UMC-1 Vs USP-1

[Pauly]

RPA could be right on this one. Sometimes certain pieces of gear just don't work out well in some systems. Part of the fun with this hobby, is finding the right pieces of gear that work well together to produce the right type of sound that you're looking for.

[eddieg07410]

I just inserted my old onkyo integra receiver into the system just to compare. And I found the sound with the receiver much better than the USP-1. While the sound from the receiver is a bit laid back there is no harshness on the top end. Also pianos sdound like pianos. I don't get the pvermodulation I get with the USp-1. I played Dark Side of the Moon and in the song money, the USP-1 didn't offer the distinctness of my receiver. All in all this is very disappointing and I will be xsending the unit back. The problem is I actually like the UMC-1 but will need to send that back as well a it has no phono capability.

[DYohn]

Jan 1, 2011 11:22:08 GMT -5 eddieg07410 said:

I just inserted my old onkyo integra receiver into the system just to compare. And I found the sound with the receiver much better than the USP-1. While the sound from the receiver is a bit laid back there is no harshness on the top end. Also pianos sdound like pianos. I don't get the pvermodulation I get with the USp-1. I played Dark Side of the Moon and in the song money, the USP-1 didn't offer the distinctness of my receiver. All in all this is very disappointing and I will be xsending the unit back. The problem is I actually like the UMC-1 but will need to send that back as well a it has no phono capability.

This is called personal preference and is the core of audio appreciation. We all like different things in our audio systems. It does not make one piece of gear any better nor any worse than another, it is simply that which you prefer. Congrats on discovering one of your preferences.

Me, I've never heard a piece of Onkyo gear that I liked. To each his own!

[RPA-1 man]

Jan 1, 2011 11:22:08 GMT -5 eddieg07410 said:

I just inserted my old onkyo integra receiver into the system just to compare. And I found the sound with the receiver much better than the USP-1. While the sound from the receiver is a bit laid back there is no harshness on the top end. Also pianos sound like pianos. I don't get the over modulation I get with the USP-1. I played Dark Side of the Moon and in the song money, the USP-1 didn't offer the distinctness of my receiver. All in all this is very disappointing and I will be sending the unit back. The problem is I actually like the UMC-1 but will need to send that back as well a it has no phono capability.

That's very odd because I really like piano music and have never experienced the "over modulation" you describe. I thought the USP-1 was capable of outputting at least 9 volts. One would be hard pressed to find a consumer line level source that could output that much signal and cause the USP-1 to be over driven or over modulated as you describe.

Have you spoken with support about what you are hearing? I would think that the difference in sound quality between the UMC and USP would not be that noticeable. At least not to a point where the USP would sound harsh or.

As Dyohn suggests, the Onkyo just may be your preference. We all expect great sound from our systems. The key is that great sound is a personal thing.

[eddieg07410]

My point is not that my 70's onkyo integra is so great, it is that the USP-1 by comparison sounds worse. The MMC-1's phono section clearly sounded better than both of them, and that was made by emotiva. Before I purchased the USP-1 I was assured by everyone who commented that the USP-1 would be an improvement over the MMC-1. As the reviews have been so o0verwhelmingly positive for the USP-1 is it conceivable that something in the circuitry of my unit might be awry. Is that possible?

[RPA-1 man]

I can't comment as to whether something may be awry in your system. I've heard many good things about the MMC-1 but have not heard it myself. All I can tell you is that every preamp I've hooked up in my system sounds different. It comes down to preference. Sometimes I even swap in my Carver C-1 pre for a week or so if I feel like listening to a more forward presentation. Than when I swap the USP-1 back in it does seem laid back. But I like the sound of it as well. For that reason I also believe that our mood has to do with what sounds good at the time.

My advice at this point is to call Emotiva support and tell them what you are experiencing. They may be able to tell by the other equipment in your system if this is to expected with the USP combo. They may swap the USP-1 out for you to try another one.

Have you tried different interconnects? If not try that if you have some kicking around. Some say that different interconnects change the sound of the system.

[cantonreference7]

I have compared the USP-1 with several AVR:s (one Yamaha, one Pioneer and three Onkyos), and the USP-1 beats them all with great marginal! The difference is huge and can be heard after a few seconds!

All of the AVR:s sounded detail-less, dull and unnatural in comparison. Worst of them all were the Onkyos (876, 906 and 5007), they had a treble that rolled off far too much to be enjoyable, and an undistinct bass! Best was the Pioneer (SC-LX72) which I bought and own. Though I don´t use it at all for 2-channel listening though as you probably have guessed already. It´s only powered when watching movies...

