BIG 10.2 or MEDIUM 11.2 Surround?

[Erwin.BE]

OK, just for fun: If you would set up a multi speaker HT with Audyssey DSX, would you prefer 10.2 with two XPR-5 brutes? Or would you rather have 11.2 with the also not very flimsy XPA-5 pair complemented with a UPA-1 for the center?

Note that both solutions are 10RU combined!

Answer 1 is 400 Watts / channel
Answer 2 is 200 Watts / channel

Also, both setups are in the same price range because the money saved by choosing XPA/UPA (answer 2) would necessitate an additional investment in a good 11th Back Surround speaker.

1/ 10.2 link: www.audioholics.com/education/surround-sound/audyssey-dsx-10.2
2/ 11.2 link: www.audyssey.com/technology/dsx.html

Where it says 11.1, always assume 2 subwoofers, because I am building them as we speak!
Most speakers would be 3-way towers, rated round the 200 Watts / 8 ohm...

[glock3540]

Hi Erwin.BE,
Not sure which way to tell you to go, but I will say I have 11.1/3 (11.1 with 3 subs but the 4810 only has 1 subwoofer output so used a splitter to feed the other 2 subs).
I tell you, I lived with 5.1/7.1 for years and really liked it. Now that I have 11.1/3,
I never want to go back. It is kind of like driving a V-6 Mustang. You really enjoy it
and think it is great until you drive the V-8 version.
Just my opinion. (BTW; I am using 4 of the 4810's internal amps to power the
heights and wides and it sounds great. Not sure how good it would sound without
my EMO amps helping out.)

Blessings,
Brian

[flamingeye]

I say 11.2 because I have 11.2 system and love it when I blow one of my hight speakers I really started to miss it after 2 weeks and when it was up and running again I realized it does make a big difference after all

[Erwin.BE]

Aug 18, 2010 21:24:19 GMT -5 glock3540 said:

Hi Erwin.BE,
Not sure which way to tell you to go, but I will say I have 11.1/3 (11.1 with 3 subs but the 4810 only has 1 subwoofer output so used a splitter to feed the other 2 subs).
I tell you, I lived with 5.1/7.1 for years and really liked it. Now that I have 11.1/3,
I never want to go back. It is kind of like driving a V-6 Mustang. You really enjoy it
and think it is great until you drive the V-8 version.
Just my opinion. (BTW; I am using 4 of the 4810's internal amps to power the
heights and wides and it sounds great. Not sure how good it would sound without
my EMO amps helping out.)

Blessings,
Brian

Brian, thanks for your opinion. To date the Denon 4810 is of course the only way to use enjoy more than 9 channels simultaneausly. But I am hoping that by the time our HT is finished enough to receive the equipment, a 11.1 pre-pro is avalable. I am sure Dolby is not sitting on it's ass and are preparing a kind of Width channels of their own, to compete with DSX. And Dolby is far wider spread than Audyssey. So I am hoping this pre-pro will be Emotiva.

Anyway, I still am not convinced that two vs one Back Surround is so much better (unless the speaker is installed to close to the listener). I would rather have only two amps. but it strcuk me that version 2 is also only 10RU in total, so why not?

[Erwin.BE]

Aug 18, 2010 21:39:34 GMT -5 flamingeye said:

I say 11.2 because I have 11.2 system and love it when I blow one of my hight speakers I really started to miss it after 2 weeks and when it was up and running again I realized it does make a big difference after all

I hear ya, but the question is 11.2 with two Backs, or 10.2 with one Back only?

[Nemesis.ie]

My 2 cents - 2 back surrounds are better if you have a wide room. They should not be massively far apart though. I think THX actually has them side by side.

So a bit of gap for better dispersion in a wide room seems right.

Edit: Also consider 5 x mono-blocks across the front for better chanel separation - or maybe just 3 for LCR.

