gelinas
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DTS>Dolby
Posts: 57
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Post by gelinas on Mar 26, 2010 7:38:15 GMT -5
I am excited, won't get to listen to it till tomorrow as I need to re-organize my whole tv stand. I have put the amp in its new home, and let me tell you, the stand is not happy...
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gelinas
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DTS>Dolby
Posts: 57
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Post by gelinas on Mar 31, 2010 11:38:43 GMT -5
I have not been able to do much critical listening since I've installed the emotiva. I'm looking forward to watching a blu ray in the near future to give the amp a workout. In everyday tv watching there is little noticable difference. This may be because the audio is not that detailed or challenging...I really don't know.
So far I have not heard the HUGE improvement that many others have enjoyed. I think it does sound a bit clearer/more effortless but that may also be a bit of the placebo affect.
I guess more listening and time will tell how satisfied I am with the amp upgrade, but so far, the improvements are slight.
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 1, 2010 12:00:12 GMT -5
So far I have not heard the HUGE improvement that many others have enjoyed. I think it does sound a bit clearer/more effortless but that may also be a bit of the placebo affect. gelinas, if you ever do hear that HUGE improvement, let me know; I'll bring over a blindfold and switch cables for you, it'll fix it back to no difference at all. I hate to be the lone dissent here, but simply changing from one adequate, low-distortion, solid-state amplifier to another one that can be driven even further is not going to make a difference, unless you drive it further. There can be very minute differences if your new amplifier has a different sonic signature or your previous amplifier had significant crosstalk or distortion of which you were unaware. There may also be differences depending on the sensitivity and the quality of your speakers. If you have an extremely revealing speaker, like B&W's for example, you can hear more of that distortion when you listen than not. The irony of what I'm saying is that I think the amplifier is one of the most important pieces in the stack, and I can certainly hear differences when doing critical listening between different amplifiers, but it is not "night and day" "huge impact" "my god I shat myself!" difference, unless it's a pretty low-quality amp vs. a super-high-quality amp. I am happy to assist (within geographic limitations) anyone that thinks they can, by providing a nice, clean towel for a blindfold and moving the cables for them. You'll also find general sentiments in different pockets of individuals. Generally, here at the Emo Lounge, AVR = bad, evil, crap, sound sucks, throw it out, my god you did NOT get one of those!?!?, and Dedicated (esp. Emotiva) amp = heaven, nirvana, all things good, you have seen the light, never going back, nirvana, nectar of the nobs. Over at AVS Forums, in general, you'll hear AVR = same as dedicated, no difference, you'll NEVER hear it, you're dumb for even comparing, just stick with AVR, amps do nothing unless you're powering a PA system, etc. The reality is, as usual, right in between. If you take 2 Emotiva monoblock amplifiers and put them against a Pioneer 811s receiver, my mother and grandmother could pick out the difference, blindfolded, eating a bowl of Bob's cereal he had for breakfast, crunching, smacking and slurping the milk. If you take a mid-to-high-end Denon/Onkyo AVR and put it against a UPA-2, we might be able to hear some differences, in a well-treated room, listening to a reference DAC with reference quality recordings, going back-and-forth, A/B'ing, trying different cables, changing the room treatment, turning on and off the lights, and drinking Jolt. Maybe, might - hear a subtle difference. Now, if you drive the AVR to clipping at 120 watts and start to lose your hearing, you'll hear distortion, and the UPA-2 will hum right along. If all you're doing is watching TV and movies, I don't think you're going to EVER hear a difference. Again, if you do, try a blindfold, and have someone else swap wires for you, it'll fix the problem. There are certainly things to be said for high quality amplification with hard-to-drive speakers, low-level listening, etc., where that minuscule difference can really matter to critical listeners. Otherwise, we're all just enjoying knowing we could drive it harder, faster, longer, than our lowly brethren still using their silly AVR's. BTW - if you go read my review of my new Sonus Faber Toy Towers in the New Gear section, they are being driven by a Denon AVR-3310ci, no external amplification. If you want to spend $700-$1000 or more on something, and be BLOWN AWAY, upgrade your speakers (assuming that we're taking cost of originals + $700-1000 = $2000-$3000 speakers).
