DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Mar 28, 2010 11:45:59 GMT -5
A dedicated sub out for zone 2 is the easiest way to control the output signal. Unfortunately, most zone 2's are not treated very well for control....they are almost an afterthought...... I hope that changes in time..... In most cases zone 2 is added as a convenience for a user that wants to add something like an extra room or lobby sound to the main system, or perhaps to send a secondary signal to a secondary listening space such as a bedroom or patio. It is really not intended as a second primary listening zone; if it were it would have to provide a full second zone 5.1 or 7.1 outputs with video. Is this is what you need? You can easily use a stereo zone 2 that includes a subwoofer, either by using Y-connectors to the sub amp or as suggested by using speaker level out from the second zone amplifier. But if you need genuine 2.1 multi-channel second zone, the UMC-1 can't do that. |
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Post by Porscheguy on Mar 28, 2010 12:02:37 GMT -5
Unfortunately, no pre/pro or receiver I've seen does this either. 2.1 Is what I'm trying to accomplish, with as few wires as possible  |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 28, 2010 12:05:59 GMT -5
Why would zone 2 need a sub out? If you have a second dedicated sub for zone 2(I actually run 2 subs in zone 2)then you can still loop feed it via the stereo zone 2 outputs or run it via speaker level inputs(Your sub should have the ability to use one or the other). SInce zone 2 is obviously for stereo/music listening. The subs gain control obviously will be taken care on the sub itself(along with variable or basic phase), and with one of the manual EQ presets on the UMC-1 you will still have a few bands worth of EQ control for the sub frequencies as well to get a real good in room response curve. For example with my UMC-1/UPA-7 combo. I run my Adcom cd player into the rca CD inputs. Then on the zone 2 output, I run a pair of 50 foot RCA cables to the subs(one to the left, one to the right)inputs. Then I run a pair of 50 foot rca stereo cables back from the subs rca outputs(in which the subs run a 130hz high pass signal to the UPA-7)and into 2 channels of the UPA-7. Then the speaker level outputs on the amp run speaker cable to the Magnepan MMGW's. This way I have a fixed highpass xover to the speakers at 130hz(which is perfect for them)and a variable 12/24db low pass to the subs. So using an rta meter I am able to get a perfect blend with my subs and wall mounted speakers. To finish smoothing out the response curve between the subs and monitors I use manual preset #3 and get rid of any naturally remaining bumps or dips with the accompanying UMC-1 EQ once the gain levels, xover and phase has been set properly. I'm just going to use the speaker level inputs on the sub. I didn't want to do that because it means more wiring - I'm using a wireless (Subcast) to send the sub signal to zone 2 now and it works quite well, but again the output is variable as it is controlled but the main volume. Your solution seems tedious and complicated in my view and I'm not going down that road... A dedicated sub out for zone 2 is the easiest way to control the output signal. Unfortunately, most zone 2's are not treated very well for control....they are almost an afterthought...... I hope that changes in time..... I didnt know a couple pairs of L/R rca's was considered complicated.......LOL! Just out of curiosity, why would you really need a sub out for stereo zone 2? Once you tune in your sub to your speakers you really shouldnt need to have to tweak it any further. If so, thats what the user presets on the UMC-1 are for, you can dedicate one specifically for zone 2 if need be. |
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Post by Porscheguy on Mar 28, 2010 12:20:58 GMT -5
I'm just going to use the speaker level inputs on the sub. I didn't want to do that because it means more wiring - I'm using a wireless (Subcast) to send the sub signal to zone 2 now and it works quite well, but again the output is variable as it is controlled but the main volume. Your solution seems tedious and complicated in my view and I'm not going down that road... A dedicated sub out for zone 2 is the easiest way to control the output signal. Unfortunately, most zone 2's are not treated very well for control....they are almost an afterthought...... I hope that changes in time..... I didnt know a couple pairs of L/R rca's was considered complicated.......LOL! Just out of curiosity, why would you really need a sub out for stereo zone 2? Once you tune in your sub to your speakers you really shouldnt need to have to tweak it any further. If so, thats what the user presets on the UMC-1 are for, you can dedicate one specifically for zone 2 if need be. Because the sub out level is controlled by the main volume in the theater. So, if the music upstairs (zone 2) is at a low volume lets say, and I turn the volume up downstairs in the main theater, it raises the output to the sub upstairs making it louder, but the speaker volume remains low unless I raise it to match with the zone 2 volume control which of course is separate. I'm also talking about my Denon AVP 8000. I don't have my UMC-1 yet so I'm not too familiar with a lot of its operation... |
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Mar 28, 2010 12:27:49 GMT -5
I thought the idea was that the sub in Zone 2 was run off the Zone two speakers (high level) or likewise off the Zone 2 L/R and then passed out to the Zone 2 amp. In that config the volume on zone one will not affect anything in zone 2 if you can only affect zone 2 level via a separate Z2 volume.