P.S. what speakers are you planning, if 4 Ohm you will get 300W from UPA-1/XPA-5. Finally is there for sure an XPR-5 coming and how do you know how much it will cost?

[Erwin.BE]

Aug 19, 2010 7:24:46 GMT -5 Nemesis.ie said:

My 2 cents - 2 back surrounds are better if you have a wide room. They should not be massively far apart though. I think THX actually has them side by side.

So a bit of gap for better dispersion in a wide room seems right.

Edit: Also consider 5 x mono-blocks across the front for better chanel separation - or maybe just 3 for LCR.

P.S. what speakers are you planning, if 4 Ohm you will get 300W from UPA-1/XPA-5. Finally is there for sure an XPR-5 coming and how do you know how much it will cost?

Nemesis.ie,

You are correct for the wide room. But what's a wide room and what's not, hé? I'd like as few amps as possible. Ultimate channel separation is no priority since I have a 2 channel system also (with the Jamo's). OTOH, option 2 would enable to separate LCR: UPA-1 for the center and a XPA-5 for each side (L+R). For HT, I like the idea of big shared power suply's...

I have my eye on DIY speakers named "Jensen" from a design by Troels Gravesen. These are 3-way towers. 200 Watt / 8 ohm would do the trick but why not go for more? The info on the XPR was in a webcast. You have the XPR-7 for $1999 and the XPR-5 and XPR-2 "scaled down in price from that".
XPR-7 is 300 Watt+
XPR-5 is 400 W
XPR-2 is 500 W
Transformer is 3,300 VA for all... yummie!

BTW, did you know I was born on St-Patrick's Day? And my daughter's name is Evelyn, the English version of Eileen, a very Irish name? How about that, huh? Never been closer to Ireland than Anglesey though!

[Nemesis.ie]

IMO, wide = probably 5m+

I find the increased channel separation nice with movies too.

I am conisdering 1 x XPA-5 for each side of the room (surrounds/widths/heights) as the less expensive option whenever Emotiva get an 11.x system out. Or I may go with 7 x UPA-1 and keep the XPA-5 for the backs and heights or whatever.

I may also just pair the XPA-5 with the UMC-1 and get 11 x UPA-1s at that point - probably a year or two off yet and maybe we will be looking at 13 or more channels by then (rear heights, depths, center height?). ;-)

[flamingeye]

Aug 19, 2010 5:54:58 GMT -5 Erwin.BE said:

Aug 18, 2010 21:39:34 GMT -5 flamingeye said:

I say 11.2 because I have 11.2 system and love it when I blow one of my hight speakers I really started to miss it after 2 weeks and when it was up and running again I realized it does make a big difference after all

I hear ya, but the question is 11.2 with two Backs, or 10.2 with one Back only?

O ok all I can say is there was a deference when I went from 6.1 to 7.1 it was not a hug difference but enough to make me want to never go back to just one and I wouldn`t say you need a big room to justify two back speakers I would say you would at lest want the back speakers to be at least 3 to 4 feet apart though other wise way bother they would not be far enough apart to make a difference so I guess if the room is really really small one would be enough

[Erwin.BE]

Aug 19, 2010 9:06:40 GMT -5 Nemesis.ie said:

IMO, wide = probably 5m+

I find the increased channel separation nice with movies too.

I am conisdering 1 x XPA-5 for each side of the room (surrounds/widths/heights) as the less expensive option whenever Emotiva get an 11.x system out. Or I may go with 7 x UPA-1 and keep the XPA-5 for the backs and heights or whatever.

I may also just pair the XPA-5 with the UMC-1 and get 11 x UPA-1s at that point - probably a year or two off yet and maybe we will be looking at 13 or more channels by then (rear heights, depths, center height?). ;-)

Well, the room includes a kitchen and a dining zone (it's a second living room really) and the total width is 8m40 (28'). Depth is 6m60 (22'). I'd say the actual (open plan) listening zone width is 6m30 (21')...

