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Post by BillBauman on Apr 22, 2010 11:14:16 GMT -5
I hate the fact that I'm going to spend more time writing disclaimer than talking about my suggestion, but apparently, it has to be done (and will likely get ignored). Disclaimer: This is not an effort to deflect any amount of credit (blame) toward Emotiva and the issues with the UMC-1. This is not a guaranteed, fool-proof, 100%, money-back, double-or-nothing offer. This is not an attempt to blame your system, your cables, your components, any other companies' products, your mother, or mine, for any of the problems that are experienced with the UMC-1, the XMC-1, the XDA-1, the LMC-1, the MMC-1Million, nor the Run DMC-1. This is a suggestion, based on some reading I've done, that may or may not help you. It may not help anyone. It may help several people. I do not know. I do not watch, listen to, own, touch, spin, throw, or otherwise partake in Blu-ray discs, media, platters, content, etc. I do not have any source material above 96KHz/2-channel. I am a human (usually). You are likely human, as well. This post is meant to possibly help those that are trying to improve their current experience with the UMC-1. It is not intended to solve world hunger. It should not upset you. If this post upsets you, please click the back button. Please do no flame me for offering up advice on what sounds like a plausible solution/scenario based on the anecdotal experience of others. It seems everyone with the HK receivers that use the Cirrus chips are having pretty much all the same issues we are. Sadly, they've been at for quite some time longer. I tried to read through the entire AVR 1600 2600 3600 owner's thread, and I found at several different times individuals posting that they resolved HDMI audio dropouts and video issues by using a higher quality HDMI cable. While most of these cables should all perform to task, HDMI is a consumer electronics specification, and is therefore subject to generally the lowest common denominator and manufacturers generally build to the lowest spec possible. I wonder if this is a case where one or another HDMI cable might make a difference in performance. As we know, with digital, you either get the right one's and zero's or you don't. What if low-quality cables are causing errors? These aren't computers, there is no method of determining exactly what's causing what problems. The processor might just not be getting enough correct binary data, and simply malfunction, or drop channels, etc. I think it's possible the newer DSP's have a lower tolerance for lower quality connections. Ann's post earlier today about the NAD's having similar issues with the latest MIPS dual-core DSP's tends to lend itself to this theory, as well. So, for those of you having troubles, if you aren't already 100% certain you have a super-duper quality cable, would it be possible to try a super-duper one? It's worth a shot, if you're up for it. Make sure you can return it first, of course, but I'd be really curious to see if shorter cables or higher quality HDMI cables might alleviate some issues, make them occur less often, or resolve them altogether. |
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Post by alan13 on Apr 22, 2010 11:30:32 GMT -5
Would it be practical to poll users and identify any verifiable relationship between audio drop-out and cable used?
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bootman
Emo VIPs 
Typing useless posts on internet forums....
Posts: 9,358
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Post by bootman on Apr 22, 2010 12:12:21 GMT -5
I agree that passing a signal at 400MHz isn't as easy as passing one at 20kHz since the same laws of physics apply to both. Even having slight impedance differences can mess with that signal. Not having ECC built into the HDMI spec doesn't really help either.  |
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Post by jmilton on Apr 22, 2010 12:12:47 GMT -5
I hate the fact that I'm going to spend more time writing disclaimer than talking about my suggestion, but apparently, it has to be done (and will likely get ignored). Disclaimer: This is not an effort to deflect any amount of credit (blame) toward Emotiva and the issues with the UMC-1. This is not a guaranteed, fool-proof, 100%, money-back, double-or-nothing offer. This is not an attempt to blame your system, your cables, your components, any other companies' products, your mother, or mine, for any of the problems that are experienced with the UMC-1, the XMC-1, the XDA-1, the LMC-1, the MMC-1Million, nor the Run DMC-1. This is a suggestion, based on some reading I've done, that may or may not help you. It may not help anyone. It may help several people. I do not know. I do not watch, listen to, own, touch, spin, throw, or otherwise partake in Blu-ray discs, media, platters, content, etc. I do not have any source material above 96KHz/2-channel. I am a human (usually). You are likely human, as well. This