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Post by billmac on Aug 11, 2010 14:29:39 GMT -5
Lonnie, If it is not that much difficult to have the narrow band EQ included to the XMC-1 why not? With proper documentation in the manual letting owners know that it is complicated and if they are not capable of using it then use Emo-Q. At least those that do have the experience have the option to use it as part of the XMC-1's operating system. I would have to disagree with you that a majority of end users of either the UMC-1 or the XMC-1 would find the narrow band EQ overly complicated. I mean Emotiva has indicated that the UMC-1 and the XMC-1 will be audiophile grade prepros. So I can not see why Emotiva would not want to cater to those that have the capabilities. If one does not have those capabilities or the need to use a narrow band EQ do not have to use it. Emotiva went to great lengths to have an excellent analog section in the UMC-1 so why not have EQ functions to match? Bill
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Post by ghstudio on Aug 11, 2010 14:53:57 GMT -5
Lonnie, If it is not that much difficult to have the narrow band EQ included to the XMC-1 why not? With proper documentation in the manual letting owners know that it is complicated and if they are not capable of using it then use Emo-Q. At least those that do have the experience have the option to use it as part of the XMC-1's operating system. It's not that easy because you have to add the narrow bands to the upper bands in the code and that's likely not trivial. You also have to do auto eq of them if you offer auto eq. So I suspect that given where the XMC is in the design process, this just is too late. (I'm not saying it's wrong....it's just too late) This was an Emotiva design decision on what is important to what they believe is their target market segment. There are lots of things they could do if they wanted to appeal to more audio savy folks with deeper pockets, but they are designing to a price point. I suggested and continue to suggest that they consider a true audio processor as a follow on the XMC..if it makes financial sense.
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Post by petes on Aug 11, 2010 15:01:52 GMT -5
...but the $2500 solution produces far far better sound in my difficult to tune audio room. .... I guess you get what you pay for..... The interim solution does look very interesting though (accepting the distance issue). All the reviews of it are very positive - might well be worth a try ...... Anyone else used one?
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Post by ghstudio on Aug 11, 2010 15:12:37 GMT -5
it is worth trying, because a) you will improve the bass in your room; and b) you will better understand tuning and you might consider doing some things to your room to make it a more acoustically friendly place and c) the price to try is minimal.
REW software is free, the behringer units can be had for under $100 used (depending on the model you buy the dsp 1124p is the most popular, and the cheapest)), you can use the RS sound meter as a microphone, but you would be far better off spending the $60 to buy and ECM-8000 microphone...and you'll need some USB preamp (there are many options). Spend about $200, give it a try and then if you don't like it, sell the stuff which you wisely bought used and it's cost you about nothing. That's a pretty good deal.
Focus on tuning the sub...don't worry about the rest of the frequencies.
Note...going this route is not as simple as pushing "start" on an automatic equalizer...you'll have to learn how to run REW software (not all that easy) and you'll have to manually set the Parametric EQ's yourself....but you know, you'll learn a lot....go for it.
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Post by Stevens on Aug 11, 2010 15:23:18 GMT -5
The interim solution does look very interesting though (accepting the distance issue). All the reviews of it are very positive - might well be worth a try ...... Anyone else used one? From the Absolute Sound Magazine (August 2010): Plus, there's also this review: linkNow, please don't think I have an interest in hawking these. I've tried it, measured the effect as I went along and ended up returning it since it didn't add much to my system that Audyssey couldn't do by itself. Still a nifty little box, though, if your processor/amp doesn't have a decent built-in correction system.
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pczach
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Post by pczach on Aug 11, 2010 15:24:06 GMT -5
When I bought my Rythmik sub, I decided to get the PEQ amplifier rather than the balanced version. Even though having a balanced connection is the best way to go for a number of reasons, having control of the sub's sound was much more important to me. I figured that at least I can control what the sub puts out, even if the pre/pro it's connected to won't or can't do it effectively. Sometimes you have to plan ahead in your purchases so that you give yourself the most flexibility down the road. I think we should all know by now that you almost never get exactly what you want in the audio/video world we live in. We'd all like to, but it almost never happens. Let's hope that the XMC-1 surpasses many of our expectations, and meets most of our needs. That's the hope of this realist.
