Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2010 2:56:13 GMT -5
Sounds to me like you got a BS in Philosophy! ;D ;D ;D
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Erwin.BE
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It's the room, stupid!
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Post by Erwin.BE on Aug 11, 2010 3:19:52 GMT -5
I went to the best schools, I went to College, I went to University, and I was top of my class in Philosophy; was even offered to teach it! Now, one thing I truly know, is that people like John are very important people for forums like these where discussions are to take place between various schools of toughts. Without that, without people like John, there would be no discussions at all, period! ...And that's what makes us advancing in life. ...On all aspects. When I went to school, the science teacher gave me the funny look when I told him that Money is the fourth dimension. Go figure!
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bootman
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Typing useless posts on internet forums....
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Post by bootman on Aug 11, 2010 8:46:16 GMT -5
EDIT:
Post deleted. No reason to stir the pot. My apologies to all.
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tubby
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Post by tubby on Aug 11, 2010 8:55:51 GMT -5
I have kind of poked my way though this thread so I hope this was not covered already. After reading John's last post I went to the UPA-5 product page and found this quote.
"The UPA-5 delivers 125 watts of continuous power with all channels driven. That's the key word. 'Continuous' means...well, just that. Continuous. Not a peak rating. Not the rating the amp achieves while being pushed to its limits, putting out a distorted and muddy sound. Continuous power means the amplifier is in its comfort zone, doing what's its designed to do - giving you an exceptional theater and music experience without breaking a sweat."
So regarless of the fact that nobody would ever need to run an amp with all channels driven at rated power for a continuous amount of time, Emotiva makes the claim that it can be. They also state that an AMP is never tested in that manner, which begs the question how can they make that claim?
Just some food for thought.
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Post by Tyler wants bass! on Aug 11, 2010 9:14:05 GMT -5
I have kind of poked my way though this thread so I hope this was not covered already. After reading John's last post I went to the UPA-5 product page and found this quote. "The UPA-5 delivers 125 watts of continuous power with all channels driven. That's the key word. 'Continuous' means...well, just that. Continuous. Not a peak rating. Not the rating the amp achieves while being pushed to its limits, putting out a distorted and muddy sound. Continuous power means the amplifier is in its comfort zone, doing what's its designed to do - giving you an exceptional theater and music experience without breaking a sweat." So regarless of the fact that nobody would ever need to run an amp with all channels driven at rated power for a continuous amount of time, Emotiva makes the claim that it can be. They also state that an AMP is never tested in that manner, which begs the question how can they make that claim? Just some food for thought. Every company does. Not just Emotiva. Music is not continous, test tones and other generated signals can be. Edit: I'm sure they could build a huge amp with some huge transformers and a ton of capacitance so people could run test tones into their HT system for hours on end. but the weight and cost would be crazy. ;D Then since it would be way overkill, and cost so much for the amp itself, then to ship, not many would purchase one and therefor be a useless product.
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Post by oat07 on Aug 11, 2010 9:29:18 GMT -5
There are many products on the market that make similar claims about performance, but the manufacturer knows that most people will assume they are talking about the extremes. My car has 130 MPH on the speedometer. Am I so foolish as to assume that I can push the car to that speed for long periods of time without problems. I totally agree that the wording is bad, but not understanding how amps work is just as bad. Why are the same individual complaining about this problem, not complaining to AVR producers about their crazy claims of power output. Some of them test with one channel driven on the amp.
The more I read this forum, the more I realize Emotiva gets a bad rap for some things. People will complain about everything if you give them a public forum. I have never heard any of these complains against other companies that produce amps. I believe some people trust a name more than the actual performance and quality of a product. Even amps costing $10,000 or more have these limitations.
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Post by eljaycanuck on Aug 11, 2010 9:48:36 GMT -5
I'm still hoping for a definitive answer to my question in post #35, re-iterated in post #69: Which tests in the 8-ohm PDF for the UPA-5 demonstrate the following: - "Full power with all channels driven across the entire frequency spectrum." and - "125 watts of continuous power with all channels driven."
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tubby
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Route 2 in Weekapaug!!!