post is meant to possibly help those that are trying to improve their current experience with the UMC-1. It is not intended to solve world hunger. It should not upset you. If this post upsets you, please click the back button. Please do no flame me for offering up advice on what sounds like a plausible solution/scenario based on the anecdotal experience of others. It seems everyone with the HK receivers that use the Cirrus chips are having pretty much all the same issues we are. Sadly, they've been at for quite some time longer. I tried to read through the entire AVR 1600 2600 3600 owner's thread, and I found at several different times individuals posting that they resolved HDMI audio dropouts and video issues by using a higher quality HDMI cable. While most of these cables should all perform to task, HDMI is a consumer electronics specification, and is therefore subject to generally the lowest common denominator and manufacturers generally build to the lowest spec possible. I wonder if this is a case where one or another HDMI cable might make a difference in performance. As we know, with digital, you either get the right one's and zero's or you don't. What if low-quality cables are causing errors? These aren't computers, there is no method of determining exactly what's causing what problems. The processor might just not be getting enough correct binary data, and simply malfunction, or drop channels, etc. I think it's possible the newer DSP's have a lower tolerance for lower quality connections. Ann's post earlier today about the NAD's having similar issues with the latest MIPS dual-core DSP's tends to lend itself to this theory, as well. So, for those of you having troubles, if you aren't already 100% certain you have a super-duper quality cable, would it be possible to try a super-duper one? It's worth a shot, if you're up for it. Make sure you can return it first, of course, but I'd be really curious to see if shorter cables or higher quality HDMI cables might alleviate some issues, make them occur less often, or resolve them altogether. I'm using Kordz EVX series ($250/meter) and still have drops...  |
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Post by drno on Apr 22, 2010 12:20:27 GMT -5
hmmm, your not going to believe this but in my temporary setup i havent had an audio drop out issue( only the signal aquisition delay) from my Xtreamer media player yet and i am using a $30 Nextech Radio shack HDMI cable. I havent tested any other sources yet as this is the only device i have hooked up to my UMC-1 right now.
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Post by canadianbacon on Apr 22, 2010 12:21:59 GMT -5
^^^
Well, I guess that kills my next question.
I was wondering what makes a "High Quality" cable. I don't believe it to ever be purely a function of cost. Perhaps in my blissful ignorance i thought that if a cable meets the spec of HDMI 1.3, 1.3a or even 1.4 that it would perform in a system that is rated as any of those 3 flawlessly.
Yes... bliss.
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Post by carlp336 on Apr 22, 2010 12:23:00 GMT -5
to milton <== balla.
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Post by handfiler on Apr 22, 2010 12:37:33 GMT -5
I'm using Kordz EVX series ($250/meter) and still have drops... [/quote] They look likee they would enhance most decors. |
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Post by rogerm on Apr 22, 2010 13:38:07 GMT -5
Bill, thanks so much for all your efforts. I received my UMC-1 yesterday. I've not hooked it up yet because I've been having audio dropouts for quite some time with my Onkyo 705. I spoke to my satellite guy recently and he is coming next week to troubleshoot my cabling and Dish signal. He said that Dish lowered the signal strength on all their transmissions by 30 to 40%. I got into the menu and checked. My signal used to be in the high 80's now it is in the lower 50's. Is it the cause? Who knows, but it will eliminate one thing at least. He referred this article to me for further checks:
Intermittent Audio Dropouts When Using HDMI
An audio dropout occurs when the audio portion of your program stops and then restarts a second later. This phenomenon can be caused any of the following issues:
Faulty firmware
A weak signal
HDMI handshake sync problems
A faulty HDMI cable
Faulty HDMI ports or circuitry.
Each of these issues is discussed below.
Faulty Firmware
For some TV’s, you can fix the HDMI audio dropout problem with a firmware update. Please check Samsung’s Download Center to see if a firmware update is available for your television. To go to the Samsung Download Center, click here.
Weak Signal
Set-Top-Boxes (STB) can sometimes drop or lose transmitted signals because the signal is weak, causing an audio dropout. If this occurs frequently, have your cable or satellite company boast the signal you receive in your home or remove older cable wiring and cable splitters and replace them with lower Db loss cabling and splitters.