[broncsrule21]

I am hoping to add a USP-1 to my modest 2 channel set up soon. I currently have my ERC-1 running through my old Denon 3300 in direct mode. It sounds pretty darn good with good recordings. I actually prefer the my older 3300 for music than my newer 2808ci. (I also think it has a better amp section even though it is rated less powerful)

[Deleted]

I onwed an MMC-1 and found the sound to be super-detailed but with far too much sibilance for my taste. My H/K Signature 2.0 Prepro had a much more pleasing sound. Same with my UMC-1, it does not exhibit the harsh sibilance that the MMC-1 had. I'd be quite surprised if the USP-1 sounds much better than the UMC-1, the UMC-1 sounds quite good to my ears.

As for using a Phono with your UMC-1, it's really no problem. Simply buy an outboard Phono Preamp and use that to drive your turntable. That's exactly how I have my B&O turntable installed in my system and it works quite well...

-RW-

[roadrunner]

I have the MMC-1, the UMC-1, and the USP-1. The phono stage in the MMC-1 is very good -- better than any phono stage I have heard in receivers and better than most pre/pros. The UMC-1 doesn't have a phono stage built-in but its sound quality is better than the MMC-1's for both digital and analog signals. The UMC-1 is one of the best sounding pre/pros I have ever listened to. The USP-1 has an exceptional phono stage and has the best sounding analog performance I have heard. The USP-1 has the best overall sound quality of any Emotiva product thus far.

[Deleted]

Piano sounds better with the UMC-1 than it has with any of my former components, including analog.
To each their own.

[Deleted]

My Yamaha DSP-A1 was warm sounding but at a loss of dynamic range and "clarity" in comparison with the UMC-1. I didn't mind the sound of the Yamaha at all, it served to cover some "sins" and its ambiance enhancement was really terrific. I miss that but I wouldn't go back.

[dsnyder0cnn]

Please count me among the Emotiva customers who have gone the UMC-1/USP-1 combo route for their hybrid stereo/HT setup!

I was hoping to hold out for the XSP-1; balanced outputs would have opened the door to monoblocks (XPA-1's or Kavent P-2200's) down the road, but with the USP-1 on sale this week, I just could not not wait!!

Next on my shopping list is a new DAC. Earlier in this thread, I mentioned my interest in the Benchmark DAC1, but I'm also considering the Wyred 4 Sound DAC2, Mytek Digital Stereo192 DSD, and of course our beloved XDA-1. If I go the XDA-1 route, I'll mate it with an Audiophilleo1 USB to S/PDIF adapter to ensure that I feed it the least jitter possible and so that I'll have a display that actually tells me what the heck is going on!

It probably seems crazy to feed a $350 DAC with a $900 USB to S/PDIF adapter, but I honestly think that this combo will give the three $1.5k'ish options listed above a run for their money in terms of both sound quality and functionality.

I'm still rather disappointed that Emotiva did not include an "HT Bypass" on the XDA-1, but the strategy worked. I've bought the USP-1 so that I can have that precious button (and the pristine sound of a dedicated 2-channel playback system that seamlessly integrates with my HT rig). Now I just need to decide which DAC to use with it. :-)

-- David

[flyhigh]

David, I hope you're as pleased with your new USP-1 as I was. Perhaps the best compliment I can offer is that the USP-1 doesn't seem to have much of a sound. It sounds pretty much like what it's being fed...and that's a good thing in preamp land.

Even in my rather "challenging" listening enviroment, the Emo doesn't give me the feeling that it's altered anything.

I purchased mine mostly for the bass management, and to allow me to "gain stage" my source component a bit better.

It's quite impressive IMO, and I hope you reach the same conclusions.

Good Listening!

[hobbs]

Jan 1, 2011 11:22:08 GMT -5 eddieg07410 said:

The problem is I actually like the UMC-1 but will need to send that back as well a it has no phono capability.

As someone else mentioned, just get an outboard phono preamp to go with the UMC-1. I have the TCC TC-750

www.amazon.com/TC-750-BLACK-Audiophile-Phono-Preamplifier/dp/B000A36LQ4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1302097190&sr=8-1
phonopreamps.com/

It works beautifully with my modest system consisting of a Technics Direct Drive Turntable and powered Audioengine A5 speakers.

I am planning to buy an audio switch box so that I can also connect my CD player to my powered speakers.

Cheers

[dsnyder0cnn]

Well, I got the USP-1 setup last night and even with no burn-in and only an hour or so of warm-up time, it sounds glorious! I'm going to let it burn in for a hundred hours or so before I make any final judgments, but so far I have no complaints regarding its sound quality. I'm sure system synergy plays a role, but I can state with confidence that the sound of the USP-1 driving my McCormack DNA-1 power amp is quite a large step up from the UMC-1 even in "Direct" mode. The difference is so significant that I can not only identify which is which in a blind A/B test, I could probably tell them apart over the phone. LOL.