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Post by tubby on Aug 11, 2010 9:55:05 GMT -5
There are many products on the market that make similar claims about performance, but the manufacturer knows that most people will assume they are talking about the extremes. My car has 130 MPH on the speedometer. Am I so foolish as to assume that I can push the car to that speed for long periods of time without problems. I totally agree that the wording is bad, but not understanding how amps work is just as bad. Why are the same individual complaining about this problem, not complaining to AVR producers about their crazy claims of power output. Some of them test with one channel driven on the amp. The more I read this forum, the more I realize Emotiva gets a bad rap for some things. People will complain about everything if you give them a public forum. I have never heard any of these complains against other companies that produce amps. I believe some people trust a name more than the actual performance and quality of a product. Even amps costing $10,000 or more have these limitations. If you agree the wording is bad then why defend it? Just because other companies make false claims Emotiva can too? Your car analogy is not the same. I doubt your models marketing collateral states you can run at 130MPH continuously with no problem, infact it probabaly says the opposite, that you should obey local spead limits. The Emotiva claim does not infer using at extremes it leads the reader to believe the AMP would be in its comfort zone not at its limit. Amp power claims are the most picked apart spec in AV gear. Companies a raked over the coals all the time for mistating numbers. Companies that do it get a reputation for doing it. I don't want Emotiva to be one of those companies. They have a reputation for publishing conservative ratings and honestly stating specs, I would prefer it stays that way.
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Post by Dan Laufman on Aug 11, 2010 10:10:35 GMT -5
Gentlemen, I'm not going to get in a war of words here, and I'm not going to delete this gentleman's post. It's not necessary. I've said nothing that I want to take back. It is clear to me that his knowledge of accepted test methods for audio amplifiers is not complete. I also know that he is sincere in his desire to uncover or reveal the truth as he sees it.
I love the fact that people are interested in and passionate about this hobby. Knowledge is great, but sometimes the interpretation of known facts without enough detailed knowledge or experience in a given field can lead to conclusions that are not correct.
This gentleman feels that he has uncovered something that is simply a non-issue. I do not want to have to spend the next two weeks having a fruitless dialog on this subject. His understanding of duty cycle as a legitimate design parameter and an element in the testing of consumer amplifiers tells me this. He clearly believes what he believes, and nothing I'm going to say is going to change this.
If he feels that his UPA-5 does not meet his rigorous requirements, or that it has somehow been sold to him under false pretenses, then call us and we'll refund the purchase price, including freight. We do not deceive our clients, or lie to them. We do not ask people to keep products they do not want. Period.
I might suggest that if he truly wants to uncover deceptive advertising and spend some time "uncovering" false or misleading claims in the audio industry, there is fertile ground for discovery. Measure your typical AV receiver and tell me what you learn. See what that 7x120 watt receiver from XYZ company does when you test it according to your rigorous standards! You might be very surprised by what you find!!
Or better yet, measure a few of those subwoofers on the market with those amazing, almost unbelieveable power specs. See what you come up with there. That'll be good for a laugh.
I can tell you that there is gold in then thar' hills!
If your looking for fire, follow the smoke. You're in the wrong place here.
Respectfully, Big Dan
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Post by eljaycanuck on Aug 11, 2010 10:18:34 GMT -5
Any chance of a reply to post #126? I'm not questioning the power ratings or the claims, I would just like to know which test or tests support those claims. Thanks!
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Post by oat07 on Aug 11, 2010 10:33:45 GMT -5
There are many products on the market that make similar claims about performance, but the manufacturer knows that most people will assume they are talking about the extremes. My car has 130 MPH on the speedometer. Am I so foolish as to assume that I can push the car to that speed for long periods of time without problems. I totally agree that the wording is bad, but not understanding how amps work is just as bad. Why are the same individual complaining about this problem, not complaining to AVR producers about their crazy claims of power output. Some of them test with one channel driven on the amp. The more I read this forum, the more I realize Emotiva gets a bad rap for some things. People will complain about everything if you give them a public forum. I have never heard any of these complains against other companies that produce amps. I believe some people trust a name more than the actual performance and quality of a product. Even amps costing $10,000 or more have these limitations. If you agree the wording is bad then why defend it? Just because other companies make false claims Emotiva can too? Your car analogy is not the same. I doubt your models marketing collateral states you can run at 130MPH continuously with no problem, infact it probabaly says the opposite, that you should obey local spead limits. The Emotiva claim does not infer using at extremes it leads the reader to believe the AMP would be in its comfort zone not at its limit. Amp power claims are the most picked apart spec in AV gear. Companies a raked over the coals all the time for mistating numbers. Companies that do it get a reputation for doing it. I don't want Emotiva to be one of those companies. They have a reputation for publishing conservative ratings and honestly stating specs, I would prefer it stays that way. I am not defending them, but more so being a little more realistic. People use products all the time with badly worded or misleading claims. I believe whoever created the "continuous" line meant to say under normal continuous operating conditions, but this is just my opinion. Since you didn't like my previous example, here is another. Wireless routers are unable to operate at there rated performance claims due to distance, environment, etc.. Network switches cannot operate within their rated speed due to overhead. Most AVRs cannot generate the amount of amps stated. These are everyday facts that people have come to accept or just don't care about. Why does the industry as a whole get a free pass and Emotiva crucified for doing the same things. When I shop for products, I try to make sure that the product can at least perform reasonably at its given spec. I don't expect gigabit switches to provide 1gb (half duplex) of performance, but close to the industry standard which is of course flawed. I don't expect wireless routers to perform at the stated speed, but close to the flawed industry way of measuring things. Sorry for the large post, but I hope my point is a little clearer. I believe Emotiva was carried away with the wording, but no one makes amp that are able to due this for standard home theaters.
