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Post by hogweed on Mar 8, 2010 22:12:04 GMT -5
Unless you're sure the UMC can decode DSD, if you can't hear the difference then it's possible it doesn't decode DSD. You're not getting DSD from the Oppo just because it's set that way. If the Oppo doesn't detect that ability in the UMC, it won't output DSD and really does default to PCM no matter what is set.
If you don't believe me, try using the analog outputs and send your HDMI straight to your display with the display off. It will start in DSD but if you turn on the display, music will stop and restart in PCM. You should hear the difference. The other way to tell is like I said, use the volume on the Oppo remote. In dsd, it will either be muted or at full volume, but pcm will have volume control.
I haven't seen anything confirming UMC decodes DSD. I don't have one yet to test
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Post by BillBauman on Mar 8, 2010 23:03:11 GMT -5
red5ive, what are your sources for this superior musical experience, and how are they connected? Uh ok, I suppose I did use the word superior, even if I do a Ctrl + F on this thread and that word first appears in a post after mine.  For CD/SACD Oppo BDP-80 set to DSD for SACD, both over HDMI And laugh at me all you want, for high res (192 kHz) I'm using a PC with a built-in ADI AD1988B HD audio over coax with Flac and DTS stereo material, and for 176.4 kHz I'm streaming to a PS3 slim using PS3 media server also with the same FLAC/DTS material and the PS3 doing 176.4 kHz conversion. I'm not laughing at your or anything, I was just asking how you were connected. Since you were using all digital connections, what you were listening to was the DAC in the UMC-1. I haven't heard the BDP-980 DAC, but it's also a Cirrus, so I'd expect it to be similar to the UMC-1. For your computer stuff, the DAC doesn't matter either, as you're just decoding FLAC to PCM over SPDIF to the DAC in the UMC-1, so it should all sound pretty similar. I would expect, if you could get a high quality analog connection to from your PC to the UMC-1 that things would sound differently since you'd be using a nice Analog Devices DAC for the conversion. It was just an information question for me. Thanks for your response. It seems to me that the vast majority of people here that are saying the UMC-1 has really great sound are using its internal DAC for that experience. It's surprising to me, but at some point I'll have a chance to do my own comparisons. |
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Post by BillBauman on Mar 8, 2010 23:04:14 GMT -5
hogweed, the UMC-1 absolutely cannot decode DSD. I have tried it at a friend's place, we had to set his BDP-83 to PCM out for SACD material.
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Post by red5ive on Mar 8, 2010 23:06:33 GMT -5
Ok, well as I said I've read nothing on the subject where the UMC is concerned. I still have the Oppo connected both analog (stereo only, L/R/Sub) and HDMI because I initially used it in analog mode when I got the UMC. I had set the levels on the Oppo with an SPL to match HDMI as I did a comparison way back when. Oppo was set to PCM, and I had two inputs configured on the UMC - one for analog, other for HDMI. So it was simple to change the inputs back & forth, though the comparison was always done HDMI --> Analog as going the other direction took a few moments for audio lock (for obvious reasons). I couldn't tell a difference then, but I stuck with analog. I had it like this for a couple of weeks until the FW on the UMC released, at which point I also updated the FW on the Oppo. After resetting back to factory defaults on the Oppo, I was too lazy to set the levels again for analog so I decided to just stick with HDMI figuring I couldn't tell the difference anyway. It was then that I tried setting it to DSD, and still I couldn't tell the difference. So, I guess then this means that analog from the Oppo is also not the full DSD bandwidth converted to analog PCM since I also cannot tell the difference between analog and HDMI with HDMI set to DSD or PCM. I'm really confused now because I have CD and SACD versions of Diana Krall's Love Scenes, and the SACD version on the Oppo is ridiculously better than the redbook.
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Post by hogweed on Mar 8, 2010 23:13:44 GMT -5
That's what I thought, Bill. Doesn't really matter to me because I plan to use the analog outs on my BDP 83SE. Thought I'd try to clear up the obvious confusion on that issue. Anyone that has SACD's and the Oppo really should at least try DSD through the analog outs and then determine for themselves whether there's a difference.
Hey Red.. That's one of my questions when I get the UMC. If the Oppo detects the hdmi output, it will default to the pcm on the analog outs. I had my hdmi in a switch and even though on a different input, I get pcm. On my projector, I tried using separate inputs there. As long as the projector was off, I'd get DSD. As soon as I turned it on, music would stop and go to PCM. I may have to run video straight to the projector when I get the UMC, but that's a sacrefice I'm willing to make myself.