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Post by moodyman on Aug 11, 2010 15:49:39 GMT -5
it is worth trying, because a) you will improve the bass in your room; and b) you will better understand tuning and you might consider doing some things to your room to make it a more acoustically friendly place and c) the price to try is minimal. REW software is free, the behringer units can be had for under $100 used (depending on the model you buy the dsp 1124p is the most popular, and the cheapest)), you can use the RS sound meter as a microphone, but you would be far better off spending the $60 to buy and ECM-8000 microphone...and you'll need some USB preamp (there are many options). Spend about $200, give it a try and then if you don't like it, sell the stuff which you wisely bought used and it's cost you about nothing. That's a pretty good deal. Focus on tuning the sub...don't worry about the rest of the frequencies. Note...going this route is not as simple as pushing "start" on an automatic equalizer...you'll have to learn how to run REW software (not all that easy) and you'll have to manually set the Parametric EQ's yourself....but you know, you'll learn a lot....go for it. REW can be configured to automatically set the required EQ's on the behringer...
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Post by ghstudio on Aug 11, 2010 15:54:50 GMT -5
Depends on which model behringer you get...
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Post by flamingeye on Aug 11, 2010 16:49:15 GMT -5
BFD 1124 with MIDI and REW works damn good with 2 subs
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Post by Topend on Aug 11, 2010 17:05:53 GMT -5
When I bought my Rythmik sub, I decided to get the PEQ amplifier rather than the balanced version. Even though having a balanced connection is the best way to go for a number of reasons, having control of the sub's sound was much more important to me. I figured that at least I can control what the sub puts out, even if the pre/pro it's connected to won't or can't do it effectively. Sometimes you have to plan ahead in your purchases so that you give yourself the most flexibility down the road. I think we should all know by now that you almost never get exactly what you want in the audio/video world we live in. We'd all like to, but it almost never happens. Let's hope that the XMC-1 surpasses many of our expectations, and meets most of our needs. That's the hope of this realist. I went the opposite way to you and got the XLR Rythmik amp. My reason is I can have a longer cable run to position the sub anywhere in my room. Also the PEQ can only correct one peak. If your room has more than one peak it would be a problem. I also have the SMS-1. Dave.
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pczach
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Post by pczach on Aug 11, 2010 17:23:48 GMT -5
When I bought my Rythmik sub, I decided to get the PEQ amplifier rather than the balanced version. Even though having a balanced connection is the best way to go for a number of reasons, having control of the sub's sound was much more important to me. I figured that at least I can control what the sub puts out, even if the pre/pro it's connected to won't or can't do it effectively. Sometimes you have to plan ahead in your purchases so that you give yourself the most flexibility down the road. I think we should all know by now that you almost never get exactly what you want in the audio/video world we live in. We'd all like to, but it almost never happens. Let's hope that the XMC-1 surpasses many of our expectations, and meets most of our needs. That's the hope of this realist. I went the opposite way to you and got the XLR Rythmik amp. My reason is I can have a longer cable run to position the sub anywhere in my room. Also the PEQ can only correct one peak. If your room has more than one peak it would be a problem. I also have the SMS-1. Dave. My post wasn't taking a shot at anyone that didn't get the PEQ model. I was just giving an example of being disappointed in a new piece of equipment that was supposed to solve all your problems. In the event it doesn't meet your needs, it's nice to have something in the chain that can help you get by. I'm sure many got the XLR model because they assumed(rightfully so) that their pre/pro would handle all bass equalization beautifully in their setup. It's too bad it didn't work out for some people. I'm sure many are very happy with the results, but some obviously are not.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Aug 11, 2010 17:38:23 GMT -5
I simply don't like what I'm reading lately on this thread with regards to the base management for the XMC-1. I'm not a tecchie. I'm not even a diehard audiophile (based on the original meaning of being a subjectivist). I'm a guy who loves music and can greatly appreciate music played from a well tuned system. I don't have unlimited space in my theater rack either to accommodate the many bass paraphernalia that would be needed in order to guarantee good, accurate bass!
