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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2010 14:28:29 GMT -5
This a questions for the Emotiva engineers. What's in the amps of companies like: Nu force, Krell, Mark Levinson, etc, to have them cost so much? What technology are they using which Emotiva clearly does not have due to Emo's pricing? Do those engineers get payed way better than the Emotiva engineers to justify the price hikes? Please give me an insight to the madness. May God Bless you guys at Emotiva. A really remarkable company.
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Post by monkumonku on Sept 1, 2010 14:37:07 GMT -5
This a questions for the Emotiva engineers. What's in the amps of companies like: Nu force, Krell, Mark Levinson, etc, to have them cost so much? What technology are they using which Emotiva clearly does not have due to Emo's pricing? Do those engineers get payed way better than the Emotiva engineers to justify the price hikes? Please give me an insight to the madness. May God Bless you guys at Emotiva. A really remarkable company. Well I am not an Emo engineer or employee, just an owner of their equipment but I would say a large part of what makes up the difference in price can be attributed to chutzpah.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 1, 2010 14:40:49 GMT -5
This a questions for the Emotiva engineers. What's in the amps of companies like: Nu force, Krell, Mark Levinson, etc, to have them cost so much? What technology are they using which Emotiva clearly does not have due to Emo's pricing? Do those engineers get payed way better than the Emotiva engineers to justify the price hikes? Please give me an insight to the madness. May God Bless you guys at Emotiva. A really remarkable company. High-end costs are largly driven by manufacturing chain mark ups, cost recovery, expected market size and brand equity. Plus in some circles - epsecially in the high end audio world - cost is considered a status symbol...
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Sept 1, 2010 14:43:10 GMT -5
This a questions for the Emotiva engineers. What's in the amps of companies like: Nu force, Krell, Mark Levinson, etc, to have them cost so much? What technology are they using which Emotiva clearly does not have due to Emo's pricing? Do those engineers get payed way better than the Emotiva engineers to justify the price hikes? Please give me an insight to the madness. May God Bless you guys at Emotiva. A really remarkable company. Well I am not an Emo engineer or employee, just an owner of their equipment but I would say a large part of what makes up the difference in price can be attributed to chutzpah. Chutzpa... I love saying that word... Chutzpa... Hutzpa.... HoodSpa... ShootsPa... WhosePa.... Chutzpa is one of my favorite words in the American English "lexicon"!
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Post by Porscheguy on Sept 1, 2010 14:58:39 GMT -5
Well I am not an Emo engineer or employee, just an owner of their equipment but I would say a large part of what makes up the difference in price can be attributed to chutzpah. Chutzpa... I love saying that word... Chutzpa... Hutzpa.... HoodSpa... ShootsPa... WhosePa.... Chutzpa is one of my favorite words in the American English "lexicon"! Chutzpa is not an American word at all. It is actually Hebrew meaning you "have some balls or audacity" .....
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RadTech
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Post by RadTech on Sept 1, 2010 14:58:59 GMT -5
For many it's all about bragging rights. I could buy a Polo t shirt or a Nike for 4 times less money. Both made of equal quality, probably in the same factory but, one costs big bucks for a name.
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Post by paintedklown on Sept 1, 2010 15:02:13 GMT -5
This topic has been brought up quite a bit here on the forums, and I am no expert, but the general consensus is that the main reason for the low cost on Emotiva amplifiers are due to Emo being an Internet direct company. There are several factors to consider however. Emo has a man named Lonnie who is their "mad scientist" so-to-speak. He is the R&D team and is VERY skilled at what he does. Since Emo is does not have a team of engineers they are saving money there. Also, Emotiva began as an OEM manufacturer for larger, more expensive brands. What this means is the Emo "team" would design and build products, then those products would be housed in the "shell" of the other companies choosing and branded (and sold) as such. Having all of that experience in developing and manufacturing products certainly has helped them along. The factories used to build Emo products are part of the Emo company. Someone please correct me if I am wrong about this but I believe the factories are indeed owned by Big Dan and are utilized to manufacture not only Emo gear but the re-badged gear Emo develops and makes. Advertising costs. Since Emotiva are an Internet direct company they have very little advertising costs. With products this good, word of mouth is about all you need. Small crew. Emotiva have a relatively small crew (outside the factories) and this helps to keep costs down as well. If you have ever called to Emotiva you will realize that almost anyone can (and does) answer the phone there! Job duties are probably sort of shared here and there. And finally, the largest contribution to the low cost is that Emo products are NOT sold at a retail outlet. The cost of getting a product into the consumers hands is tremendous when using traditional retail methods. As the product passes through the hands of the various people it would traditionally go through before it reaches your hands, they each add to the final cost of the product. As far as amplifier technologies go, I am sure Lonnie has a firm grasp on whatever may be available at the moment, also what is in development that looks promising. I honestly feel that if you spend as much money to buy an amp as you would to buy a car, then you have spent too much. Buy an Emo, cut out all of the middle men, and save yourself thousands, literally! Hope that helps explain the great Emotiva pricing.