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Post by red5ive on Mar 8, 2010 23:29:17 GMT -5
Uh ok, I suppose I did use the word superior, even if I do a Ctrl + F on this thread and that word first appears in a post after mine. For CD/SACD Oppo BDP-80 set to DSD for SACD, both over HDMI And laugh at me all you want, for high res (192 kHz) I'm using a PC with a built-in ADI AD1988B HD audio over coax with Flac and DTS stereo material, and for 176.4 kHz I'm streaming to a PS3 slim using PS3 media server also with the same FLAC/DTS material and the PS3 doing 176.4 kHz conversion. I'm not laughing at your or anything, I was just asking how you were connected. Since you were using all digital connections, what you were listening to was the DAC in the UMC-1. I haven't heard the BDP-980 DAC, but it's also a Cirrus, so I'd expect it to be similar to the UMC-1. For your computer stuff, the DAC doesn't matter either, as you're just decoding FLAC to PCM over SPDIF to the DAC in the UMC-1, so it should all sound pretty similar. I would expect, if you could get a high quality analog connection to from your PC to the UMC-1 that things would sound differently since you'd be using a nice Analog Devices DAC for the conversion. It was just an information question for me. Thanks for your response. It seems to me that the vast majority of people here that are saying the UMC-1 has really great sound are using its internal DAC for that experience. It's surprising to me, but at some point I'll have a chance to do my own comparisons. I was just giving you a hard time, sorry. I can really care less if you did laugh at me  . In any case, yes, I'm well aware that I'm using the DACs in the UMC-1, but now somehow I'm losing sight as to why that's significant as I never indicated or intended that I was performing an analog comparison. If the concern is between my praise of the UMC over the 886 with music passed digitally, I wasn't aware of any cardinal rule that comparisons should be done using a device dac that was external to both units (whether in a player or a standalone dac) - my point being that if the UMC handles digital sources better, then that is significant. |
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Post by red5ive on Mar 9, 2010 1:17:08 GMT -5
Hey Red.. That's one of my questions when I get the UMC. If the Oppo detects the hdmi output, it will default to the pcm on the analog outs. I had my hdmi in a switch and even though on a different input, I get pcm. On my projector, I tried using separate inputs there. As long as the projector was off, I'd get DSD. As soon as I turned it on, music would stop and go to PCM. I may have to run video straight to the projector when I get the UMC, but that's a sacrefice I'm willing to make myself. Thanks, hogweed, I missed that part of your post on the top of this page. I do want to note that I always had the display off when playing over analog because I only had the the analog RCA cables connected via the analog 7.1 inputs with no video, and I absolutely could not tolerate having the UMC blue screen staring at me when playing CDs & SACDs. For that matter, I generally turn off my display anyway when playing from physical media sources since the readout on the player is sufficient. I know for certain I was turning off the display when playing music through the UMC-1 as I reported to Emotiva before the firmware update that every time I turned off the monitor to listen to music, once turning it back on the UMC reverted to 480p. However - and maybe this is where the issue was - I know for sure that I would power everything on first, get the music going, then turn off the monitor. Perhaps starting the music first before turning off the monitor is a factor in the Oppo switching to downgraded PCM? In any case, thanks for clarifying that. I will definitely try analog with the HDMI cable completely disconnected on the Oppo. |
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Post by hogweed on Mar 9, 2010 1:30:56 GMT -5
I found when I turned off the display after I started music I'd have to stop and restart to get to dsd. I'm looking forward to reading your impressions later.
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Post by red5ive on Mar 9, 2010 1:37:20 GMT -5
I found when I turned off the display after I started music I'd have to stop and restart to get to dsd. I'm looking forward to reading your impressions later. That has to be it, then. I will definitely give it a go tomorrow since everyone in the house is asleep now.  I'll let you know. Thanks again. |
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markd
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 182
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Post by markd on Mar 9, 2010 6:24:41 GMT -5
Hi red-
You said you had no issues with your DVR- what model and service is it?