I was sincerely hoping that the XMC-1, would be a one box solution that would have base management and auto room correction a la audyssey, only done Emo style, and with most of the other features listed in this thread that would make it usable/current for at least the next 3 years.
My one hope now is this: Some one had earlier mentioned that the XMC-1 was going to be THX certified, and that would make the base management issue moot. Is that true?
If the XMC-1 does not have effective room correction & base management, HD Radio tuner & active HDMI, then I will just have to live with the UMC-1 until another pre/pro turns me on!
jamrock
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Post by Topend on Aug 11, 2010 17:39:13 GMT -5
I went the opposite way to you and got the XLR Rythmik amp. My reason is I can have a longer cable run to position the sub anywhere in my room. Also the PEQ can only correct one peak. If your room has more than one peak it would be a problem. I also have the SMS-1. Dave. My post wasn't taking a shot at anyone that didn't get the PEQ model. I was just giving an example of being disappointed in a new piece of equipment that was supposed to solve all your problems. In the event it doesn't meet your needs, it's nice to have something in the chain that can help you get by. I'm sure many got the XLR model because they assumed(rightfully so) that their pre/pro would handle all bass equalization beautifully in their setup. It's too bad it didn't work out for some people. I'm sure many are very happy with the results, but some obviously are not. I wasn't taking a shot, just engaging in some friendly conversation. I thought it would be interesting to see what bass management avenue I went with, that's all. Cheers, Dave.
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Post by billmac on Aug 11, 2010 17:41:53 GMT -5
I went with the F12SE with the PEQ and I'm glad I did. I have a peak around 42Hz that the PEQ was helpful in lowering. I also have the Anti-Mode 8033 that is also helpful when combined with Audyssey. The 8033 works very good for EQing the F12SE when I am using my Parasound 2100 which has no form of EQ. The biggest part of learning how to EQ my sub was the use of REW. With the help of a few members over at the Home Theater Shack it made using REW that much easier to understand. It was quite a learning curve as I am not the most gifted person around a computer . REW opened my eyes to the way my sub interacts with my room. I am still a beginner when it comes to EQing my sub but I'm learning alot. The SQ differences with my sub EQd better is really worth the effort especially with 2CH music. Bill
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Post by ghstudio on Aug 11, 2010 17:56:51 GMT -5
The amazing thing about a well equalized sub is that you don't even know it's there. I was listening to a movie last night and casually walked over to my sub to check if it was on...I thought all the sound was just coming from my mains and surrounds. As I leaned over, I saw that the grill cloth was moving about 1" back and forth and putting my hand on the sub, I could feel the vibrations. The sub was that transparent.
I was using an Audyssey Sound Equalizer (external box)...UMC-1 was set to flat EQ. All crossovers set to 80hz....sub crossover in UMC-1 set to 120hz (to capture all the LFE content)
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Post by jdskycaster on Aug 11, 2010 19:28:30 GMT -5
Been away from this thread for some time but missed a ton! Great that Lonnie has shed some additional light on the XMC-1 bass management. Bad news is it appears to be the same as the UMC-1.
