Apple TV +DAC or ERC-1

[jraffety]

I'm planning to upgrade to an Emotiva setup as funds allow and looking for some feedback.

I have an Apple TV and all my CDs encoded with Lossless apple codec, this runs to receiver w/HDMI. I've noticed some shrillness and listening fatigue using this setup - but attributed much of it to my combo of cheap yamaha + Klipsch. However, I decided to pop a CD into the PS3 which is also connected to the receiver via HDMI and this sounded much better. More detail in the music and it lost the shrill fatiguing effect.

I did not expect to hear much difference in the lossless rip vs real CD. Both should be using the same DAC in the receiver.

Any one have an idea on why the CD would sound so much better? I was looking at the upcoming DAC from Emo to connect to the ATV, but I'm wondering if the ERC-1 would be a better sounding choice. Either way I'm considering pairing with a USP-1 and pair of UPA-1s for stereo listening.

[bigred7078]

Hm interesting...not sure why your getting the "Shrill" sound.


But honestly the ERC-1 and Apple TV are pretty different function wise.... If you like digital ease of use music listening then I say Apple TV plus the upcoming emotiva dac.

[hemster]

Differences in SQ can be attributed to different processing/conversion technology and algorithms between the CD and Apple codec. Different hardware components in use too.

While we expect the Emo DAC to sound great, we know that the ERC-1 does in fact sound great. Especially when paired with the USP-1 and UPA1s.

The expected wait for the DAC is the governing variable. Are you prepared to wait? Of course you can always get the ERC/USP and when the DAC is available, sell them. I expect they'll fetch decent prices.

Good luck and keep us posted on how you end up.

PS: bigred makes a good point about convenience of electronic music vs. using physical media/CDs..

[elwicksto]

don't know if you considered this or not, but did you have volume on apple tv @ maximum? if not, then lossless source is no longer lossless due to whatever digital volume adjustment algorithm they use. this would certainly change sound quality.

[jraffety]

Shrill is relative term I guess, but bottom line is I just want to turn it down. I thought it was the speaker / amp combo until I popped in the CD.

The digital convenience factor is certainly the driver for wanting to use the ATV, but with my current setup it just hurts to listen to at near reference volume. So I'm loading CDs now anyway. I'm not in a hurry and given enough time will probably try both the dac and erc-1, if they both sound good I'll stick with the digital, my fear is the ATV is somehow the root cause and the dac won't help. Like you said, going with the ERC and trying the dac when its available sounds reasonable.

I look for a volume setting on the ATV when I have a chance, I don't recall a volume setting but that would make a lot of sense if its cranked.

Thanks for the replies

[littlesaint]

Mar 12, 2010 12:59:33 GMT -5 jraffety said:

Shrill is relative term I guess, but bottom line is I just want to turn it down. I thought it was the speaker / amp combo until I popped in the CD.

The digital convenience factor is certainly the driver for wanting to use the ATV, but with my current setup it just hurts to listen to at near reference volume. So I'm loading CDs now anyway. I'm not in a hurry and given enough time will probably try both the dac and erc-1, if they both sound good I'll stick with the digital, my fear is the ATV is somehow the root cause and the dac won't help. Like you said, going with the ERC and trying the dac when its available sounds reasonable.

I look for a volume setting on the ATV when I have a chance, I don't recall a volume setting but that would make a lot of sense if its cranked.

Thanks for the replies

I have a very similar setup to yours. I have a Yammy v661 and Klipsch RF series speakers. An LPA-1 handles power. I use my Macbook via SPDIF to play ALAC and AAC files all the time, and don't really notice fatigue or a difference from my Oppo playing CDs. I really don't think you're hearing a difference in format (CD vs ALAC), but a difference in source devices. Maybe something about the PS3 just appeals to your ears more.

