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Post by BillBauman on Mar 18, 2010 13:16:52 GMT -5
Am I the only one that read this in the list of Sherbourn PT-7020A features and got really curious?
Integrated 3D video decoder
So, I called them. It was a lot like calling Emotiva, actually. The guys I spoke with were knowledgeable, really nice, took time to answer my questions, and even sent me an editorial on the history of HDMI and the evolution to 3D.
The most interesting information I got out of this was that the Genesis Torino engine HAS 3D capability built into it. At one time, lower res. formats of 3D were being considered, i.e. 720P and 1080i. According to these guys, those formats have all been dropped and 3D is going to be exclusively 1080p, which means that, as we know, HDMI 1.4 is an absolute necessity in order to achieve the required bandwidth.
So, at one time, they thought they could offer some portion of 3D decoding, but at this point, they can't. It doesn't mean the processor can't do it, it just means they can't get the data in and out fast enough to do it. I asked the technical gentleman about using the PT-7020A in pass-thru mode, and he confirmed that would not work, as the connector absolutely must be an HDMI 1.4 connector to even pass through the information required. This leads me to believe the UMC-1 falls in the same category.
Another aspect of this 3D thing is the concept of attaching directly to your 'new' 3D monitor. Well, that's great, too, BUT, unless your new 3D Blu-Ray player has an additional 1.3-compatible HDMI output or your TV has a route-through 1.3-compatible audio output, you can't get your HD audio track to your pre-3D processor. Essentially, processors need to get to 1.4 as quickly as possible or risk extremely quickly being outdated.
This leads me to another suspicion. I suspect that the UMC-1 / PT-7020A both fell in that murky in-between time frame of just a bit too late and a bit too early. I reasonably expect that the XMC-1 will be HDMI 1.4. Why? Because the processing was designed with 3D compatibility in mind. Just because the bandwidth spec changed doesn't mean the video process was obsoleted, according to Sherbourn. So, getting 3D support in the XMC-1 should not be as difficult an overhaul as some may have suspected, it should/could/might be as easy as upgrading from 1.3a to 1.4 HDMI. Now, that is a completely new interface, so maybe they won't. But, not doing it would seem like a shame.
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Post by Mike Ronesia on Mar 18, 2010 15:32:00 GMT -5
Thanks for the research and info. I'm still a few years away from 3D but interesting none the less.
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Post by hobbs on Mar 18, 2010 15:48:58 GMT -5
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bootman
Emo VIPs 
Typing useless posts on internet forums....
Posts: 9,358
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Post by bootman on Mar 18, 2010 15:52:19 GMT -5
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Post by BillBauman on Mar 18, 2010 16:09:06 GMT -5
Yes, we all know, hence the reason I made the comparisons and posted the information here. Understanding the Sherbourn better helps us understand the UMC-1 better. |
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Post by BillBauman on Mar 18, 2010 16:17:25 GMT -5
So what is the big deal again?  I completely missed the part of my post where I said this is "a big deal". I pointed out the various scenarios in which not having a modern HDMI 1.4 interface could be undesirable. The dual-output solutions are fine, but it's a complete 180 on what most of us have been trying to accomplish - run it all through one place. Using any of these work-around solutions is one step forward, two steps back, for most of us. For some, they don't care, but for most people, we were all excited to run a single cable to a single place, now we're back to these cables here, those cables there, no, this one over there. You also just did away with your on-screen interface from your processor, let's presume your UMC-1, while watching your Blu-Ray player, because you direct-attached it to your display. But, hey, that highly touted overlay thing isn't a 'big deal' either. There is no 'big deal' here, merely observation. And, my observation is that, if you want 3D support, you will most likely want HDMI 1.4, or you will end up with a compromised solution in one way or another, and most "enthusiasts", you know, the type that buy Emotiva products, would prefer to have the most complete solution possible. This is all assuming you want 3D. I don't care about 3D. I don't own a single Blu-Ray. That said, if I were to buy a new Pre/Pro come June of this year, or later, I would not buy one without HDMI 1.4 - simply because I'm an enthusiast, and I might some day want to use some feature of HDMI 1.4 |
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Post by 0pter0n on Mar 18, 2010 16:36:39 GMT -5
I appreciate your posting this, Bill.
I originally bought my current NAD T-163 as a stopgap pending delivery of the UMC-1. As the delivery date has been extended, it seems to me now that there is a serious question about the UMC-1 maintaining currency in the light of the advent of HDMI 1.4 and the impossibility of a simple upgrade path from 1.3a to 1.4.
As I continue my vigil for the UMC-1, I have begun to wonder if I will be buying technology which will be outdated soon after payment is rendered.