Companies that have this problem include but are not limited to:
Verizon
Comcast
Time Warner
Cable Vision
Dish Network
DirecTv
HDMI Handshake Sync
The HDMI connection from time to time goes through an HDCP (High-Bandwidth Digital Content Protection) verification process to make sure the content it receives is secure. Usually, the process does not create a problem. Sometimes, however, it can cause an audio dropout.
If audio dropouts are frequent, test the HDMI connection on your TV with another HDMI device. If the dropout does not occur with the other device, then the original device may be using an older HDCP protocol and the older protocol is causing the dropouts. Unfortunately there is no way to correct this except by updating your equipment. If it appears your cable box is causing the dropouts, contact your provider for new equipment.
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 22, 2010 13:43:45 GMT -5
rogerm, good points. The more I read about HDMI cables the more suspicious I'm becoming of them. It sounds like prior to 1.3a and newer players supporting increase bit-depths and upsampling of audio and video streams, many companies were "getting away with" selling subpar cables, claiming them to be higher quality than they are. Apparently, as we increase the attempted rates of transfer with newer device, both the cables AND the older devices become suspect. Some devices claim certain abilities, tolerances, bandwidth, and may not be able to deliver them, but the newer devices they get connected to negotiate that rate with them, then there are problems. Since the old device "used to work fine" newer equipment is getting blamed for what may be problems with older equipment. All speculation, of course, I'm just trying to learn as much as I can about this stuff.
I should note, I certainly don't think this is the case in the majority of circumstances with the Cirrus DSP's, they seem to be a common factor in many devices experiencing problems.
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Chris
Emo VIPs
Posts: 424
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Post by Chris on Apr 22, 2010 13:45:10 GMT -5
I wonder if this is a case where one or another HDMI cable might make a difference in performance. While everyone is free to speculate, I think this line of reasoning is ultimately wrong and wasteful of people's time. If HDMI cable quality is affecting the UMC-1 performance with regard to audio dropouts, etc. then I would expect other artifacts to evidence themselves such as the common "sparkles" and other defects. I am of course talking about normal length HDMI cables. Extra long cables exceeding the HDMI spec (30-50ft?) may well cause problems. Any competently built cable under say 10 to 15ft will perform identically IMHO regardless of price. Look, I'm an audiophile and I've spent ridiculous sums on all sorts of cables. I've also built my own cables and have never honestly heard or seen any difference of any measurable (not placebo) amount. That's just where I stand. The only difference I've seen is in the level of RF shielding. I recently was hooking up a new VPI Scout turntable and I chose a random set of "audiophile" cables I had lying around. I was unpleasantly surprised to hear a local AM radio station coming through my phono section. I eventually replaced the cables with a pair of Canare interconnects I buy from Markertek for about $10 a set. Bang, zero rf interference and no AM radio station. Clearly the Canare wire is better shielded in this case. Of course this all analog so it really doesn't apply. Unfortunately, I have seen a lot of the audiophile press bring some of their worse biases over from the analog to the digital world. The latest trend is that USB cables sound different when it comes to digital audio coming off a computer used for streaming digital audio. These same reviewers will make all sorts of wild claims about computer parts and digital audio. As soon as I see these statements I make a mental note this reviewers opinions should be treated as suspect. I've seen people claim that hard disks can make a difference in digital audio. As someone who made a career in computers, I know a little about how these things work. I am not a know it all but I am pretty experienced. Back to topic, the current UMC-1 V6 issues are simply the cause of some bad programming code and nothing else. In my case PL II, Neo 6 were working fine in V5 and now they are broken in V6. I got only occasional drop-outs with V5, now I get them all the time. So, what changed? I didn't change any of my cables. The only thing that changed was a firmware update. Lonnie and company have admitted in retrospect that the changes they tried to introduce with V6 had a cascade affect that they did not understand at the time and so code got broken. I'm sure they are systematically backing out the code they changed to understand where things broke. It should be straight forward to back out the changes for V6 and get to the bottom of this. I know the UMC-1 hardware is fundamentally sound because the product was practically bug free with UMC-1. I know I don't use EMO-Q so let's not rehash that here. I also think that less than 5% of the problems have to do with failed flash problems. I have stated before that I believe this is a red-herring that wasted a lot of people's time. I successfully flashed my UMC-1 twice using two different computers. Each time I experience the same known V6 bugs. The flash wasn't the problem, it was the bad programming code. I am sitting by patiently for Emotiva to issue some updated code possibly in Alpha Beta form. I expect things to improve going forward. I just hate to see people wasting time chasing down phantom issues that won't solve the problem. -CB |