I hope there will be an attempt at a second generation which will incorporate fully functional auto room correction and a more flexible bass management solution. The UMC/XMC-1 will fit the bill for some but I will just have to wait and look forward to the future:)
Best Regards,
JD
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2010 0:33:10 GMT -5
All crossovers set to 80hz....sub crossover in UMC-1 set to 120hz (to capture all the LFE content) Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong here. I understand that the sub crossover determines the frequency for which the low bass is re-directed from the speakers (the 5 in 5.1) to the sub. However, the low bass in the LFE signal (the .1 channel in the 5.1 soundtrack) is all sent to the sub regardless of the frequency, the sub crossover does not affect it. The max frequency of the LFE signal is 120Hz. That is a brick wall with no roll-off as there is no signal whatever above 120Hz. In actual practice there is very little LFE signal above 80Hz or so as any signal present rolls-off steeply before reaching 120Hz. Thus the re-directed low bass from the speakers is combined with the LFE signal and sent to the sub. (This is all presuming of course that you have properly set the speakers to "small" as they should be and are not running the speakers as "large" or "full range.") Therefore you need not raise the sub crossover to 120Hz because it does not affect the LFE signal at all. You should set it at 80Hz. As you have it now (at 120Hz) the speakers and the sub are "doubling up" (both playing) the frequencies from 80-120Hz. With the sub crossover at 80Hz you should have more defined bass in the 80-120 range and the sub will still be receiving the full LFE signal.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Aug 12, 2010 3:18:21 GMT -5
When I bought my Rythmik sub, I decided to get the PEQ amplifier rather than the balanced version. Even though having a balanced connection is the best way to go for a number of reasons, having control of the sub's sound was much more important to me. I figured that at least I can control what the sub puts out, even if the pre/pro it's connected to won't or can't do it effectively. Sometimes you have to plan ahead in your purchases so that you give yourself the most flexibility down the road. I think we should all know by now that you almost never get exactly what you want in the audio/video world we live in. We'd all like to, but it almost never happens. Let's hope that the XMC-1 surpasses many of our expectations, and meets most of our needs. That's the hope of this realist. Agreed, I am actually happy now that I got the PEQ Rythmik (as it was on special) rather than the XLR one I originally wanted. It has meant I can get a flatter response for music with the UMC-1 - that said, it is still not perfect and even a GEQ would be helpful at this point.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Aug 12, 2010 3:24:19 GMT -5
The amazing thing about a well equalized sub is that you don't even know it's there. I was listening to a movie last night and casually walked over to my sub to check if it was on...I thought all the sound was just coming from my mains and surrounds. As I leaned over, I saw that the grill cloth was moving about 1" back and forth and putting my hand on the sub, I could feel the vibrations. The sub was that transparent. I was using an Audyssey Sound Equalizer (external box)...UMC-1 was set to flat EQ. All crossovers set to 80hz....sub crossover in UMC-1 set to 120hz (to capture all the LFE content) This is another question, does the sub crossover setting on the UMC-1 pass anything higher back to the mains? I think it might. I noticed reading specs from my sub the other day that it really tops out at 90Hz (I had like you set the XO to 120 for the stated reason) so I switched it to 90Hz and now the mid-bass is much smoother and explosions etc. actually seem to have more slam. So I think the sub was rolling some stuff off and now it is coming out of the mains and is smoother/better. I will be doing REW tests on this when the new FW comes out.
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Post by ghstudio on Aug 12, 2010 6:56:44 GMT -5
All crossovers set to 80hz....sub crossover in UMC-1 set to 120hz (to capture all the LFE content) Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong here. I understand that the sub crossover determines the frequency for which the low bass is re-directed from the speakers (the 5 in 5.1) to the sub. However, the low bass in the LFE signal (the .1 channel in the 5.1 soundtrack) is all sent to the sub regardless of the frequency, the sub crossover does not affect it. The max frequency of the LFE signal is 120Hz. That is a brick wall with no roll-off as there is no signal whatever above 120Hz. In actual practice there is very little LFE signal above 80Hz or so as any signal present rolls-off steeply before reaching 120Hz. Thus the re-directed low bass from the speakers is combined with the LFE signal and sent to the sub. (This is all presuming of course that you have properly set the speakers to "small" as they should be and are not running the speakers as "large" or "full range.") Therefore you need not raise the sub crossover to 120Hz because it does not affect the LFE signal at all. You should set it at 80Hz. As you have it now (at 120Hz) the speakers and the sub are "doubling up" (both playing) the frequencies from 80-120Hz. With the sub crossover at 80Hz you should have more defined bass in the 80-120 range and the sub will still be receiving the full LFE signal. Bass is crossed over to the sub based on the crossover settting for each speaker....it has nothing to do with the sub crossover setting. LFE is supposed to have an upper limit of 120hz, however there are some recordings where it exceeds that, so setting the sub crossover to 120hz is to protect my speakers, just in case. I don't recall if you can set the crossover points if you define your speaker as large (usually you can't)....so yes, I have set the speakers to small.
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