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Post by algreen345 on Apr 17, 2010 8:40:28 GMT -5
Emotiva,
There is a great alternative to trying to solve all your problems with the UMC-1 on your own. If the hardware platform is solid and stable, and it is the software that needs to be fixed - Open Source it and let your community of customers form an ecosystem around your code, allowing them to improve it and innovate new FW update systems.
The industry has many successful precedents. Western Digital did this with their WDTV firmware, and there is a huge international community devoted to adding new software features within a very small FW code space. In the first version of WDTV, creative coders took a USB only device and added ethernet to USB adapters, allowing the device to load FLAC and MP3 directly from NAS drives via the USB interface.
The point is not the features. The point is that an external community of customers assumed responsibility for FW code enhancements and beta testing, and became even more loyal as a result.
Use your ecosystem, and let your customers enhance your product for you and for themselves.
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Post by LuisV on Apr 17, 2010 8:57:17 GMT -5
Not sure if they would want to do that as some code maybe copyrighted or proprietary. What they should do is open source the installer...
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Post by thommo on Apr 17, 2010 9:16:07 GMT -5
I think this idea has merit.
My only concern is that as a person who is not - well up to speed with all this sought of thing - I have an inherent mistrust of non corporately supported software e.g. I just don't get all this Linux and its variants stuff although I also understand that such things are very viable and beneficial to some people.
However - if Emotiva had a standard base level code that a user could always get back to then the option of trying a "collaboratively" developed code would be great. Over time who knows where such a code could go.
I suppose what I am getting at is I expect the vendor to stand behind their product (and I believe Emotiva does) and the concept I think you are suggesting must be over and above that base level corporate support.
edit
Just saw the poll - I'd almost be in the scared witless category.
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Post by sergeantynot on Apr 17, 2010 10:44:37 GMT -5
You need to include the "Do not want Open Source" option. While Linux might be stable, there are so many flavors running around that in the corporate world there are very few that are trusted, like Red Hat and Suse (which are not really free). With the UMC being so complex, you would ultimately need one mainstream development construct, which is what Emotiva has done and now they're in charge of manufacturing those FW updates. It might be a good idea to "suggest" development tools or modules to improve the UMC platform, or even make their platform code open source for beta firmware, but ultimately (from Emotiva's perspective) the UMC would be impossible to support with so many interations of firmware being developed by every Tom, Dick, and Harry.
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Post by Mischief on Apr 17, 2010 11:03:26 GMT -5
Open source would make for a customer service nightmare. I agree that there are many products that benefit from open source code but how does Emotiva handle things when they have 100 variations of customized firmware to deal with.
If users were willing to give up Emo's liability if/when things don't work, that is fine, many technical people already find ways to modify a companies product but by doing so they lose their warranty in many cases.
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Post by algreen345 on Apr 17, 2010 11:11:18 GMT -5
Open source doesn't have to mean Linux. It's just a community driven model for development. Whatever the underlying OS that the UMC-1 uses is what is used.
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Post by algreen345 on Apr 17, 2010 11:14:19 GMT -5
In the WDTV case WD maintains base firmware code that every player can revert to. The community provides enhancents and the use of those enhancements does not void the warranty because they are non-destructive.
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Post by Mischief on Apr 17, 2010 12:45:23 GMT -5
One consideration is that Emotiva has managed to do more with this chip than its competition, some of whom have given up on their product. Putting the code out there would give a very unfair advantage to their competition.
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Post by sharky on Apr 17, 2010 13:52:12 GMT -5
+1 on Mischief point of view here. We've seen big companies giving up on making similar platforms work altogether, after years trying. If they could get their hands on Emotiva's code (that works, has a few small non-core bugs only that can easily be ironed out with a little time), they would have a vey, very unfair advantage over the little guy that could, and that managed to do what they didn't.
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Post by markus on Apr 17, 2010 13:56:56 GMT -5
Asking for open sourcing the UMC-1 platform at this time is naive at best.
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 18, 2010 15:43:35 GMT -5
I'm not going to comment on the concept itself, but the poll itself makes no sense. This poll creates mutual exclusivity between its possible responses which share significantly inclusive statements. In other words, of the 5 options, there is the possibility that many users would select more than one, or all five even, but are only given the option of 1 out of the 5. It's poorly worded, at best, and provides no insight at all, at worst.