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Post by jeffinmonterey on Apr 22, 2010 14:37:25 GMT -5
Bill, thanks so much for all your efforts. I received my UMC-1 yesterday. I've not hooked it up yet because I've been having audio dropouts for quite some time with my Onkyo 705. I spoke to my satellite guy recently and he is coming next week to troubleshoot my cabling and Dish signal. He said that Dish lowered the signal strength on all their transmissions by 30 to 40%. I got into the menu and checked. My signal used to be in the high 80's now it is in the lower 50's. Is it the cause? Who knows, but it will eliminate one thing at least. He referred this article to me for further checks: Intermittent Audio Dropouts When Using HDMI An audio dropout occurs when the audio portion of your program stops and then restarts a second later. This phenomenon can be caused any of the following issues: Faulty firmware A weak signal HDMI handshake sync problems A faulty HDMI cable Faulty HDMI ports or circuitry. Each of these issues is discussed below. Faulty Firmware For some TV’s, you can fix the HDMI audio dropout problem with a firmware update. Please check Samsung’s Download Center to see if a firmware update is available for your television. To go to the Samsung Download Center, click here. Weak Signal Set-Top-Boxes (STB) can sometimes drop or lose transmitted signals because the signal is weak, causing an audio dropout. If this occurs frequently, have your cable or satellite company boast the signal you receive in your home or remove older cable wiring and cable splitters and replace them with lower Db loss cabling and splitters. Companies that have this problem include but are not limited to: Verizon Comcast Time Warner Cable Vision Dish Network DirecTv HDMI Handshake Sync The HDMI connection from time to time goes through an HDCP (High-Bandwidth Digital Content Protection) verification process to make sure the content it receives is secure. Usually, the process does not create a problem. Sometimes, however, it can cause an audio dropout. If audio dropouts are frequent, test the HDMI connection on your TV with another HDMI device. If the dropout does not occur with the other device, then the original device may be using an older HDCP protocol and the older protocol is causing the dropouts. Unfortunately there is no way to correct this except by updating your equipment. If it appears your cable box is causing the dropouts, contact your provider for new equipment. Excellent article and information. Thank you. |
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Post by mlkmgr on Apr 22, 2010 17:33:15 GMT -5
rogerm,
the article listed in your post hit it perfectly "faulty firmware". the umc has faulty firmware, end of story....
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Post by mlkmgr on Apr 22, 2010 18:13:48 GMT -5
a little high and mighty on ourselves are we bill? lonnie admitted fault with the firmware, plain and simple. if others have fixed "their" problems with hdmi cables on different pieces of equipment, so be it. don't attempt to parlay cables into the firmware issues of the umc....
edit: nevermind, posts have been deleted...
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 22, 2010 18:22:35 GMT -5
a little high and mighty on ourselves are we bill? lonnie admitted fault with the firmware, plain and simple. if others have fixed "their" problems with hdmi cables on different pieces of equipment, so be it. don't attempt to parlay cables into the firmware issues of the umc.... edit: nevermind, posts have been deleted... I deleted the post myself, as I've decided that this is my response to you and others who don't quite seem to get it: High and mighty? Read the "wasting time" post above. How is offering suggestions of potential work-arounds for those that might be interested "high and mighty"? |
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Post by mlkmgr on Apr 22, 2010 18:39:37 GMT -5
i was simply responding to your post you had to CB that you deleted. you spoke highly of yourself and your suggestions. you then proceeded to claim that you will run to other forums and tell everyone else that has fixed their issues with different hdmi cables that they were wasting their time.
irregardless, you deleted said post so end of story....
edit: and while you believe you may be helping, in the end, posting information such as this thread does not help those frustrated with the umc. the umc, as i stated earlier and by lonnie, has faulty firmware. no hdmi cable will make a bit of difference with this.
however, if there are still issues after emo uploads v7 and are 110% certain it does in fact work this time, then other options are needed to be looked at. until then, you are simply making others potentially question whether their cables are up to par when there is no need to....