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Sept 1, 2010 15:09:23 GMT -5
Chutzpa... I love saying that word... Chutzpa... Hutzpa.... HoodSpa... ShootsPa... WhosePa.... Chutzpa is one of my favorite words in the American English "lexicon"! Chutzpa is not an American word at all. It is actually Hebrew meaning you "have some balls or audacity" ..... Yes, I realize it's a Hebrew (Yiddish origin) word but is commonly used in American English. I'd never heard of it before when I lived in the UK or Australia/NZ.
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Post by Porscheguy on Sept 1, 2010 15:12:48 GMT -5
Chutzpa is not an American word at all. It is actually Hebrew meaning you "have some balls or audacity" ..... Yes, I realize it's a Hebrew (Yiddish origin) word but is commonly used in American English. I'd never heard of it before when I lived in the UK or Australia/NZ. I knew that you knew that..... :-)
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kse
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Post by kse on Sept 1, 2010 15:35:51 GMT -5
I doubt the original poster (or anyone else) is jaded enough not to know that one significant reason Emotiva's prices are as competitive as they are is due to factory direct, internet availability.
What I believe the original poster is looking for is; from a engineering/technological standpoint, what is it (outside of avoiding retail and the inevitable mark-up that comes with it) that makes companies such as the ones he listed, cost sooooooooo much more, when on paper they are very much alike
It's a great question. I am sure the term 'trade-secrets' will be a deflection to diffuse this from ever really being answered, which is fair, but I sure as heck would love to know as well.
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Post by monkumonku on Sept 1, 2010 15:43:01 GMT -5
I doubt the original poster (or anyone else) is jaded enough not to know that one significant reason Emotiva's prices are as competitive as they are is due to factory direct, internet availability. What I believe the original poster is looking for is; from a engineering/technological standpoint, what is it (outside of avoiding retail and the inevitable mark-up that comes with it) that makes companies such as the ones he listed, cost sooooooooo much more, when on paper they are very much alike It's a great question. I am sure the term 'trade-secrets' will be a deflection to diffuse this from ever really being answered, which is fair, but I sure as heck would love to know as well. Well like in the case of that rebadged, er, reboxed Oppo BDP-83, the trade secret is how did they fit the thing in the box. ;D
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 1, 2010 15:59:03 GMT -5
I doubt the original poster (or anyone else) is jaded enough not to know that one significant reason Emotiva's prices are as competitive as they are is due to factory direct, internet availability. What I believe the original poster is looking for is; from a engineering/technological standpoint, what is it (outside of avoiding retail and the inevitable mark-up that comes with it) that makes companies such as the ones he listed, cost sooooooooo much more, when on paper they are very much alike It's a great question. I am sure the term 'trade-secrets' will be a deflection to diffuse this from ever really being answered, which is fair, but I sure as heck would love to know as well. It's exactly what I described: it's about cost recovery on the one hand and prestige and market perception on the other. Yes, there are some engineering tricks and some higher quality components that some brands employ, but those alone do not cause $150 worth of parts to cost $10K retail. It's because on the one hand, if Krell only plans to sell 100 pieces of something they have $500K invested in developing, and they want to make a profit, they have to charge ultra-premium prices. Plus, if Krell (or whoever) wants to protect (or create) "high-end brand value," by pricing higher than the average they create the perception of higher than average value. High-end audio is a *VERY* different world from consumer audio. High-end customers want certain things from their gear, and costing a significant amount is one of those, if only for the value perception that creates.