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Apr 18, 2010 16:03:09 GMT -5
Personally I disagree with the idea of open-source firmware. Processor code is:
- proprietary property and forms Emotiva's intellectual capital
- possibly targeted for use in units manufactured for other vendors (and they may not want to make it Open source)
- highly specialized - meaning a smaller captive code developer audience
- complex - involving several detailed and complicated sound and video processing algorithms
- subject to regulatory requirements - need to meet standards set by Dolby, etc..
- dependent on the chips used - protocols, timing and clocking requirements are hardware specific
The public at large is unlikely to have the depth of experience required to develop the firmware. Just look at the number of other reputable audio companies that have thrown in the towel.. I believe that the development of the firmware is best kept in-house.
I do however believe that the upgrade process needs to be made easier (using network, USB, CD update methods - yes, all of them!) as well as robust (so there's no likelihood of a dubious install).
In addition, a beta test program using a sample of the population would allow a lot of the issues to be discovered earlier.
The above steps should make the customer upgrade experience smooth and reliable.
Just my $2 worth!
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Post by matt on Apr 18, 2010 19:20:44 GMT -5
...While Linux might be stable, there are so many flavors running around that in the corporate world there are very few that are trusted, like Red Hat and Suse (which are not really free). Speaking of trust, I trust that Microsoft's monthly update policy guarantees virus authors more than 30 days of unfettered distribution time. With Red Hat, the source code is free, but not the artwork and trademarks. Distributions like CentOS and Scientific Linux take free source code from Red Hat and replace the artwork and trademarks to make a distribution that can be distributed freely. Emotiva could more reliability update the UMC-1's firmware under Linux. Linux has very simple interfaces (API's) into hardware, while Windows has convoluted API's that are a product of supporting 18 year-old API's plus security patches and features that have been wedged in since inception. Emotiva could supply a Linux boot CD or thumb drive with a firmware updater that could be put in any PC to reliably update the UMC-1's firmware without installing software on the user's computer. Hard drive manufactures used to flash their products using DOS boot floppy images, before floppy drives became obsolete. They knew better than to trust the customer's OS to update the firmware correctly. Of course, there are other issues, such as customers who need to press a key for their BIOS to boot from a CD or thumb drive, but at least they are not installing drivers on their OS to talk to a serial port and corrupting their flash process by not booting into Safe Mode! Really, the UMC-1 should be updated by copying files to a thumb drive and sticking it in the back of the UMC-1. Hopefully, such an update mechanism can be added in a future firmware update. Plus, Emotiva should offer beta releases of the firmware. With all of the less than up-to-spec HDMI implementations out there, it is a bit foolish to think that a beta testing service could catch everything unless they have most HDMI products ever made. Only a few companies like Intel can afford this level of testing coverage. Customers are going to find problems no mater how well you test. You may as well give your more technically inclined customers an opportunity to take a shot at it before giving it to everyone. The more technically inclined customers are going to understand what a beta release is and report issues without complaining, and everyone else waits until most of the issues are ironed out. |
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Post by algreen345 on Apr 19, 2010 10:01:13 GMT -5
...While Linux might be stable, there are so many flavors running around that in the corporate world there are very few that are trusted, like Red Hat and Suse (which are not really free). Speaking of trust, I trust that Microsoft's monthly update policy guarantees virus authors more than 30 days of unfettered distribution time. With Red Hat, the source code is free, but not the artwork and trademarks. Distributions like CentOS and Scientific Linux take free source code from Red Hat and replace the artwork and trademarks to make a distribution that can be distributed freely. Emotiva could more reliability update the UMC-1's firmware under Linux. Linux has very simple interfaces (API's) into hardware, while Windows has convoluted API's that are a product of supporting 18 year-old API's plus security patches and features that have been wedged in since inception. Emotiva could supply a Linux boot CD or thumb drive with a firmware updater that could be put in any PC to reliably update the UMC-1's firmware without installing software on the user's computer. Hard drive manufactures used to flash their products using DOS boot floppy images, before floppy drives became obsolete. They knew better than to trust the customer's OS to update the firmware correctly. Of course, there are other issues, such as customers who need to press a key for their BIOS to boot from a CD or thumb drive, but at least they are not installing drivers on their OS to talk to a serial port and corrupting their flash process by not booting into Safe Mode! Really, the UMC-1 should be updated by copying files to a thumb drive and sticking it in the back of the UMC-1. Hopefully, such an update mechanism can be added in a future firmware update. Plus, Emotiva should offer beta releases of the firmware. With all of the less than up-to-spec HDMI implementations out there, it is a bit foolish to think that a beta testing service could catch everything unless they have most HDMI products ever made. Only a few companies like Intel can afford this level of testing coverage. Customers are going to find problems no mater how well you test. You may as well give your more technically inclined customers an opportunity to take a shot at it before giving it to everyone. The more technically inclined customers are going to understand what a beta release is and report issues without complaining, and everyone else waits until most of the issues are ironed out. Good post. I agree. |