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Post by monkumonku on Apr 1, 2010 12:09:53 GMT -5
So far I have not heard the HUGE improvement that many others have enjoyed. I think it does sound a bit clearer/more effortless but that may also be a bit of the placebo affect. gelinas, if you ever do hear that HUGE improvement, let me know; I'll bring over a blindfold and switch cables for you, it'll fix it back to no difference at all. I hate to be the lone dissent here, but simply changing from one adequate, low-distortion, solid-state amplifier to another one that can be driven even further is not going to make a difference, unless you drive it further. There can be very minute differences if your new amplifier has a different sonic signature or your previous amplifier had significant crosstalk or distortion of which you were unaware. There may also be differences depending on the sensitivity and the quality of your speakers. If you have an extremely revealing speaker, like B&W's for example, you can hear more of that distortion when you listen than not. The irony of what I'm saying is that I think the amplifier is one of the most important pieces in the stack, and I can certainly hear differences when doing critical listening between different amplifiers, but it is not "night and day" "huge impact" "my god I shat myself!" difference, unless it's a pretty low-quality amp vs. a super-high-quality amp. I am happy to assist (within geographic limitations) anyone that thinks they can, by providing a nice, clean towel for a blindfold and moving the cables for them. You'll also find general sentiments in different pockets of individuals. Generally, here at the Emo Lounge, AVR = bad, evil, crap, sound sucks, throw it out, my god you did NOT get one of those!?!?, and Dedicated (esp. Emotiva) amp = heaven, nirvana, all things good, you have seen the light, never going back, nirvana, nectar of the nobs. Over at AVS Forums, in general, you'll hear AVR = same as dedicated, no difference, you'll NEVER hear it, you're dumb for even comparing, just stick with AVR, amps do nothing unless you're powering a PA system, etc. The reality is, as usual, right in between. If you take 2 Emotiva monoblock amplifiers and put them against a Pioneer 811s receiver, my mother and grandmother could pick out the difference, blindfolded, eating a bowl of Bob's cereal he had for breakfast, crunching, smacking and slurping the milk. If you take a mid-to-high-end Denon/Onkyo AVR and put it against a UPA-2, we might be able to hear some differences, in a well-treated room, listening to a reference DAC with reference quality recordings, going back-and-forth, A/B'ing, trying different cables, changing the room treatment, turning on and off the lights, and drinking Jolt. Maybe, might - hear a subtle difference. Now, if you drive the AVR to clipping at 120 watts and start to lose your hearing, you'll hear distortion, and the UPA-2 will hum right along. If all you're doing is watching TV and movies, I don't think you're going to EVER hear a difference. Again, if you do, try a blindfold, and have someone else swap wires for you, it'll fix the problem. There are certainly things to be said for high quality amplification with hard-to-drive speakers, low-level listening, etc., where that minuscule difference can really matter to critical listeners. Otherwise, we're all just enjoying knowing we could drive it harder, faster, longer, than our lowly brethren still using their silly AVR's. BTW - if you go read my review of my new Sonus Faber Toy Towers in the New Gear section, they are being driven by a Denon AVR-3310ci, no external amplification. If you want to spend $700-$1000 or more on something, and be BLOWN AWAY, upgrade your speakers (assuming that we're taking cost of originals + $700-1000 = $2000-$3000 speakers). What I find odd is when someone changes the amp from one pretty good or decent one to something that is supposed to be better and then remarks on how they can now hear things in recordings that they didn't even know where there before when using the old amp. Can the old amp have been that bad? I mean, I would think that both amps would have amplified the signal. Maybe it sounds a little different from one to the other but you should still be able to hear it on both..
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Post by Mr. Ben on Apr 1, 2010 13:22:31 GMT -5
I have never listened to the XPA-5 or UPA-5. Of the current generation of Emotiva amps, I've only heard the XPA-2. That said, I wouldn't expect much difference in the sound between the different models. They're all the same basic design, same components, just scaled up or down to different outputs and number of channels (with the possible exception of the XPA-1). I do however know that different amps can sound very different. I've tried six different amps from five different manufacturers in my 2-channel setup, and they all had their strengths and weaknesses, some of which I believe were significant. Still, as Bill says, upgrading your speakers (and the source components, IMHO) will be much more noticeable than upgrading your amp.