Is that the house in Poland you are talkin' about?

[NorthStar]

Aug 18, 2010 21:24:19 GMT -5 glock3540 said:

Hi Erwin.BE,
Not sure which way to tell you to go, but I will say I have 11.1/3 (11.1 with 3 subs but the 4810 only has 1 subwoofer output so used a splitter to feed the other 2 subs).
I tell you, I lived with 5.1/7.1 for years and really liked it. Now that I have 11.1/3,
I never want to go back. It is kind of like driving a V-6 Mustang. You really enjoy it
and think it is great until you drive the V-8 version.
Just my opinion. (BTW; I am using 4 of the 4810's internal amps to power the
heights and wides and it sounds great. Not sure how good it would sound without
my EMO amps helping out.)

Blessings,
Brian

Huh Brian, excuse me but the Denon AVR-4810CI has three (3) subwoofer output jacks no?
...Or is it a single mono subwoofer channel that supports up to three subwoofers?
* Nope, it is indeed three sub preouts on the rear (page 14 of the manual), that output the same mono subwoofer audio signal, by simply summing them up.
> No need of a 'splitter' (Y connector) here.

_________________________

Erwin, I'd go for 11.2-channel, actually 12.4 (with a sub near each corner or in the middle of each wall, depending on the best balanced response in your own room, plus with the help of digital parametric EQs, of course, or with two Audyssey separate Sub-EQs with FIR filtration, and preferably with Audyssey MultEQ XT 32).
--> Height channels: Five of them, in-ceiling ones.

[glock3540]

Hi,
My manual reads that a maximum of 3 subs can be connected at the same time. All 3 subs get the same exact signal, no gain trims, no time delay offsets,etc.
I cannot remember exactly how I have mine connected.
I wonder why the manual states a "maximum" of three subs
if they are all receiving the same signal?
I was toying with the idea of adding an large eD sub or two in the future but not sure now.....

Blessings,
Brian

[NorthStar]

Aug 19, 2010 20:43:18 GMT -5 glock3540 said:

Hi,
My manual reads that a maximum of 3 subs can be connected at the same time. All 3 subs get the same exact signal, no gain trims, no time delay offsets,etc.
I cannot remember exactly how I have mine connected.
I wonder why the manual states a "maximum" of three subs
if they are all receiving the same signal?
I was toying with the idea of adding an large eD sub or two in the future but not sure now.....

Blessings,
Brian

Brian, I just edited my post above by adding to it.
Page 14 from your 4810's manual is very clear on that: 3 sub preouts, all called SW, from the back of your receiver, and indeed outputting the same exact audio mono signal.

* After I read your original post, I said to myself, "Wait a minute here", he does not need any 'splitter' (Y connector) for up to 3 subs! Sooo, here it is now!

Regards,
Bob

[Erwin.BE]

Aug 19, 2010 19:59:20 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Aug 18, 2010 21:24:19 GMT -5 glock3540 said:

Hi Erwin.BE,
Not sure which way to tell you to go, but I will say I have 11.1/3 (11.1 with 3 subs but the 4810 only has 1 subwoofer output so used a splitter to feed the other 2 subs).
I tell you, I lived with 5.1/7.1 for years and really liked it. Now that I have 11.1/3,
I never want to go back. It is kind of like driving a V-6 Mustang. You really enjoy it
and think it is great until you drive the V-8 version.
Just my opinion. (BTW; I am using 4 of the 4810's internal amps to power the
heights and wides and it sounds great. Not sure how good it would sound without
my EMO amps helping out.)

Blessings,
Brian

Huh Brian, excuse me but the Denon AVR-4810CI has three (3) subwoofer output jacks no?
...Or is it a single mono subwoofer channel that supports up to three subwoofers?
* Nope, it is indeed three sub preouts on the rear (page 14 of the manual), that output the same mono subwoofer audio signal, by simply summing them up.
> No need of a 'splitter' (Y connector) here.