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Post by roadrunner on Apr 22, 2010 19:37:59 GMT -5
Many of the recently introduced products from vendors using all sorts of different chip vendors are experiencing similar problem to those of the UMC-1. Part of this is certainly attributable to faulty FW, and compatibility with newly introduced chip sets. What has received occasional mention is that the Licensing Bodies have changed the rules as to what they will allow under their Licensing Agreements. These changes require much more restrictive tolerances in all new equipment, and this is undoubtedly a major cause of the problems popping up.
For example, at Emofest last year, the UMC-1 was down right snappy in its handling of HDMI inputs. This was because Emotiva had employed buffering on all HDMI inputs that allowed instantaneous access to the buffered inputs. However, the new Licensing prohibits using buffered solutions under the guise averting piracy issues. The UMC-1 available at Emofest was not having the problems the current version has.
The rules of playing with HDMI and HDCP have become more restrictive and components that worked with older processors now have problems with the newest processors being released. Users naturally assume the new gear is at fault when what is really happening is that the older components do not adhere to the new, more restrictive rules for playing the game. The hard part is figuring out which of the problems being encountered are due to FW and which ones are being encountered because of the rule changes.
As long as Hollywood has a stranglehold on the rules for playing in this game the problem will continue to get worse. There is no end to their paranoia. You either play the game with their rules or you don't get a License to play at all.
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Post by annjones13 on Apr 22, 2010 20:34:24 GMT -5
+1
I think you may have identified some of what is going on, The receiver I have been using has never experienced the issues that many manufacturers are currently dealing with. I had planned to replace my receiver with a prepro that would be an improvement. I'm begining to wonder if I will need to keep it in reserve for back up duty. Some times just be satisfied with a working unit delivering less than the latest greatest Audio/ Video what ever.
Could the HDCP/HDMI requirements be less restrictive? Not llikely to happen unless consumers revolt big time.
Ann
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 22, 2010 20:49:12 GMT -5
i was simply responding to your post you had to CB that you deleted. you spoke highly of yourself and your suggestions. you then proceeded to claim that you will run to other forums and tell everyone else that has fixed their issues with different hdmi cables that they were wasting their time. irregardless, you deleted said post so end of story.... edit: and while you believe you may be helping, in the end, posting information such as this thread does not help those frustrated with the umc. the umc, as i stated earlier and by lonnie, has faulty firmware. no hdmi cable will make a bit of difference with this. however, if there are still issues after emo uploads v7 and are 110% certain it does in fact work this time, then other options are needed to be looked at. until then, you are simply making others potentially question whether their cables are up to par when there is no need to.... "irregardless" isn't a word. Irregardless of that, I don't think offering up potential ideas hurts. I'm sorry that you and some others are so upset that you aren't interested in healthy discussion over possible solutions, regardless of firmware version. If that's the case, I highly recommend you ignore all posts regarding the UMC-1 from anyone but Emotiva staff announcing the new firmware. Otherwise, you and those like you will just continue to get even more upset (for no reason). If the standards are becoming tighter, then lesser quality cables could certainly be causing issues if they aren't up to par. To completely, summarily dismiss the idea simply because there are other known issues makes no sense. This is like saying that if your car won't start it is completely 100% impossible that it's out of gas because you've already confirmed that the oil needs to be changed. |
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Post by BillBauman on Apr 22, 2010 20:50:07 GMT -5
As long as Hollywood has a stranglehold on the rules for playing in this game the problem will continue to get worse. There is no end to their paranoia. You either play the game with their rules or you don't get a License to play at all. Ronnie, great points and a well-thought-out post. |
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