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woodworker
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Post by woodworker on Sept 1, 2010 16:07:19 GMT -5
I doubt the original poster (or anyone else) is jaded enough not to know that one significant reason Emotiva's prices are as competitive as they are is due to factory direct, internet availability. What I believe the original poster is looking for is; from a engineering/technological standpoint, what is it (outside of avoiding retail and the inevitable mark-up that comes with it) that makes companies such as the ones he listed, cost sooooooooo much more, when on paper they are very much alike It's a great question. I am sure the term 'trade-secrets' will be a deflection to diffuse this from ever really being answered, which is fair, but I sure as heck would love to know as well. Here's my list of factors that cause this situation to be the case: Many of the things already mentioned- direct to consumer marketing scheme, R&D is, at least partially, paid for by other parties who they design and build products for, low advertising costs, etc. The higher priced "well known" brands might have technology (or pseudo-technology) inside that is patented or trademarked. Although this technology may not be any different or better than another brand's, the legal and marketing aspects of patenting and/or trademarking technology is expensive and that is rolled into the product sell price. Emo uses only one or two cases for their amplifiers. They can order this case in bulk rather than having to pay the higher pricing of smaller volume that most of the high end manufacturers might pay. The ultra-cool aesthetics of many of the "high end" brands come at an ultra high price when you think about the materials and workmanship that goes into those 50 pound aluminum cases. Most "high end" brands that sell through distribution protect their dealers by not allowing internet sells and not setting up distributors within a territory that is already served by established dealers. This is fantastic and I applaud this loyal behavior but it does add to the cost of the product. Furthermore there are often costs associated with becoming a dealer of these products sometimes including franchise fees, inventory, product damages and loss, and others. Not to mention the advertising and associated overhead of running a local dealership. These costs all go into the sell price of these higher priced products. Finally, although their may be differences from one manufacturer's product to another (which can be said about almost any product on the market), the real test is the listening test. I am convinced that no matter how much you pay for a "high end" branded home theater amplifier of comparable rating you are not going to get better sound quality than with and Emo amp. You might get different sound, but not something that fits my definition of better sound (flatter frequency response, higher S/N ratio, more dynamic headroom, lower THD, etc.). I am sure that there are others that will disagree but I know where I will continue to spend my dollar when it comes to amplifiers. That's my thought on the matter.
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cgolf
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Post by cgolf on Sept 1, 2010 16:12:16 GMT -5
It's like anything--why do so many people pay premium for Bose or Monster?
Emo doesn't have a 10 or 20 year warranty on their products, but I am sure happy with their amps so far.
I am no expert but I do not believe that the high end amp manufacturers have $1000's worth of higher end parts in their amps. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find out who really manufactures what!!! ;D
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woodworker
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Post by woodworker on Sept 1, 2010 16:17:38 GMT -5
EDIT- smart a$$ comment removed ;D
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2010 16:34:12 GMT -5
I think that Emotiva amps do a great job of meeting the point of diminishing returns for most users. On AVS a poster recently asked which was better a Outlaw 7125 or a Emotiva upa-7. While the some of the components in the Outlaw seem superior (namely the power supply) I was unable to tell any difference in sound quality in my system. Same thing for the Outlaw 7200 and the Emotiva xpa-5. I am sure that the fact that Outlaw is made in the U.S. has alot to due with cost as well but to me the rather large price difference did not yield an increase in sound quality
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kse
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Post by kse on Sept 1, 2010 18:07:35 GMT -5
These are all great responses. An interesting topic to say the least. I know they have products that attract me, as well as some that I wouldn't touch with a 10' pole, but we'll leave that alone.
What surprises me somewhat, is that another co. hasn't sprung up within the industry by copying Emotiva's business model and started to offer their own dynamite equipment at competitive pricing.
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Post by john72953 on Sept 1, 2010 18:29:54 GMT -5
Outlaw and Odyssey come to mind.
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Post by Mr. Ben on Sept 1, 2010 19:44:13 GMT -5
Besides the higher markups already mentioned, there are some valid reasons for higher cost. Some brands use designs that simply cost more to implement. For example, if a design generates more heat, it needs bigger heat sinks. Emotiva's older class-H amplifiers were a more expensive design compared to today's XPA/UPA amps, as are tube designs. Some brands use more expensive components, such as higher grade capacitors. Some manufacture in more expensive countries, such as the US or UK instead of China. Some brands are partially or mostly made by hand, with labour-intensive component matching.
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Erwin.BE
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Post by Erwin.BE on Sept 2, 2010 4:01:31 GMT -5
We all know the lean and internet based business model is key, together with the low cost Chinese production.
But those big names do make some nice things for the rich and famous. As long as they are not simply re-badging other stuff but bolt together amazing gear, that's fine by me and I will read the reviews with great pleasure. I have no idea how much a Pass Lab amp costs, but they sure look nice! Or take Classé: those nice round shapes are very sexy.
Fact is the only thing fancy on Emotiva products is the two slats on the faceplate. Take the Standby button. It's plastic. Every time you power up your XPA-1, you are reminded that these are in essence products that were made with an eye for the budget. In short: Emotiva is no true luxury product. Instead, it's aimed toward the "normal" audiophiles with average income who can't afford to waste money. These folks want the best possible sound for their limited budget. That plastic button does not degrade the sound, but it does degrade the total experience if I am honest.
My budget is a bit more than average, I guess, but I only buy second hand high end like my Jamo's. Or take my ex-demo Weiss DAC2, which is in fact a pro DAC that is priced 2/3 of the technically identical high end Weiss Minerva. I love luxury! True luxury products add a certain "je ne sais quoi"... at a price!
An Aston Martin is not performing better because it has a glass start button, but a Ford Ka ignition key just would not be acceptable.
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