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twilkins
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Sometimes it's to your advantage for people to think you're crazy -
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Post by twilkins on Aug 11, 2010 10:36:18 GMT -5
My emo amps SOUND fine. They DO everythng they're advertised to do. I have NEVER had a clipping issue. They hardly get WARM and I play at loud volumes. I DON'T understand most of the technical issues NOR do I want to. It's a great product delivered at a great price. I don't blindly follow Emotiva. I'm more than happy with my Integra DHC 40.1 vs the UMC-1. But when it comes to amps what more could I ask for ? I think Dan & Lonnie have more than adequately addressed this issue. OP should ask Onkyo/Integra how they come up with their specs. Doubt you'll get a management response.
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Post by oat07 on Aug 11, 2010 10:43:25 GMT -5
My emo amps SOUND fine. They DO everythng they're advertised to do. I have NEVER had a clipping issue. They hardly get WARM and I play at loud volumes. I DON'T understand most of the technical issues NOR do I want to. It's a great product delivered at a great price. I don't blindly follow Emotiva. I'm more than happy with my Integra DHC 40.1 vs the UMC-1. But when it comes to amps what more could I ask for ? I think Dan & Lonnie have more than adequately addressed this issue. OP should ask Onkyo/Integra how they come up with their specs. Doubt you'll get a management response. +1 Most vendors will not tell you what size transformer they use or what size caps they have. I wonder why. Instead they give a lot of inaccurate info about there amps, especially AVR vendors. Also, has anyone noticed what the features race is doing to AVR specs. The features are getting better, but the amp sections are shrinking.
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Post by monkumonku on Aug 11, 2010 10:51:20 GMT -5
My emo amps SOUND fine. They DO everythng they're advertised to do. I have NEVER had a clipping issue. They hardly get WARM and I play at loud volumes. I DON'T understand most of the technical issues NOR do I want to. It's a great product delivered at a great price. I don't blindly follow Emotiva. I'm more than happy with my Integra DHC 40.1 vs the UMC-1. But when it comes to amps what more could I ask for ? I think Dan & Lonnie have more than adequately addressed this issue. OP should ask Onkyo/Integra how they come up with their specs. Doubt you'll get a management response. Here here! I am by no means an electronics expert, but from what I can see and hear, Emotiva makes quality stuff. Take a look at any of their amps, outside and inside. These things are built solid. When you compare the insides to other brands, you can see where the others skimp on things. Even with speakers - while you may not care for the way they sound (for example, I did sell my Emo speakers because I preferred something else), there was no denying the quality of construction. I did the Ninja upgrade to my 6.2's so I had to open them up to remove the speakers and crossovers. I could tell how much care went into making them - there was an obvious attention to making this a quality product, no skimping! I haven't opened any amp but I've seen pictures, plus you can tell just by how heavy they are (and the weight is due to the parts, not by putting rocks in them) and also how cool they run that these are quality products. Me, I go by what I hear and my overall experience with the product, not by whatever test specs and esoterica people might endlessly pontificate about that have no bearing in the real world. If my car gets me to where I want to go, I could care less about the specs of the engine. If my car outperforms other cars in terms of mileage, speed, reliability, etc., then I could care less if the other car has "better" specs than mine. In the real world, it is how it performs for me. I am a happy Emotiva customer and I have no doubt that I've definitely gotten my money's worth.
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Aug 11, 2010 21:05:52 GMT -5
Sounds to me like you got a BS in Philosophy! ;D ;D ;D That's right, a Baccalaureate in Sciences (BS). ...And a BP too. _____________________________________ - Erwin, Money ain't dimensional, it's an illusion. _____________________________________ - Bootman, it's advancing in life when you acquire knowledge from reading the unknown and misunderstood posting. _____________________________________ By the way, where's John?
