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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2010 1:16:34 GMT -5
Sorry you horse sympathizers but I find this thread interesting and am still learning at my advanced age (I'm a slow learner). Now I get it! It is a matter of semantics for me. When I hear party music I think loud drinking and dance music. People said years ago that my ex and I had the best parties in Spokane. Now I understand that many here are talking more about background music for civilized, boring sit around and chat parties (the type where you're trying to put the make on the neighbor's wife). So I do get the soft background music idea that is equally audible for all in a large room. All channel mono might even be better. ;D  |
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Post by Mike Ronesia on Apr 7, 2010 1:30:28 GMT -5
I never heard of your partys? I bet you lived on the East side...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2010 2:02:35 GMT -5
The Valley.
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Post by Mike Ronesia on Apr 7, 2010 5:43:18 GMT -5
I figured...  You seem like a valley boy. You might as well of been in Post Falls.  |
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Post by beatista on Apr 7, 2010 8:46:05 GMT -5
I can't be so hard though.....
To make all of the users happy...
Make it possible to choose 2 channel stereo AND Multi-Channel Stereo.
Its just a matter of programming isnt it?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2010 11:08:41 GMT -5
What? Did someone just call me boy?
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Post by tonymc on Apr 7, 2010 11:31:04 GMT -5
I figured... You seem like a valley boy. You might as well of been in Post Falls. Hey. I resemble that remark... Well sort of.  ;D |
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 7, 2010 12:00:34 GMT -5
Sorry you horse sympathizers but I find this thread interesting and am still learning at my advanced age (I'm a slow learner). Now I get it! It is a matter of semantics for me. When I hear party music I think loud drinking and dance music. People said years ago that my ex and I had the best parties in Spokane. Now I understand that many here are talking more about background music for civilized, boring sit around and chat parties (the type where you're trying to put the make on the neighbor's wife). So I do get the soft background music idea that is equally audible for all in a large room. All channel mono might even be better. ;D I'm a big 2-channel purist fan. At the same time, those that tell you that anything but 2 channel is 'unnatural' and compare it to the an amplified concert are often times kidding themselves. Plenty of venues have speakers lining from the front to the back, like a movie theater, and present live music in a multi-channel stereo format. There are other venues that don't do that. There are even live concerts with no amplification. I have even heard of people singing in showers in monotone (unconfirmed reports, of course). I like multichannel stereo sometimes, it's enveloping. There's a lot of electronic, jungle, house music produced and mixed in 2 channels that can really come alive in multichannel. So, even at your old age, what are you, now, 22? ;D it's fine to enjoy whichever format sounds good to you - even if it's just to throw the best parties. |
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Post by snodog on Apr 7, 2010 16:45:54 GMT -5
Very well said BillBauman
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Post by Mischief on Apr 7, 2010 17:05:24 GMT -5
I mix for several bands in Austin, 4-5 nights a week. Pretty much any venue you can name in the south and I have yet to mix for a session with speakers running down the side. Wine bars and restaurant have speakers set randomly around the place, not a serious venue. That stands for stadium venues and smaller ones like The Continental Club.
It simply isn't done because the band has no control in such a situation, you can't bump your amp for one song and have it change all the way down. It would be a nightmare.
I have seen some venues that have speakers set all over the place but they are only active when the jukebox or ambient is playing.
I think people should have any option they desire in their home but to say professional music venues use side channels is flat out wrong.
Addition: When DVD-A and SACD came out, several bands tried to do surround in their shows, it was quickly dropped because of the difficulty of mixing a live show in surround.
Additional Addition: Bill, No disrespect intended, you are one of those here that make me think and have great insight into the hobby.