[jraffety]

Mar 12, 2010 13:16:02 GMT -5 littlesaint said:

I have a very similar setup to yours. I have a Yammy v661 and Klipsch RF series speakers. An LPA-1 handles power. I use my Macbook via SPDIF to play ALAC and AAC files all the time, and don't really notice fatigue or a difference from my Oppo playing CDs. I really don't think you're hearing a difference in format (CD vs ALAC), but a difference in source devices. Maybe something about the PS3 just appeals to your ears more.

Now that you mention it, in my office I have a mac pro with toslink to my old HTR-5740 and pair of RB-51s. I use this to play from Itunes the same files and it sounds great. Different setup but similar yammy and klipsch. I agree its not the format, but something about my setup is off.

[elwicksto]

Mar 12, 2010 12:59:33 GMT -5 jraffety said:

I look for a volume setting on the ATV when I have a chance, I don't recall a volume setting but that would make a lot of sense if its cranked.

i don't remember how to adjust the apple tv volume with its IR remote, but if you happen to be controlling it via apple's "remote" app on an iphone or ipod touch, then there is a volume slider right there. pretty sure there is also a slider on itunes if you control your apple tv thru that. good luck!

[jraffety]

Mar 12, 2010 13:51:15 GMT -5 elwicksto said:

Mar 12, 2010 12:59:33 GMT -5 jraffety said:

I look for a volume setting on the ATV when I have a chance, I don't recall a volume setting but that would make a lot of sense if its cranked.

i don't remember how to adjust the apple tv volume with its IR remote, but if you happen to be controlling it via apple's "remote" app on an iphone or ipod touch, then there is a volume slider right there. pretty sure there is also a slider on itunes if you control your apple tv thru that. good luck!

I checked settings and I have the music volume control set to "off". I was hoping that was the problem but doesn't seem to be it.

[elwicksto]

so... i don't have my umc-1 yet, but based upon some experimentation today on my denon receiver, i do think there is something wrong with the hdmi audio output on apple tv when lossless audio is being output. when i stream apple lossless from my mac mini server to my apple tv, i also hear something terribly wrong that could easily be described as a harshness or shrill. however, when i did same experiment using optical out on apple tv, it sounded ____much____ better.

[jraffety]

Apr 1, 2010 21:02:39 GMT -5 elwicksto said:

so... i don't have my umc-1 yet, but based upon some experimentation today on my denon receiver, i do think there is something wrong with the hdmi audio output on apple tv when lossless audio is being output. when i stream apple lossless from my mac mini server to my apple tv, i also hear something terribly wrong that could easily be described as a harshness or shrill. however, when i did same experiment using optical out on apple tv, it sounded ____much____ better.

Interesting, I didn't think to try optical. I'll give it a shot and see if I get same results.

[vincedog3]

I run .Aiff or .wav for critical listening. I think it is silly to use any kind of compression for my favorite music. I have ALC/MPG3 for background project noise so to speak. Using the vertical control portion of the ring allows volume adjustment assuming you are not running fixed. Ultimately of course the ERC-1 sounds way better. All discrete components vs. chip op amp in the Apple TV. I like them both, since they fill a need for my mood and listening habits.

[jraffety]

Apr 1, 2010 22:07:09 GMT -5 @vincedog3 said:

I run .Aiff or .wav for critical listening. I think it is silly to use any kind of compression for my favorite music. I have ALC/MPG3 for background project noise so to speak. Using the vertical control portion of the ring allows volume adjustment assuming you are not running fixed. Ultimately of course the ERC-1 sounds way better. All discrete components vs. chip op amp in the Apple TV. I like them both, since they fill a need for my mood and listening habits.

So are you saying you rip CD's to .Aiff or .wav ? Lossless compression doesn't change any of the information on the CD, just compresses the digital file to save disk space. Digital file compression is different than the low pass filter compression you get from mp3 type formats. In theory they should sound same as .wav, but can't say I've tried it. I have about 115Gb of lossless recordings that would be much larger in wav format, and shouldn't sound any different.