_________________________

Erwin, I'd go for 11.2-channel, actually 12.4 (with a sub near each corner or in the middle of each wall, depending on the best balanced response in your own room, plus with the help of digital parametric EQs, of course, or with two Audyssey separate Sub-EQs with FIR filtration, and preferably with Audyssey MultEQ XT 32).
--> Height channels: Five of them, in-ceiling ones.

12.4?

I am still building (well, temporally suspended...) two huge sub-towers (500 liter LLT concept from HTshack.com) and this should do, as the room has restrictions! You mad man! I am crazy enough as it is.

The (drywall) ceiling is suspended and the LR Heights and the one or two Back Surrounds are indeed meant to be put in that ceiling. The other seven are towers. That's eleven! Where would the fifth in-ceiling go? And which processor would have this posibility?

[moparmudder]

I have been considering doing the height channels. But only extra speaks I have that fit the bill are some cheap Yamaha book shelf, don't know how they would pair up with my Rocket 760's? I do have a pair of Rocket 550's but I think they are a little huge to use as a height channel?

Also I was wondering how big of rooms people have in order to use the wide channels? My room is 14'-9" wide which I thought was pretty good size. My fronts are about 22" from the side wall which really doesn't leave room for wide channels does it?

[Erwin.BE]

Aug 20, 2010 13:15:21 GMT -5 moparmudder said:

I have been considering doing the height channels. But only extra speaks I have that fit the bill are some cheap Yamaha book shelf, don't know how they would pair up with my Rocket 760's? I do have a pair of Rocket 550's but I think they are a little huge to use as a height channel?

Also I was wondering how big of rooms people have in order to use the wide channels? My room is 14'-9" wide which I thought was pretty good size. My fronts are about 22" from the side wall which really doesn't leave room for wide channels does it?

Side channels are supposed to go on the side walls and to give the impression of a "wide" room...

[NorthStar]

Aug 20, 2010 11:34:51 GMT -5 Erwin.BE said:

Aug 19, 2010 19:59:20 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Huh Brian, excuse me but the Denon AVR-4810CI has three (3) subwoofer output jacks no?
...Or is it a single mono subwoofer channel that supports up to three subwoofers?
* Nope, it is indeed three sub preouts on the rear (page 14 of the manual), that output the same mono subwoofer audio signal, by simply summing them up.
> No need of a 'splitter' (Y connector) here.

_________________________

Erwin, I'd go for 11.2-channel, actually 12.4 (with a sub near each corner or in the middle of each wall, depending on the best balanced response in your own room, plus with the help of digital parametric EQs, of course, or with two Audyssey separate Sub-EQs with FIR filtration, and preferably with Audyssey MultEQ XT 32).
--> Height channels: Five of them, in-ceiling ones.

12.4?

I am still building (well, temporally suspended...) two huge sub-towers (500 liter LLT concept from HTshack.com) and this should do, as the room has restrictions! You mad man! I am crazy enough as it is.

The (drywall) ceiling is suspended and the LR Heights and the one or two Back Surrounds are indeed meant to be put in that ceiling. The other seven are towers. That's eleven! Where would the fifth in-ceiling go? And which processor would have this posibility?

1. Straight ahead above your head.

2. None! ...Yet. ;D Actually Yes, the "Smart CS-3X" processor, which derives an overhead "Height" channel from the Side Surrounds.