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 1, 2010 13:29:28 GMT -5
I have never listened to the XPA-5 or UPA-5. Of the current generation of Emotiva amps, I've only heard the XPA-2. That said, I wouldn't expect much difference in the sound between the different models. They're all the same basic design, same components, just scaled up or down to different outputs and number of channels (with the possible exception of the XPA-1). I do however know that different amps can sound very different. I've tried six different amps from five different manufacturers in my 2-channel setup, and they all had their strengths and weaknesses, some of which I believe were significant. Still, as Bill says, upgrading your speakers (and the source components, IMHO) will be much more noticeable than upgrading your amp. Agreed. There are sonic signatures of amps that make some sound thin, some have more bass, some overly-accentuate mid-range, etc. These are those subtle differences that can certainly be perceived in critical, 2-channel listening. For home theater (HT), as long as the amp has enough power, you're generally good and will not hear differences. The major benefit with higher quality amps in HT is that ability to go low to high to low again, quickly, and really deliver the kick from a huge and sudden punch or boom - that's that dynamics thing. I also agree that source components can be very key. I'm actually specifically using the 3310ci because Denon put an AKM DAC in it, and I just generally really like the cleanliness of their signature sound. It's interesting to me how close it is to Cirrus, yet so far away. They are both very clean, but the Cirrus seems harsh to me and the AKM seems sooo smooth.
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Apr 1, 2010 20:07:50 GMT -5
The Denon AVR-3310CI A/V Receiver using an AKM DAC? Hmmm... I tought the Dacs were the TI BB PCM-1791 x 4 (stereo Dacs). And I also tought that I knew all of those things already! I guess you know some I don't.
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 1, 2010 20:29:38 GMT -5
The Denon AVR-3310CI A/V Receiver using an AKM DAC? Hmmm... I tought the Dacs were the TI BB PCM-1791 x 4 (stereo Dacs). And I also tought that I knew all of those things already! <grin> Denon used multi-channel Analog Devices DACs in their lower-end stuff last year, like the 2309, instead of multiple, discrete stereo DACs. The 3310 is technically the upgrade to the 2309, not the 3808. So, the 4310 is the 3808 upgrade. For the 4310CI they used the PCM-1791A 2 x 8 channels. Since the 3310CI is in the 23xx class, they went with a multi-channel DAC, but for whatever reason, they moved off of Analog Devices' ADAU1328 multi-channel DAC, which did end up in the 2310CI, and put in an AKM AK4358 multi-channel DAC. The 43/4810CI both get the TI/Burr Brown PCM-1791A. The 3310CI is a little anomaly in the middle of the lineup that makes me quite happy. The AKM is a programmable DAC with THD+N: -94dB DR, S/N: 112dB and High Tolerance to Clock Jitter - the latter being key for a device that plays FLAC files directly from a USB drive - which is exclusively how I utilizes this device. When you consider the PCM-1791A has S/N: 113dB and THD+N: from -94dB to -90dB as a stereo DSD/PCM DAC in comparison to the AKM's 8 channels of DSD/PCM DAC, and considering the smoothness of AKM's overall analog delivery, the AKM DAC in the 3310CI is sort of a best kept secret.
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Apr 1, 2010 21:21:11 GMT -5
Thanks Bill for keeping me up to date. And you're right too, the 3310 replaced the 2809 (not the 2309 as you just mentioned). Oh, and that AKM DAC (AK4358, 8-channel single chip DAC) nice (in the 3310), but the power amp section = poor (not recommended at all with 4-Ohm speakers). Also the 3310 has only one DSP chip (the Analog Devices Sharc 21367 chipset), meaning not much processing power. That is also why it has only Audyssey MultEQ Room Correction (only 6 positions, with less resolution in the lower bass frequencies). Oh!, one more thing Bill, the 4310 does indeed use the TI BB PCM-1791a Dacs, but only four of them total. These are stereo Dacs, one for each two channels, for a total of eight channels. And the 4310 add one more DSP chip (same Sharc 21367 as in the 3310) for a total of two. Just in case you were not aware of this fact. * And the 4810 is using six of these same Dacs, for a total of twelve channels (9.3). And the 4810 has three Sharc 21367 DSP chips (so one more that te 4310, and two more than the 3310). I'm just sayin'.