I would expect the ERC-1 to sound better, but I did expect lossless rips sent over hdmi as pcm from ATV to sound the same as physical cd played from ps3 as pcm over hdmi.

I do have the volume control on the ATV set to off and the PS3 volume set to 0. Trying the optical cable on ATV next.

[elwicksto]

Interesting, I didn't think to try optical. I'll give it a shot and see if I get same results.

cool - hope you have similar results! this has been bugging me!

(in the past, my ATV was playing 256kb AAC off the hard drive with hdmi out & i never had this issue. nowadays i've been streaming lossless, but it's always been either optical out to my main prepro (NAD until UMC-1 (until XMC-1 )) or optical out from airport express to my headphone dac. my atv system has been down for a while as i'm doing some construction, but i band-aided it all together today to try out my new ultra-12 & immediately noticed the shrill problem when using hdmi)

[Erwin.BE]

Apr 1, 2010 21:02:39 GMT -5 elwicksto said:

however, when i did same experiment using optical out on apple tv, it sounded ____much____ better.

When I bought my first Apple Express to stream to my receiver, I asked in the store which of the possible connections would be best. The answer was that if the receiver had optical input, this would be best. And indeed, it works fine. All articles I read promote optical from an Apple product.

WAV, AIFF or anything above ALAC is converted to ALAC anyway for WIFI streaming with the Apple products, to ensure uninterupted stability.
So you need a wired network for using WAV or AIFF.

I am waiting for the DAC to evaluate the difference between ERC+DAC and AE+DAC. I shall use optical for AE>DAC and I would like someone to tip me which connection would be best from ERC>DAC.

[straub]

It seems to me you want absolute sound reproduction. I think I would want a graphic analyzer or equalizer in between the decoding processing. I do not think I would trust my ears for such concise conversion. I have all the gear and when it is in use I am contented with my listening needs. I guess that's what makes us unique.
ie, I have the erc, ups-1, upa2, and 2 erm-1, polk sub and to me it can not get any better.
Enjoy!

[busen19]

I've noticed this same thing. I am running Apple TV via HDMI to my Onkyo, and with female voices (Tori Amos, Regina Spektor) they can get kinda harsh. I'm not sure if its the source, amp, speakers, etc.... but I have the same issue

[jraffety]

Apr 2, 2010 5:57:29 GMT -5 straub said:

It seems to me you want absolute sound reproduction. I think I would want a graphic analyzer or equalizer in between the decoding processing. I do not think I would trust my ears for such concise conversion. I have all the gear and when it is in use I am contented with my listening needs. I guess that's what makes us unique.
ie, I have the erc, ups-1, upa2, and 2 erm-1, polk sub and to me it can not get any better.
Enjoy!

Just to be clear I'm not expecting an accurate audiophile reproduction on my low end system. I use the ATV for occasional casual listening. I'm just scratching my head on the obvious and not subtle change going from the ATV to the PS3. The ATV is easier to use so hoping to make it sound better.

[jraffety]

Apr 2, 2010 7:51:17 GMT -5 busen19 said:

I've noticed this same thing. I am running Apple TV via HDMI to my Onkyo, and with female voices (Tori Amos, Regina Spektor) they can get kinda harsh. I'm not sure if its the source, amp, speakers, etc.... but I have the same issue

Voices are where I noticed it first too, I was blaming the amp/speakers and still do somewhat. But also found alot more detail in background and especially crowd noise on live recordings.

[jraffety]

Tried the optical audio cable from ATV vs the HDMI and can't really hear a difference. I did notice however that the PS3 is outputting a 48khz sample pcm vs the standard 44.1khz cd sample rate the atv is outputting. I think the ps3 is just doing something to the signal that works well with my setup. If I get bored later I'll move an old sony cd player in and hook up with coax and compare.

not gonna worry too much about it until i get past this receiver into a better amp