* Here: @ www.smartdevicesinc.com/cs3xjr.html

- And: @ www.smartdevicesinc.com/overhead.html

- Review: @ www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_1/smart-theater-cs3x-processor-march-2000.html

_____________________

...And for more sophistication, IOSONO: @ www.iosono-sound.com/

-> That's a 384.8-channel surround sound system!
...Which are 384 DISCRETE satellite speakers, plus 8 DISCRETE subwoofers!
Fill up your 'pipe' and smoke it! ;D

[ausman]

11.3 would be my choice..

a mono block solution

11 xpa-1's
or
11 upa-1's

4 amp solution

4 xpa-3's

5 amp solutions

1 xpa-1
4 xpa-2
or
1 upa-1
4 xpa-2

3 amp solution

1 xpa-5
2 xpa-3

as for the xpr line if you went the 2 xpr-5 route you will still need to use either a upa-1 or xpa-1 for center channel.

going the xpr-7 + 5 xpr route using the xpr-7 to handle front l/r, front height l/r, center, front wide l/r, with xpr-5 handling the rear and rear surrounds with 1 channel no being used..

the only other option in using xpr's in 11 channel is to use 1 xpr-5 + 2 xpa 3's if you are looking a matched output setup on your amp choices are:

option 1

11 upa-1/xpa-1

option 2

1 xpa-5
2 xpa-3


for 11 channel in a 2 amp configuration the only option would be to develop a 6 channel amp, otherwise you're looking at a min of a 3, 5 or 11 amp setup..

the cheapest amp configuration is an xpa-5 with 2 xpa-3 amps.. next is 11 upa-1, next is 1 upa-1 & 4 xpa-2, next is 1 xpa-1 & 4 xpa-2, next is 11 xpa-1, with the xpr-7+5 the last 2 in price..

until the xpr line comes out fully it is simply a waste of time using them in a 11 channel setup and to start comparing them with what's already available is a folly in speculation...

[Erwin.BE]

Aug 20, 2010 22:30:25 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Aug 20, 2010 11:34:51 GMT -5 Erwin.BE said:

12.4?

I am still building (well, temporally suspended...) two huge sub-towers (500 liter LLT concept from HTshack.com) and this should do, as the room has restrictions! You mad man! I am crazy enough as it is.

The (drywall) ceiling is suspended and the LR Heights and the one or two Back Surrounds are indeed meant to be put in that ceiling. The other seven are towers. That's eleven! Where would the fifth in-ceiling go? And which processor would have this posibility?

1. Straight ahead above your head.

2. None! ...Yet. ;D Actually Yes, the "Smart CS-3X" processor, which derives an overhead "Height" channel from the Side Surrounds.

* Here: @ www.smartdevicesinc.com/cs3xjr.html

- And: @ www.smartdevicesinc.com/overhead.html

- Review: @ www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_1/smart-theater-cs3x-processor-march-2000.html

_____________________

...And for more sophistication, IOSONO: @ www.iosono-sound.com/

-> That's a 384.8-channel surround sound system!
...Which are 384 DISCRETE satellite speakers, plus 8 DISCRETE subwoofers!
Fill up your 'pipe' and smoke it! ;D

Above the head: I might have guessed that one...
That IOSONO is pretty cool stuff, but I think I only could fit in about 253 speakers...

[Nemesis.ie]

From reading about the CS-3X Jr it looks quite interesting, I note that they suggest a 2 x 2 setup for the ceiling, it actually supports stereo presence (ceiling) speakers (or you can switch it to mono) so you could have 13.x. I am very tempted to try and stick my 2 spare ERD-1s to the ceiling a bit left and right of the listening position with the tweeters pointed front/rear if they will ship me one of these units.

There are on ebay at $75. Maybe someone can pick up one for me and ship it to Ireland if the seller will not ship here (I have emailed them).

They suggest using very disperse speakers, so something like the ERD-1 might be better than in-ceiling ones unless you can put in an array of at least 2 x 2 or 4 in mono.

I have a spare chanel on my XPA-5, so I might just try 1 x ERD-1 at the listening position for starters and see what it does (if it even picks up any signal).

I am also curious to try using the sub-woofer output with my unused MA 10" sub near/behind the listening position.

If I can get one in for €100 inc shipping it would be worth a try I think.

Edit: The ebay seller will ship for $45, so that puts it right on €100. I think I'll give one a whirl.