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Post by red5ive on Mar 9, 2010 11:13:50 GMT -5
Hi red- You said you had no issues with your DVR- what model and service is it? Sorry about that. I could have sworn I mentioned it. It's a Motorola QIP6416 with Verizon FIOS service. I'll note that this particular DVR had handshaking issues with my Yamaha RX-V1800 and would randomly throw HDCP messages. It has had no hiccups though with my 886 and the UMC-1. |
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markd
Emo VIPs
Posts: 182
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Post by markd on Mar 9, 2010 12:45:53 GMT -5
Excellent! That is is the same unit I have- well, mine has a -2 on the end- gives me confidence that that piece (at least) of my system will work correctly with the UMC!
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Post by BillBauman on Mar 9, 2010 14:38:37 GMT -5
That's what I thought, Bill. Doesn't really matter to me because I plan to use the analog outs on my BDP 83SE. Thought I'd try to clear up the obvious confusion on that issue. Anyone that has SACD's and the Oppo really should at least try DSD through the analog outs and then determine for themselves whether there's a difference. Hey Red.. That's one of my questions when I get the UMC. If the Oppo detects the hdmi output, it will default to the pcm on the analog outs. I had my hdmi in a switch and even though on a different input, I get pcm. On my projector, I tried using separate inputs there. As long as the projector was off, I'd get DSD. As soon as I turned it on, music would stop and go to PCM. I may have to run video straight to the projector when I get the UMC, but that's a sacrefice I'm willing to make myself. hogweed, I don't follow what you're saying here. I thought maybe you'd just had a typo, but you said PCM on analog as well as DSD through the analog outs. DSD and PCM are both digital formats and cannot be sent through your analog outs. Once you've converted either DSD or PCM to the analog realm, it's just, well, analog - sound. While still in the digital realm, either/or can only be sent via a digital connection. |
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Post by BillBauman on Mar 9, 2010 14:42:23 GMT -5
I'm not laughing at your or anything, I was just asking how you were connected. Since you were using all digital connections, what you were listening to was the DAC in the UMC-1. I haven't heard the BDP-980 DAC, but it's also a Cirrus, so I'd expect it to be similar to the UMC-1. For your computer stuff, the DAC doesn't matter either, as you're just decoding FLAC to PCM over SPDIF to the DAC in the UMC-1, so it should all sound pretty similar. I would expect, if you could get a high quality analog connection to from your PC to the UMC-1 that things would sound differently since you'd be using a nice Analog Devices DAC for the conversion. It was just an information question for me. Thanks for your response. It seems to me that the vast majority of people here that are saying the UMC-1 has really great sound are using its internal DAC for that experience. It's surprising to me, but at some point I'll have a chance to do my own comparisons. I was just giving you a hard time, sorry. I can really care less if you did laugh at me . In any case, yes, I'm well aware that I'm using the DACs in the UMC-1, but now somehow I'm losing sight as to why that's significant as I never indicated or intended that I was performing an analog comparison. If the concern is between my praise of the UMC over the 886 with music passed digitally, I wasn't aware of any cardinal rule that comparisons should be done using a device dac that was external to both units (whether in a player or a standalone dac) - my point being that if the UMC handles digital sources better, then that is significant. Oh, give me a hard time all you want. I thought you were offended by something I'd said and I really didn't want that. There is no right or wrong way to "test" or "compare" the sound, I'm just very interested in the UMC-1's analog capabilities. That, and I'm intrigued by the relatively positive response to its relatively low-end internal DAC. Either this DAC has the magical sauce or is just the perfect balance of implementation, or it could just be the 'change' aspect of it or, well, who knows. At some point I'll get a chance to listen. I will say, it sounds like the Cirrus DAC on the UMC-1, and the overall implementation of the unit, is sound like it has an overall cleaner sound than the Onkyo implementation of their stuff. That would not come as any huge surprise, as, over time, I have increasingly felt as though my 885 is veiling the sound a bit. |
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Post by red5ive on Mar 9, 2010 16:04:33 GMT -5