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Post by wattsup on Aug 11, 2010 22:29:40 GMT -5
The whole argument put forth boils down to semantics... what does one think of when they read the word 'continuous'. I say it will depend upon the individual however I didn't purchase based on that statement and I don't think most Emo purchasers do. It's value and reputation. It was obvious from the beginning someone was just spoiling for a fight... too much time on one's hands can do that. The whole 'this is my final post' and 'I know my post will be deleted' falls under delusions of grandeur... you're not that important guy and you're certainly not going to sway opinions... you're high on yourself buddy. I'm really surprised the good folks at Emotiva could take time from their busy jobs to entertain the fella. Whatever...
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Aug 12, 2010 0:01:09 GMT -5
I knew it was out there, it just took me some time to dig through and find it. According to the DIN 45000 specification for testing amplifiers "Continous" power output is defined as... "Power measurement of an amp requires that the amp is properly terminated by Ohmic resistances of nominal value both at input and output. The continous power is measured when the amp is supplied by its normal power supply. It must then be able to deliver the rated power at 1 kHz for at least 10 minutes while the maximum THD does not exceed 1 %." All of our amplifiers will easily exceed this specification adn in fact our own internal testing is far more rigorous. I knew the spec was out there, but I didn't want to say anthing until I found it so I could quote it correctly. In short, all of our amps meet the "Continous" spec. Just thought everyone would like to know.
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stiehl11
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Give me available light!
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Post by stiehl11 on Aug 12, 2010 0:06:28 GMT -5
My emo amps SOUND fine. They DO everythng they're advertised to do. I have NEVER had a clipping issue. They hardly get WARM and I play at loud volumes. I DON'T understand most of the technical issues NOR do I want to. It's a great product delivered at a great price. I don't blindly follow Emotiva. I'm more than happy with my Integra DHC 40.1 vs the UMC-1. But when it comes to amps what more could I ask for ? I think Dan & Lonnie have more than adequately addressed this issue. OP should ask Onkyo/Integra how they come up with their specs. Doubt you'll get a management response. Here here! I am by no means an electronics expert, but from what I can see and hear, Emotiva makes quality stuff. Take a look at any of their amps, outside and inside. These things are built solid. When you compare the insides to other brands, you can see where the others skimp on things. Even with speakers - while you may not care for the way they sound (for example, I did sell my Emo speakers because I preferred something else), there was no denying the quality of construction. I did the Ninja upgrade to my 6.2's so I had to open them up to remove the speakers and crossovers. I could tell how much care went into making them - there was an obvious attention to making this a quality product, no skimping! I haven't opened any amp but I've seen pictures, plus you can tell just by how heavy they are (and the weight is due to the parts, not by putting rocks in them) and also how cool they run that these are quality products. Me, I go by what I hear and my overall experience with the product, not by whatever test specs and esoterica people might endlessly pontificate about that have no bearing in the real world. If my car gets me to where I want to go, I could care less about the specs of the engine. If my car outperforms other cars in terms of mileage, speed, reliability, etc., then I could care less if the other car has "better" specs than mine. In the real world, it is how it performs for me. I am a happy Emotiva customer and I have no doubt that I've definitely gotten my money's worth. Love the sound of my XPA-5... it's loud enough for me (and my neighbors) and is a dream to listen to. I can hear the buzz of the reed on a sax, I can hear the squeal of the tires on a open wheel race on TV. I don't care what the "specs" say: I didn't buy my amp for the name or the specs. I bought it for what it sounds like.
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Post by brand450 on Aug 12, 2010 0:07:03 GMT -5
YAY now this thread can be put to rest (for the 1% of posters that were actually concerned).....until someone else brings this up in about 4 months and we have to recycle the conversation. Good Night, thanks Lonnie for the update on the spec.
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Aug 12, 2010 0:19:42 GMT -5
I'm still hoping for a definitive answer to my question in post #35, re-iterated in post #69: Which tests in the 8-ohm PDF for the UPA-5 demonstrate the following: - "Full power with all channels driven across the entire frequency spectrum." and - "125 watts of continuous power with all channels driven." Although the spec you are asking for is not directly shown, it is easy to derive. On page 6 of the AP report you will see that there is less than .08% deviation across the band. This spec does not change at any power level so when you look at page 3 which shows power output of all channels driven, it will have the same power band response even at that level. Hope this helps.
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