I think something is being missed here ... ;-)
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Post by Porscheguy on Mar 28, 2010 12:47:09 GMT -5
I thought the idea was that the sub in Zone 2 was run off the Zone two speakers (high level) or likewise off the Zone 2 L/R and then passed out to the Zone 2 amp. In that config the volume on zone one will not affect anything in zone 2 if you can only affect zone 2 level via a separate Z2 volume. I think something is being missed here ... ;-) Yes, thats certainly the solution, but I've been running the sub wirelessly and the sub is not near the speakers. So for hardwire I have to "Y" the speakers and run separate outputs to the sub. I was trying to avoid that.... My sub is actually behind that chair on the right...... My zone 2...  |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 28, 2010 13:27:00 GMT -5
OK, something is not making sense to me here...............why would your zone 2 sub be run off and controlled by the theatre volume control? Your zone 2 sub should be summed in some fashion off the zone 2 outputs. Either via the rca outputs on the preamp or speaker level outputs from the zone 2 amp itself............even if run wirelessly, the wireless device should be hooked into the zone 2 outputs, not the .1 lfe output.
So it sounds to me like your trying to run your zone 2 sub through the .1 lfe output. That really isnt the best way to do it.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Mar 28, 2010 13:44:44 GMT -5
Unfortunately, no pre/pro or receiver I've seen does this either. 2.1 Is what I'm trying to accomplish, with as few wires as possible I'm pretty certain the top end Denon receivers do this. |
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Post by Porscheguy on Mar 28, 2010 13:52:44 GMT -5
OK, something is not making sense to me here...............why would your zone 2 sub be run off and controlled by the theatre volume control? Your zone 2 sub should be summed in some fashion off the zone 2 outputs. Either via the rca outputs on the preamp or speaker level outputs from the zone 2 amp itself............even if run wirelessly, the wireless device should be hooked into the zone 2 outputs, not the .1 lfe output. So it sounds to me like your trying to run your zone 2 sub through the .1 lfe output. That really isnt the best way to do it. Yes, zone 2 is summed to rca's which are in turn connected to 2 channels of my XPA-5. But the only way to get the LFE to the sub wirelessly was thru the RCA sub out. To be honest, I've been waiting FOREVER for the UMC-1 so this set up is cobbled together and its not the right way to go. In fact I had my whole HT apart in January as I waited for the UMC-1 only to be told that it wouldn't delivered be until April........ So I "sort of" reassembled it while I wait for the UMC-1 to arrive..... I was hoping the bass management in the UMC-1 was more controllable - meaning I hoped one of the two sub outs on the UMC-1 could be assignable to zone 2.... There is no reason why that couldn't happen thru firmware - or is there?  |
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Post by markus on Mar 28, 2010 13:53:04 GMT -5
Well thats funny.......I have both my subs together, and I dont have any "seat to seat variance" at all. And I dont even have the ability to use the sub EQ on the UMC-1 yet. I only have the single band PEQ available from my subs. I have no peaks or dips at any of the seated positions at all. How big is your room? Can you provide any measurements that would prove your claim? It is very, very uncommon not to have any low frequency modal problems. |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 28, 2010 14:19:06 GMT -5
OK, something is not making sense to me here...............why would your zone 2 sub be run off and controlled by the theatre volume control? Your zone 2 sub should be summed in some fashion off the zone 2 outputs. Either via the rca outputs on the preamp or speaker level outputs from the zone 2 amp itself............even if run wirelessly, the wireless device should be hooked into the zone 2 outputs, not the .1 lfe output. So it sounds to me like your trying to run your zone 2 sub through the .1 lfe output. That really isnt the best way to do it. Yes, zone 2 is summed to rca's which are in turn connected to 2 channels of my XPA-5. But the only way to get the LFE to the sub wirelessly was thru the RCA sub out. To be honest, I've been waiting FOREVER for the UMC-1 so this set up is cobbled together and its not the right way to go. In fact I had my whole HT apart in January as I waited for the UMC-1 only to be told that it wouldn't delivered be until April........ So I "sort of" reassembled it while I wait for the UMC-1 to arrive..... I was hoping the bass management in the UMC-1 was more controllable - meaning I hoped one of the two sub outs on the UMC-1 could be assignable to zone 2.... There is no reason why that couldn't happen thru firmware - or is there? The thing is, through zone 2/stereo output, you still have bass management through the manual presets in the form of a few bands of EQ(32hz,63hz,125hz)to smooth out the bass. You just need to somehow either loop the rca inputs/outputs of the sub istself between the preamp and amp, or run speaker level input. Even if your sub isnt near or next to the speakers there is probably a very simple elegant solution, but its probably going to mean running wires if you really want to get the setup I think your looking for. Its not that hard to run wires in the wall, or under/behind the baseboard you know........sure it means a few hours out of your time, but the end results will probably outweigh the few hours of labor to do it.......buy a 12 pack and invite a few friends over while you do it.  |
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Post by Porscheguy on Mar 28, 2010 14:28:21 GMT -5
Yes, zone 2 is summed to rca's which are in turn connected to 2 channels of my XPA-5. But the only way to get the LFE to the sub wirelessly was thru the RCA sub out. To be honest, I've been waiting FOREVER for the UMC-1 so this set up is cobbled together and its not the right way to go. In fact I had my whole HT apart in January as I waited for the UMC-1 only to be told that it wouldn't delivered be until April........ So I "sort of" reassembled it while I wait for the UMC-1 to arrive..... I was hoping the bass management in the UMC-1 was more controllable - meaning I hoped one of the two sub outs on the UMC-1 could be assignable to zone 2.... There is no reason why that couldn't happen thru firmware - or is there? The thing is, through zone 2/stereo output, you still have bass management through the manual presets in the form of a few bands of EQ(32hz,63hz,125hz)to smooth out the bass. You just need to somehow either loop the rca inputs/outputs of the sub istself between the preamp and amp, or run speaker level input. Even if your sub isnt near or next to the speakers there is probably a very simple elegant solution, but its probably going to mean running wires if you really want to get the setup I think your looking for. Its not that hard to run wires in the wall, or under/behind the baseboard you know........sure it means a few hours out of your time, but the end results will probably outweigh the few hours of labor to do it.......buy a 12 pack and invite a few friends over while you do it. Like I said, this is more about the UMC-1 which I don't have yet. When it arrives, I'll be gettin' down to setting it all up properly. As far as running wires go....... Who do think ran all the wiring for my theater, my zone 2, my patio and garage? |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Mar 28, 2010 14:41:12 GMT -5
I was hoping the bass management in the UMC-1 was more controllable - meaning I hoped one of the two sub outs on the UMC-1 could be assignable to zone 2.... There is no reason why that couldn't happen thru firmware - or is there? The UMC-1 actually has one channel sub output. The same information is sent to both the XLR and the RCA connector. This cannot be changed via firmware as it would require physical changes to the device. |
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Post by Porscheguy on Mar 28, 2010 15:08:39 GMT -5
I was hoping the bass management in the UMC-1 was more controllable - meaning I hoped one of the two sub outs on the UMC-1 could be assignable to zone 2.... There is no reason why that couldn't happen thru firmware - or is there? The UMC-1 actually has one channel sub output. The same information is sent to both the XLR and the RCA connector. This cannot be changed via firmware as it would require physical changes to the device. I meant it had two sub outs - I knew they both carried same signal...... I just wasn't sure if the outputs were assignable or not. On the UMC-1, can't you assign 2 or more of the 7 channels to zone two? If you can do that, I thought there might be way to do that with the sub outs. Like I said, I don't have my UMC-1 yet nor have I looked at the UM...... |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Mar 28, 2010 15:20:12 GMT -5