I am familiar with this unplesasant question from the computer world and have done my best over the years to balance the present and future with financial realities on behalf of my then employer as well as for myself.
In the end, given the other issues that the UMC-1 presents, the issue of falling behind the curve of technology is becoming the tipping point for me. While there is great value in what the unit presents, it goes for naught if I am faced with wanting to replace it in a couple of years.
Consequently, as the 2010 models of other companies' offerings appear, I will be looking to find what they provide and at what cost.
In any case, from one Philly guy to another, thanks very much for a thought-provoking posting.
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Post by BillBauman on Mar 18, 2010 16:59:12 GMT -5
I should also note, I was actually really excited to hear this news. It means that Emotiva appears to have had 3D in their sights all along. They just seem to have gotten caught by this change of direction to 1080p 3D only. If 3D would have gone 720p, it sounds like HDMI 1.3a on the UMC-1 with its current processor would have worked. It's too bad, because there was no HDMI 1.4 when they designed it, and now, here they are, they did everything right, but it comes up a little short, and HDMI 1.4 is a whole new connector and interface and everything. I really think that should be kept in mind; there was nothing more Emotiva could have done (short of another major delay) to have delivered 3D support with the UMC-1.
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Post by BillBauman on Mar 18, 2010 17:01:19 GMT -5
0pter0n, I'm a computer nerd, too. Well, I'm assuming you are based on your user name.  I'm glad you found it informative, and you're welcome and thanks, as well. Here's to hoping the XMC-1 can get a 1.4 retrofit and come in at a reasonable price point by year's end. If not, well, a lot of us will be doing the same looking around that you are. I bought a B-stock Denon 3310ci for a friend's place, and it's been fun to play with so far. |
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Post by oscartheclimber on Mar 18, 2010 18:18:44 GMT -5
[quote author=billbauman board=preamps thread=10331 post=157679 time=1268936212
According to these guys, those formats have all been dropped and 3D is going to be exclusively 1080p, which means that, as we know, HDMI 1.4 is an absolute necessity in order to achieve the required bandwidth.
[/quote]
To be clear - perhaps Sherbourn have dropped the 720P/1080i 3D option. Sony have stated that the PS3 (with 1.3) will be 3D compatible with a SW update. DirecTV have stated the same for their HD boxes.
There seems to be a lot of confusion on this topic. It has been said that you will either get 1080P HD (2D), or a lower quality 3D with HDMI 1.3.
For the record - there are also many formats of 3D. HDMI 1.4 requires that all compliant devices support all of them.
I guess it seems less likely to see the XMC-1 with HDMI 1.4 if a new video chip is required.
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Post by BillBauman on Mar 18, 2010 19:17:33 GMT -5
oscartheclimber, that's what I had thought, as well. So, maybe I'll go Internet digging this evening and see what I can find out. I agree, though, since Sony's new Blu-Ray line also claims to be 3D-upgradeable but certainly does not have HDMI 1.4 or dual HDMI out or the 7-channel analog out that bootman pointed out would make this a feasible solution.
I'm sort of starting to get the feeling that "sure, it can be done" in the 1.3 space, but it will be one of those things that almost no one creates any content to support and the hardware manufacturers that claimed you'd have 3D can blame the content owners for not supporting their efforts.
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Mar 18, 2010 19:52:00 GMT -5
Fact: the Sherbourn PT-7020A & the UMC-1 were NOT designed to have HDMI version 1.4 with the important return channel and with 3D capability. So they were simply NOT designed for people with 3D in mind.
Extrapolation: the XMC-1 (if & when), hopefully WILL have that capability.
Personally, I give a HUGE dam about 3D. But it's only me and my very own personal opinion based on extensive reading and first hand experience.
If people don't care about 3D, or just wanna wait couple years or so (should be much better at that time duh) before jumping in, that's very fine by me (I'll be enjoying 3D in my own livingroom or Home Threater room, while these people will still be watching 2D).
In life or in death, we have a choice for proper values that suit each one of us as free individuals in a world that is fast, bizarre, not fair, with great simple things like family, love, flowers, birds, trees, mountains, lakes, oceans, snow, sand, music, movies that makes us laugh or cry, material things that don't add much to our vision of morality and justifiable use, and a lot lot more stuff about the creation in our planet...
... Hmmm, 3D or not to be, that is the question.
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Post by 2muchht on Mar 18, 2010 20:45:55 GMT -5
I'm afraid that there is some serious mis-information here:
1. There is NO new connector for REQUIRED for HDMI 1.4. There are new connector versions for automotive and other applications, but the new connector is NOT required. Look at what is on the new players and TVs and you will find that it is the same connector we all love to hate.