All is not rosy though, as I have posted elsewhere in these pages. The crippled HT Bypass functionality of the USP-1 is its Achilles heal and may prove to be a show-stopper for me, driving me to RMA it and wait to see if this senseless design flaw is addressed in the XSP-1. Oh how I'll suffer without it's wonderful sound in my system in the intervening months though. Decisions, decisions...

I'm not the only Emotiva customer who could have been spared this grief if they had only taken the time to adequately illuminate this functional limitation on the USP-1 specifications list and published manual. For example, nothing on page 14 below suggests that the full-range outputs are disabled when the "HT Bypass" input is selected:



From this discussion of the three connection options, a reasonable person would incorrectly assume that each offers the same functionality. However, Option 1 actually results in no sound from the front left/right in HT Bypass mode while Option 2 routes LFE and summed low pass right/left signals to the sub, sending nothing to the front left/right channels. Useless!

The same is true regarding the inadequately documented functionality of the USB input on the XDA-1, but that's a discussion for another thread.

-- David

[flyhigh]

David...that's a downer.

It is however noted in the USP-1 owners manual:

5. HT INPUT (Home Theater) Allows the USP-1 to connect to an external multi-channel/home theater processor. This connection is disengaged when the USP-1 is in normal mode, but becomes active when the HT BYPASS button is selected on either the USP-1 front panel or remote control. In HT BYPASS mode, this connection becomes active and the USP-1 becomes a pass-through for the left, right, and subwoofer channels. This is a true ‘straight wire’ pass-through – what comes in is what goes out.This signal is sent into the HT Input s (L,R, Sub), and is only present on the High Pass and Subwoofer Outputs.

The HT function is of no concern to me, but for those with HT systems, perhaps this arrangement should be more boldly stated.

I'm shooting from the hip since I don't know how you're system is arranged, but...if the USP-1 becomes a "pass-thru" in HT-Bypass mode, (and expects that your HT processor will manage the signal downstream) then it's internal filters should also be disabled thus allowing you to get a full range signal via the HP outputs. That's what I take from this description.

Maybe?

[dsnyder0cnn]

I agree with what you said, but the quote that you provided from page 11 (which I somehow missed when skimming the manual before my purchase) seems to be contradictory to this statement (and the discussion in general) on page 14:

There is no ‘wrong way’ or ‘right way’ to use these settings – it’s all about what sounds good to you, and
what works best with your speakers

Who would have imagined that they would disable the full-range outputs? I can't think of any reason for doing this.

Anyway, no use crying anymore about it. It is what it is, so my options are to either live with it, ship it back and wait for the XSP-1, or go buy something else.

Thanks.

-- David

[dsnyder0cnn]

Apr 7, 2011 19:48:00 GMT -5 flyhigh said:

...if the USP-1 becomes a "pass-thru" in HT-Bypass mode, (and expects that your HT processor will manage the signal downstream) then it's internal filters should also be disabled thus allowing you to get a full range signal via the HP outputs. That's what I take from this description.

In spite of what the manual says, the USP-1 is not a pass-thru in HT Bypass mode. It's bass management is analog and can not be disabled. If your front-channel amp is connected to the high-pass outputs on the USP-1, you're using it's bass management. (photos of XSP-1 samples suggest that there will be a switch for disabling bass management if desired).

When mating the UMC-1 with a down-stream USP-1, the idea is to configure the front left/right as full-range in the pre/pro. LFE plus the low pass information for any other speakers in the system that are not configured as full-range will enter the USP-1's subwoofer input. To that signal, the USP-1's internal analog bass management will add the summed low pass information from the signals that it receives on its "HT Bypass" left/right inputs. High pass information from those same left/right inputs are routed to the high pass left/right outputs (not the original full-range signal).

(Please note that the description in the preceding paragraph is actually not correct, as has been pointed out further down in this thread).

This setup works just fine for folks who have a 2.1 system that they want to marry to a home theater setup. If only Emotiva had left the full-range outputs on in HT Bypass mode, the USP-1 would also work perfectly for folks like me who prefer a full-range 2.0 system for music but still require seamless home theater integration.

-- David

[flyhigh]

OK...

I understand things like "straight wire pass-thru" and "What comes in is what goes out" to mean exactly that.

It might be advantageous for you (as well as others) to get on the phone with EMO at your first opportunity and get some hard core clarification of what is really coming out of the HP outputs in HT Bypass mode.

You're in Atlanta...not far from Nashville, and you have 30 days to kill with the USP-1.

It's an awfully nice sounding unit as you've discovered, and it would be a shame for an element of ambiguity in the wording of the manual to lead people astray. I've written audio component user manuals, and it's not easy to get it 100%!!

It's worth a few minutes on the phone I'd imagine.

Best wishes!