The UMC-1 actually has one channel sub output. The same information is sent to both the XLR and the RCA connector. This cannot be changed via firmware as it would require physical changes to the device. I meant it had two sub outs - I knew they both carried same signal...... I just wasn't sure if the outputs were assignable or not. On the UMC-1, can't you assign 2 or more of the 7 channels to zone two? If you can do that, I thought there might be way to do that with the sub outs. Like I said, I don't have my UMC-1 yet nor have I looked at the UM...... No, it has one sub output that happens to have two connectors... Zone 2 is a stereo mix-down output. You assign which analog input you'd like it to repeat, but not which channels of that input. It can only repeat a digital input if that input is also the main input, and then zone 2 is a stereo mix-down of the digital signal. The kind of functionality you want is really only available in devices at a MUCH higher price point. like the Denon 5308 receiver. |
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Post by artiek on Mar 28, 2010 17:33:33 GMT -5
Who? ;D
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Post by Porscheguy on Mar 28, 2010 18:06:54 GMT -5
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Post by markus on Mar 28, 2010 18:31:19 GMT -5
Well thats funny.......I have both my subs together, and I dont have any "seat to seat variance" at all. And I dont even have the ability to use the sub EQ on the UMC-1 yet. I only have the single band PEQ available from my subs. I have no peaks or dips at any of the seated positions at all. How big is your room? Can you provide any measurements that would prove your claim? It is very, very uncommon not to have any low frequency modal problems. ntrain42 You don't see any variations because your RTA hides them. The AudioControl SA-3055 offers only one-third octave resolution which is too coarse. A meaningful measurement needs to have a much higher frequency resolution (preferable 1 Hz). Modal peaks show a very high Q. You need to see that in order to find the correct settings for a parametric EQ. This is what your RTA would show:  This is what it really looks (and sounds) like:  Best, Markus |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 29, 2010 10:28:33 GMT -5
How big is your room? Can you provide any measurements that would prove your claim? It is very, very uncommon not to have any low frequency modal problems. ntrain42 You don't see any variations because your RTA hides them. The AudioControl SA-3055 offers only one-third octave resolution which is too coarse. A meaningful measurement needs to have a much higher frequency resolution (preferable 1 Hz). Modal peaks show a very high Q. You need to see that in order to find the correct settings for a parametric EQ. This is what your RTA would show: This is what it really looks (and sounds) like: Best, Markus Yes, I am aware of the smoothing factor, but when using a pink noise frequency sweep(which does do 1hz increments from 10hz-300hz for 5 second intervals each)test track, the spl meter(which is accurate within +/- .25db) will still pick up any dips or peaks. Again this is where placement of the sub grouping is key. |
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Post by markus on Mar 29, 2010 11:46:18 GMT -5
Yes, I am aware of the smoothing factor, but when using a pink noise frequency sweep(which does do 1hz increments from 10hz-300hz for 5 second intervals each)test track, the spl meter(which is accurate within +/- .25db) will still pick up any dips or peaks. Again this is where placement of the sub grouping is key. It's not the signal type but the smoothing function that hides peaks and dips. You simply can't see them with one-third octave resolution. And a single subwoofer or grouping multiple subwoofers at one location will make modal problems even worse. Would love to see the real low frequency response of your room. Have you ever used Room EQ Wizard or HOLMImpulse for measurements (both are free)? I've NEVER seen a room without modal problems. Best, Markus |
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;D 