2. The 3D processing has to be done in the TV, not the surround processor or AVR. (Exception is the external box that you'll need for your 3D-Ready Mitsu that is specific to the way 3D will work in a DLP set, as opposed to in a plasma or LCD.) Even if the Tornio (or any other chip) could handle it, there are other specific things needed within the TV to make 3D happen.
3. Without 1.4 there is no way to pass through the information that tells the TV which standard (there are a few) it is being sent.
4. There will likely be three resolution choices for 3D, compounded by a few different means of encoding the left eye/right eye info. For cable and satellite, where there are bandwidth constraints, it will likely be "over/under" or "side by side". For Blu ray it WILL be sequential frames. These (and others) are totally apart from the resolution of the image, and it may be 720 or 1080.
Don't confuse "having a 3D capable decoder" with being able to "do" 3D. Wish it were otherwise, but it ain't.
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Mar 18, 2010 20:54:25 GMT -5
^ And who is that you referring to? (About being mis-informed on HDMI v1.4 and it's implications.)
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Post by oscartheclimber on Mar 18, 2010 21:36:48 GMT -5
3. Without 1.4 there is no way to pass through the information that tells the TV which standard (there are a few) it is being sent. I disagree with this statement. The Sony PS3 and DirecTV HD STB will do 3D with only HDMI 1.3 (with SW updates). 1.4 is required for 1080P 3D as a high bandwidth is required to produce two near simultaneous 1080P images, one for each eye. HDMI 1.3 cannot do that. What we have to accept is that there really are two "variations" of 3D - and resolution is a factor: 3D BluRay 3D For instance it has been said that while the DirecTV STB can handle 1080P24, it will lower the res when a 3D program is displayed. The PS3 will most likely do the same. A 1.4 compliant pre/pro is not required to watch 3D BluRay, however a BD player like the Panasonic which runs one HDMI 1.3 to the receiver for audio decoding, and a second at HDMI 1.4 straight to the display for video decoding. |
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Post by oscartheclimber on Mar 18, 2010 22:06:26 GMT -5
... since Sony's new Blu-Ray line also claims to be 3D-upgradeable but certainly does not have HDMI 1.4 or dual HDMI ... I recently read that the new Sony BD players may be 1.4 compliant. I believe the issue has to do with the player being released before the final 1.4 spec was published. Since they couldn't claim that it was complaint with an un-published/yet-to-be finalized spec, it was labeled as HDMI 1.3 |
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Post by 2muchht on Mar 19, 2010 1:03:18 GMT -5
" Who are you disagreeing with..."
> Mostly whomever gave you the info at Sherbourn. Beyond that anyone says the "new connector" is needed.
"PS3..."
> It's still unknown exactly what they will do. THey have never REALLY said what HDMI version they will have, and if they can re-program the stack for the Tx to pass out the VSIF info then it will, but definition, become 1.4. So to that extent, you're right that it will work, but the exact "Version" is squishy. Will be interesting to see if they treat the 3D in games the same way as they will have to adhere to the Blu ray. WIth the games they set the standard as it is closed system; not the case for Blu ray. I have to say that the 3D baseball PS3 game on an OLED was the best 3D at CES.
"DirecTV"
> Same concept, but, again, we won't know exactly until we find out what they will do until they either do it or release the info. Best educated guess is that they will do a 720p version wtih either over/under or side-by-side "Frame Compatible" imaging for the left eye/right eye. In fact, they may switch between the two depending on the type of program material and whether it is sports/action or movies.
"Cable"
> Will probably do the same as DirecTV with a download to update the boxes. THey can't increase the bandwidth, so we'll see what it ends up as.
Oscar, you're correct that if there are separate 1.4 and 1.3 outputs, as Panasonic will do, you're OK with a 1.3 processor. The problem comes when the player is 1.4 only. THe real end game with PS3 remains to be seen when they show it at E3 or tell us more sooner.
At this point, in many aspects of this we're all speculating until we get our hands on this stuff and can wring it all out.
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Post by BillBauman on Mar 19, 2010 11:21:32 GMT -5
So, based on what I'm reading here, I did not exactly get the most accurate information from Sherbourn. I guess it's more research and a lot of wait-and-see at this point.
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I'm glad you found it informative, and you're welcome and thanks, as well. Here's to hoping the XMC-1 can get a 1.4 retrofit and come in at a reasonable price point by year's end. If not, well, a lot of us will be doing the same looking around that you are. I bought a B-stock Denon 3310ci for a friend's place, and it's been fun to play with so far.
