or ported if they can handle the size and weight. PS: Ilkka states in the review on the Rythmik: "..........The upper end stays really clean even when pushed really hard, but when listening to material with lots of high amplitude low frequencies (HT use), you will start to hear some amp clipping noises (ticking, crackling) at certain point. In my small room this was around 102-105 dBC measured around 2.5 meters from the subwoofer. The subwoofer will still go louder, but not without these noises. They can be hard to hear when other speakers are blasting, but if you turn them off, you will notice when the subwoofer starts to overload. Brian decided not to use any amp limiters, which helps to preserve the maximum dynamic capability of the amp. But as you can see from the THD graph, distortion grows pretty large below 30 - 40 Hz when pushed hard..........If one wants to match the clean (no overloading noises) output in 20 - 30 Hz range with the Monolith, one needs two of the 12" kits or one of the 15" kits (estimate since I haven't measured the 15" kit). The 15" kit should be around 3 - 5 dB louder than a single 12" kit. I would recommend using a 4 cu ft box with the 15" kit for higher deep bass sensitivity. I would recommend this as a minimum configuration for a home theater use, especially if you want to use higher than medium listening levels..........." damn . . impressive array of knowledge. for a nutter, you sure do know a lot about audio . . ;D |
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Post by solidstate on Nov 1, 2009 17:54:12 GMT -5
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Post by strindl on Nov 1, 2009 23:30:43 GMT -5
I've been a proponent of using surround decoding of one sort or another since the mid 70's and have experienced the huge advance in technology that makes surround listening so music better as the technology advances.
The first surround decoder I tried was the Dynaco Quadapter. It was inexpensive, and totally passive..no electric cord to plug in. It worked surprisingly well for the time.
Next came the first use of digital processing for surround in an Advent 500 Soundspace control. It was 800 bucks in about 1978 but it was hugely better at getting a realistic surround effect from a two channel source.
From there I moved up to another benchmark product..the Yamaha DSP-1. That cost a grand in the mid 80's. It also allowed customization of the soundfield effects as well as pre set sound environments derived from measuring the reflected sound in actual concert venues.,.from small clubs to large concert halls.
After that, it was the Lexicon CP-3 plus. That was almost 3 grand and included a high quality DAC and digital inputs.
In 2000 I switched to a pre amp processor..the Harmon Kardon Signature 2.0. Another big advancement in sound quality. In February, i bought a new generation product..the Integra DHC-9.9 that added Dolby Pro Logic IIx for the first time in my system. That does an exceptionally fine job of creating the proper spatial properties for music listening. I use an Outlaw 990 that also includes the pro logic IIx decoding in my living room.
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