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 1, 2010 22:20:43 GMT -5
Bob, agreed on all counts, and yes, I meant the 2809, a slip of the mind on that one. As far as processing, I'm not really using it. And for amplification, it's just running 2 channel for me right now, and it sounds pretty good.
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Apr 2, 2010 3:16:16 GMT -5
^ Good to go.
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 2, 2010 11:42:20 GMT -5
Sorry about the 2 x 8 channels thing. I should have put 2 x 4 channels equaling 8 total analog channels. I used (extremely misleading) wording from Denon's web site and should have cleaned it up. I've actually been cleaning up their site. I have sent in over 10 corrections now. It's finally starting to reflect the product's actual chips & features.
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Apr 3, 2010 2:32:10 GMT -5
Did you really?
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 3, 2010 2:59:43 GMT -5
Yep. I've also corrected Emo's site at least 5 or 6 times now. At Denon I corresponded with a responsive and polite individual: J. McGuinness Manager Strategic Programs & Customer Support He had the corrections done as best he could. For example, if you look at the Detailed Specifications section of the 3310ci, you'll find "24-bit/192-kHz DACs - Analog Devices AKM Semiconductor 24-bit/192-kHz AK4358". There was no generic "DAC" option, it was Burr Brown or Analog Devices, and it has AKM, so they put it on the Analog Device line. www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/4972.asp The 4310ci used to be listed as not having HD Radio. The 4810ci used to say 96/24 AD Converters instead of 192khz. All sorts of little things like that were out of place but are now corrected. Wanna see a broken, never-should-have-seen-the-world Emotiva page? ;D emotiva.com/ultra_subs10.html There used to be two pages for the Ultra subs, the 10 existed, the 12 was a broken link altogether. The quick fix was to just link everything to the Ultra Subs page for both the 10 & 12 and be done with it. Not that I notice these things...
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Apr 3, 2010 3:44:19 GMT -5
This is cool Bill. I'm also the type that talk with head division people from various major manufacturers here in Canada and also in the USA. I did give some recommendations in the past to some higher staff people, even Denon too, lol. I don't write their names as they don't write mine and they tend to simply ignore good advice in general (but with some Denon people that I talk too, and Pionner Elite people also, we had some good conversations; quite technical sometimes). Anywoo, I'm very straight forward, and I usually say what I have to say once or twice, but that's it (in the phone or over the internet, people simply cannot put the true dimension of the person to who they are really talking to). And the technologies are so fast now that there is no time to waist on yesterday. Yesterday's mistakes are quick forgotten (but not for me). The people I truly admire are the ones that are honest and improving on past mistakes. No one's perfect, but trying to is the right direction. Well this is great that you're doing your part Bill, we need more people like you, and I'm glad that I got to know you just a little bit more. Regards, Bob
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2010 4:09:18 GMT -5
What I find odd is when someone changes the amp from one pretty good or decent one to something that is supposed to be better and then remarks on how they can now hear things in recordings that they didn't even know where there before when using the old amp. Can the old amp have been that bad? I mean, I would think that both amps would have amplified the signal. Maybe it sounds a little different from one to the other but you should still be able to hear it on both.. I believe there is a deceptively simple explanation for this. This is my own conclusion that I have never heard expressed by anyone else. I feel that much of the perceived difference might be non-existent. I'm not saying there might not be some actual audible improvement. However, my point is that the difference is highly exaggerated in the listeners mind. When one listens to a new amp (or other components that normally might have subtle differences), suddenly the listener is very intent with 100% concentration on the music while evaluating the new amp. This peaked concentration brings out subtleties that the listener did not notice before. They were in fact present previously but now with his heightened awareness due to the intense listening they now become apparent and audible in his enhanced conscious mind and hearing.