I was just giving you a hard time, sorry. I can really care less if you did laugh at me . In any case, yes, I'm well aware that I'm using the DACs in the UMC-1, but now somehow I'm losing sight as to why that's significant as I never indicated or intended that I was performing an analog comparison. If the concern is between my praise of the UMC over the 886 with music passed digitally, I wasn't aware of any cardinal rule that comparisons should be done using a device dac that was external to both units (whether in a player or a standalone dac) - my point being that if the UMC handles digital sources better, then that is significant. Oh, give me a hard time all you want. I thought you were offended by something I'd said and I really didn't want that. There is no right or wrong way to "test" or "compare" the sound, I'm just very interested in the UMC-1's analog capabilities. That, and I'm intrigued by the relatively positive response to its relatively low-end internal DAC. Either this DAC has the magical sauce or is just the perfect balance of implementation, or it could just be the 'change' aspect of it or, well, who knows. At some point I'll get a chance to listen. I will say, it sounds like the Cirrus DAC on the UMC-1, and the overall implementation of the unit, is sound like it has an overall cleaner sound than the Onkyo implementation of their stuff. That would not come as any huge surprise, as, over time, I have increasingly felt as though my 885 is veiling the sound a bit. Understood, and my apologies if I came off like that. I hope my input didn't leave a negative impression on the 886's overall sound quality as that was not my intention. If my UMC-1 were taken away tomorrow I absolutely would not feel like I were stuck with an 886. The musical quality with the 886 from digital sources does not disappoint. Is there room for improvement with music? I believe so. But taking the perspective that the Onkyo pre-pros are marketed more for HT, it definitely shines in that department and does a sufficient job as a dual-role unit. I've also read on other forums that Onkyos are a bit muted or muffled - I might agree with that, but only where my comparison to the UMC is concerned. The 886 has otherwise outperformed even a flagship Yamaha AVR that I previously had in my setup, which retailed more than twice the price as what I paid for the 886. |
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Post by red5ive on Mar 9, 2010 17:46:47 GMT -5
Well, it's official. To signify that I've decided to keep my UMC, I just peeled the clear sticker off the display window. Man, the UMC sounds even BETTER now. |
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Post by hogweed on Mar 9, 2010 18:10:50 GMT -5
hogweed, I don't follow what you're saying here. I thought maybe you'd just had a typo, but you said PCM on analog as well as DSD through the analog outs. DSD and PCM are both digital formats and cannot be sent through your analog outs. Once you've converted either DSD or PCM to the analog realm, it's just, well, analog - sound. While still in the digital realm, either/or can only be sent via a digital connection.
Yes of course it's analog then. It's how it's converted from the original DSD to analog. Tha Oppo is unusual in that it can convert straight from DSD to analog. Most SACD players convert DSD to PCM and then analog. Yes it can also be sent from the Oppo in digital form where the conversion must happen in the processor. But the UMC can't convert DSD to analog so the Oppo converts to PCM and the UMC converts the PCM to analog.
Anyway, my bad.. It wasn't clear the way I wrote that.
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Post by loopinfool on Mar 9, 2010 21:01:49 GMT -5
Tha Oppo is unusual in that it can convert straight from DSD to analog. To further clarify... The Oppo BDP- 83 has separate analog stereo outputs with this feature. The Oppo BDP-80 that red5ive owns lacks this particular feature (for cost reasons). - LoopinFool |
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Post by red5ive on Mar 9, 2010 21:30:22 GMT -5
Tha Oppo is unusual in that it can convert straight from DSD to analog. To further clarify... The Oppo BDP- 83 has separate analog stereo outputs with this feature. The Oppo BDP-80 that red5ive owns lacks this particular feature (for cost reasons). - LoopinFool Correct, but it does at least support sacd over the multi-ch analog outs. I went over the manual to confirm this before I purchased. However, I'm still questioning if this is true after some of the advice I was given by hogweed, as I still can't tell much difference with analog to the UMC with the HDMI cable unplugged from the BDP80. But does it sound good? Well, it sounds excellent, and my comparisons with CD versions of some of my sacds were the same as I remember when making the same comparisons at my local dealer. I'm just a little confused now as to what's really happening since I can't really tell a difference if the Oppo is downgraded PCM when it detects the HDMI connection. This weekend I'll connect the Oppo to the 886, which supports DSD over HDMI, and do some comparisons with analog. On another note, I believe the Yamaha DVD-S1800 also only supports sacd over analog. |
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Post by hogweed on Mar 9, 2010 23:21:11 GMT -5
Loopinfool.. The dsd is on the m/ch outputs also. Not just stereo. If the 80 has the option for dsd then I would think it also applies to the m/ch analog. But i could be wrong. Don't really know about the 80
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. In any case, yes, I'm well aware that I'm using the DACs in the UMC-1, but now somehow I'm losing sight as to why that's significant as I never indicated or intended that I was performing an analog comparison. If the concern is between my praise of the UMC over the 886 with music passed digitally, I wasn't aware of any cardinal rule that comparisons should be done using a device dac that was external to both units (whether in a player or a standalone dac) - my point being that if the UMC handles digital sources better, then that is significant. 
I'll let you know.