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Post by bootman on Apr 19, 2010 15:25:23 GMT -5
Really, the UMC-1 should be updated by copying files to a thumb drive and sticking it in the back of the UMC-1. Hopefully, such an update mechanism can be added in a future firmware update. I don't think this is possible without new hardware. The current upgrade process requires that a PC becomes the client. (usb controller) and the UMC the host (usb storage). I don't think a usb controller is built into the UMC so just plugging in a thumb drive won't work. (if this is indeed the case) |
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Post by mj on Apr 19, 2010 18:38:56 GMT -5
So far as the OP, I don't see that this is very likely to happen. Even if Emotiva wanted to make their source open, it is extremely likely that they have a significant amount of code from their silicon provider, and it would be a rare chip supplier that would release their source as open as well. While nothing is 100% (including this statement  ) it's very unlikely that the source would ever go public despite customer requests. Granted, this tendency has been broken in (at least) routers and some 3D graphics, but it's the dominant rules of engagement for the electronics industry as a whole. So it's fine to ask, but I wouldn't hold my breath. ;D It's also important to note that in image and video processing it's not just what you do, or how you do it, but also the order in which you do things. Releasing source code shows the order in which things are done, will show what is done, and may give hints as to how it is done inside the chip(s). So you can see why this would be considered proprietary... So far as USB flash updates, it depends. Right now the UMC-1 is acting as a USB device and the PC as a host. A USB device (UMC-1) cannot talk to another USB device such as a flash stick. Depending on the hardware that Emotiva uses, it's possible that they have a dual mode or OTG core that can act as either a host or device. If so, then it's possible to add the capability via software. But if the hardware doesn't support host mode, then it can't support a flash stick w/o new hardware. - MJ |
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Post by loopinfool on Apr 20, 2010 14:42:45 GMT -5
Really, the UMC-1 should be updated by copying files to a thumb drive and sticking it in the back of the UMC-1. Hopefully, such an update mechanism can be added in a future firmware update. I don't think this is possible without new hardware. The current upgrade process requires that a PC becomes the client. (usb controller) and the UMC the host (usb storage). I don't think a usb controller is built into the UMC so just plugging in a thumb drive won't work. (if this is indeed the case) Well, there is the "FUTURE EXPANSION" port, which is a USB A connector. If it's connected to a controller chip inside that might be a potential future upgrade. - LoopinFool |
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Post by ratmice on Apr 20, 2010 14:44:30 GMT -5
I don't think this is possible without new hardware. The current upgrade process requires that a PC becomes the client. (usb controller) and the UMC the host (usb storage). I don't think a usb controller is built into the UMC so just plugging in a thumb drive won't work. (if this is indeed the case) Well, there is the "FUTURE EXPANSION" port, which is a USB A connector. If it's connected to a controller chip inside that might be a potential future upgrade. - LoopinFool Or maybe something you can plug a Drobo into. Pretty please! |
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Post by monkeypimp on Apr 20, 2010 15:42:06 GMT -5
Really, the UMC-1 should be updated by copying files to a thumb drive and sticking it in the back of the UMC-1. Hopefully, such an update mechanism can be added in a future firmware update. I don't think this is possible without new hardware. The current upgrade process requires that a PC becomes the client. (usb controller) and the UMC the host (usb storage). I don't think a usb controller is built into the UMC so just plugging in a thumb drive won't work. (if this is indeed the case) When I spoke to Vincent last week about the firmware he said(i would put quotes but I can't remember the exact wording) *this will be so much easier when you can just stick a usb drive into the umc*...I then ask him about the UMC being only a client and he said that it wasn't just a client and that it will be able to accept a usb drive and do the firmware upgrades from there, that they just weren't there to be able to do this yet. |
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Post by jimsfield on Apr 20, 2010 15:46:20 GMT -5
I asked this questin a few days ago but got no reply. I thought Dan said at the time V5 was released that future firmware upgrades would be easier but couldn't find it. Does anyone else remember this?
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) it's very unlikely that the source would ever go public despite customer requests. Granted, this tendency has been broken in (at least) routers and some 3D graphics, but it's the dominant rules of engagement for the electronics industry as a whole.