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Apr 3, 2010 4:42:57 GMT -5
I am excited, won't get to listen to it till tomorrow as I need to re-organize my whole tv stand. I have put the amp in its new home, and let me tell you, the stand is not happy... "I'm so excited, I ...". Reminds me that song from 'Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen', you know when the yellow robot (Yellow Camaro or TransAm? anyway) is starting to sing that one after being grounded into the garage, remember? * That song was originally from 'The Pointer Sisters' if I remember correctly. 80s song (1984).
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Apr 3, 2010 4:46:44 GMT -5
What I find odd is when someone changes the amp from one pretty good or decent one to something that is supposed to be better and then remarks on how they can now hear things in recordings that they didn't even know where there before when using the old amp. Can the old amp have been that bad? I mean, I would think that both amps would have amplified the signal. Maybe it sounds a little different from one to the other but you should still be able to hear it on both.. I believe there is a deceptively simple explanation for this. This is my own conclusion that I have never heard expressed by anyone else. I feel that much of the perceived difference might be non-existent. I'm not saying there might not be some actual audible improvement. However, my point is that the difference is highly exaggerated in the listeners mind. When one listens to a new amp (or other components that normally might have subtle differences), suddenly the listener is very intent with 100% concentration on the music while evaluating the new amp. This peaked concentration brings out subtleties that the listener did not notice before. They were in fact present previously but now with his heightened awareness due to the intense listening they now become apparent and audible in his enhanced conscious mind and hearing. Exactemente, right on Chuck, you just hit it!
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DYohn
Emo VIPs
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Post by DYohn on Apr 3, 2010 10:26:19 GMT -5
What I find odd is when someone changes the amp from one pretty good or decent one to something that is supposed to be better and then remarks on how they can now hear things in recordings that they didn't even know where there before when using the old amp. Can the old amp have been that bad? I mean, I would think that both amps would have amplified the signal. Maybe it sounds a little different from one to the other but you should still be able to hear it on both.. I believe there is a deceptively simple explanation for this. This is my own conclusion that I have never heard expressed by anyone else. I feel that much of the perceived difference might be non-existent. I'm not saying there might not be some actual audible improvement. However, my point is that the difference is highly exaggerated in the listeners mind. When one listens to a new amp (or other components that normally might have subtle differences), suddenly the listener is very intent with 100% concentration on the music while evaluating the new amp. This peaked concentration brings out subtleties that the listener did not notice before. They were in fact present previously but now with his heightened awareness due to the intense listening they now become apparent and audible in his enhanced conscious mind and hearing. Yes, it's called the placebo effect and it's very real. It does not mean that different amps cannot sound different, as they most certainly can, but that often subtle differences are made to seem much larger than they are by user expectations.
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Post by artiek on Apr 3, 2010 11:15:05 GMT -5
What I find odd is when someone changes the amp from one pretty good or decent one to something that is supposed to be better and then remarks on how they can now hear things in recordings that they didn't even know where there before when using the old amp. Can the old amp have been that bad? I mean, I would think that both amps would have amplified the signal. Maybe it sounds a little different from one to the other but you should still be able to hear it on both.. I believe there is a deceptively simple explanation for this. This is my own conclusion that I have never heard expressed by anyone else. I feel that much of the perceived difference might be non-existent. I'm not saying there might not be some actual audible improvement. However, my point is that the difference is highly exaggerated in the listeners mind. When one listens to a new amp (or other components that normally might have subtle differences), suddenly the listener is very intent with 100% concentration on the music while evaluating the new amp. This peaked concentration brings out subtleties that the listener did not notice before. They were in fact present previously but now with his heightened awareness due to the intense listening they now become apparent and audible in his enhanced conscious mind and hearing. I don't know about that Chuckie. I've heard Free Bird hundreds, if not thousands of times, over the years. I never heard a string section in there, did you? When I played it with the Souls I was shocked to hear it in there. I can't believe I never noticed it before because I just wasn't paying attention, I think it's that amps are more detailed. That's only one example of many, but it was definitely the most astounding.
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