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 7, 2010 18:25:34 GMT -5
Mischief, I appreciate your well-thought-out post, and your insight. I also have a little experience with some live venues, and yes, usually they are set up with a 2-channel stereo image up front. That said, the Tin Angel in Philadelphia has speakers down the sides - and it has to be the crappiest sounding venue I've ever been to. I'm not sure if that's like, touche to myself, or not.  It is super-common for dance clubs, which sort of lends itself to that 'party' concept - just make noise, loud noise, lots of it. When Whistle (the 'rave') came to Shampoo in Philadelphia they also had multichannel-like setups for some of the performances. The main stage was not, and The Crystal Method sounding excellent in 2-channel. ;D But some of the other rooms were surround, and very cool at that. I completely agree, though, that everyone should get what they'd like. I also generally agree that 2-channel is almost always best for musical reproduction, especially live. I think that in the future, as computers become more able to handle the automatic mixing of sound for us, multi-channel live may become a very pleasant experience, but yes, mixing multi-channel in the studio is painstaking enough, in a live environment, I would venture to say it's 'humanly' impossible (to do well). |
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Post by Mischief on Apr 7, 2010 19:04:00 GMT -5
One thing to consider is that you can't think of live music as stereo, it is not. It is individual instruments creating sound from their set positions, be it an amp, trumpet, or drums. It is a front stage, it is alive!
Stereo or any other kind of music is an attempt to replicate that stage. Even studio mixes, where tracks are laid down individually are mixed to represent that front stage.
A symphony or orchestra play in front of you, not around you, the stage is set, each player is in place...in front of you.
Experimental mixes exist and obviously multi-channel is out there and some are very good, some are very bad. Multi-channel mixes are generally not a good representation of a live show. The exception would be when they mix the crowd into the surrounds. I love concert discs and listen to both mixes and it works for concert videos.
Night clubs are a very different beast as you said, it is not a live show in most cases and when they do have live music it sounds pretty bad.
You are also correct in saying live mixing is very difficult, every venue is different and every song changes for some bands. Unless you can drop a half million or so in amps, it is impossible to get perfect.
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 7, 2010 19:20:41 GMT -5
Mischief, all great points. I guess it mostly all goes to say, comparing our 2 or multichannel home stereo experiences to any aspect of live performance is relatively invalid. Other than, of course, did that home presentation do a good job of drawing you in and making you feel like it was a live performance?
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Post by Mischief on Apr 7, 2010 19:29:11 GMT -5
We all strive to recreate the "There" experience at home, but I don't believe any combination of gear quite gets there... yet.
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 7, 2010 19:37:44 GMT -5
We all strive to recreate the "There" experience at home, but I don't believe any combination of gear quite gets there... yet. I have musician friends. I make them play for me - at home. This literally recreated the in-person experience. Honestly. |
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ratmice
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Post by ratmice on Apr 7, 2010 20:25:23 GMT -5
We all strive to recreate the "There" experience at home, but I don't believe any combination of gear quite gets there... yet. I've got some multiple source (both soundboard and audience recordings) matrix mixes in DVD-A format that are nearly indistinguishable from "being there". Not many, but some. It's all in the mix, the equipment, for the most part, is secondary. |
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 7, 2010 20:35:28 GMT -5
It's all in the mix, the equipment, for the most part, is secondary. Yes. yep-yep-yep. Anyone who has ever dealt with audio professionally, studio or live, knows that the mix is everything when it comes to what we finally hear. |
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Post by Mischief on Apr 7, 2010 21:40:39 GMT -5
True Dat!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2010 22:43:40 GMT -5
So, even at your old age, what are you, now, 22? Mr. Bauman, it would seem that I need to fire up the old wise guy meter once again. ;D |
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Post by jtmjnow on Apr 8, 2010 0:09:22 GMT -5
I agree with having my cake (stereo) and eat it too (Multichannels/7.1) It is fun tweaking through the various modes, the more the merrier, and finding just the right sound in ones psychoacoustical non fatiguing enviornment.
Play Big I say Play Big!
I guess it would be out of place to ask for three D capabilities. You want what!!!
jtmj
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You seem like a valley boy. You might as well of been in Post Falls. 
;D
It is super-common for dance clubs, which sort of lends itself to that 'party' concept - just make noise, loud noise, lots of it. When Whistle (the 'rave') came to Shampoo in Philadelphia they also had multichannel-like setups for some of the performances. The main stage was not, and The Crystal Method sounding excellent in 2-channel. ;D But some of the other rooms were surround, and very cool at that.
