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Post by leonski on Mar 27, 2015 14:25:30 GMT -5
It would seem that MOST amps with conventional power suppliess are restrained in some fashion BY the power conditioner. Even the High Current outlets of me KiloBuck+ Panamax didn't seem to pass enough current for my modest (125x2 or 130x2 @8) Rotel amp. While the power conditioner when hooked up for the FIRST TIME produced such a dramatic result that I had to Realign the speakers. Image was improved. Background was 'blacker'. (pop ears to confirm) . Many persons whose hearing and abilitites I respect have ALL convereged on the same observation. Too many, IMO to simply discard it. I keep VERY careful records of the placement of my Panels and any and all experiments performed. The TV, which at that time was a conventional 36" CRT improved dramatically, as well. ALL the little 'white flecks' simply disappeared from the screen. With NO signal, the screen was BLACK without ANY visual artifacts.
Believe me when I say that I'm NOT a big fan of break in. I suspect MOST long term effects can be ascribed to the LISTENER getting used to the sound, rather than huge changes in the sound itself. At least after a few hours. Maybe 20 or 30 in some cases. Likewise, those who think cables break in may simply be either WANTING to hear (expectation bias) or perhaps there really ARE some subtle differences. I'd keep to the fundamentals of Resistance, Capactiance and Inductance to START than worry about the minutia of construction and specific insulation. At least one guy I know HATES tinned wires in his power cords. Go Figger.
I'm approaching having the time to build a PLLXO (passive line level crossover) for between my pre and my PAIR of A23s. I can pretty much duplicate the transfer function of the current stock crossover while gaining what SHOULD be as much as 3db of additional headroom.
When Carver was doing the Sunfire stuff, he used a LOT of parts from the company I worked for. Bob was a big fan of International Rectifier HEXFET devices as OUTPUTs for his amps.
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Post by 405x5 on Mar 28, 2015 10:33:09 GMT -5
"MOST amps with conventional power suppliess are restrained in some fashion BY the power conditioner." "the power conditioner when hooked up for the FIRST TIME produced such a dramatic result that I had to Realign the speakers." "Image was improved. Background was 'blacker'. (pop ears to confirm)" "I suspect MOST long term effects can be ascribed to the LISTENER getting used to the sound, rather than huge changes in the sound itself." Power conditioners are very useful, and in many cases, a necessity (like living in Florida) for the best plug-in protection. Equally important, would be under voltage protection, particularly in the case of amplifiers. Those units especially that will shut down equipment when a substantial under voltage is detected are the ones to get.
Claims about DRAMATIC audible changes are total absurdity and complete nonsense. But always good for a laugh.
Popping those ears again might help.
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Post by leonski on Mar 28, 2015 11:19:58 GMT -5
When I purchased the Power conditioner it was with NO expectations. None. I had not been part of ANY discussions, chats, arguments or swapping info concerning ANY changes to expect. I wanted equipment protection and also wanted the ISOLATION transformer for low power stuff. It caught me, if not quite off-guard, than certainly pleasantly. The Change for the better was apparent the INSTANT I put on some music I knew. That my TV, which was a conventional CRT model of 36" cleared up dramatically and LOST virtually ALL the little white flecks and had much better blacks was icing on the cake. And Yes, my Panamax not only has OVER and UNDER voltage protection, but all my low current stuff is connected thru the 400va isolation transformer.
If I were a nasty type, this is where I'd insert comments about your lack of hearing ability or a 'non-resolving' system, but I know NEITHER to be true. And frankly, I find it odd to be on this side of the discussion. BUT, I heard-what-I-heard and no going back. I did get audible improvements and enough difference that I had to change toe angle on my panels. TV was from a darker background NO QUESTION about THAT. And Yes, the only, or MAIN reason which I've seen discussed for power conditioners and amps not getting along is the possibility of current limiting. This makes sense, at least on the face of it.
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Post by 405x5 on Mar 28, 2015 13:58:13 GMT -5
"Image was improved. Background was 'blacker'. (pop ears to confirm)"
"If I were a nasty type, this is where I'd insert comments about your lack of hearing ability or a 'non-resolving' system, but I know NEITHER to be true. And frankly, I find it odd to be on this side of the discussion. BUT, I heard-what-I-heard and no going back."
I respect the fact that we are having a "healthy" debate and just keeping it that way! (No insults at all intended)
You did say you needed to pop your ears in order to confirm what difference you feel you heard. Indeed if your hearing is inconsistent, it could go towards explaining the difference with and without your conditioner.
Try it without the conditioner and see if you need to move your panels again.
Cheers!
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Post by leonski on Mar 28, 2015 17:18:50 GMT -5
My setup is WAY different than back 'than'. first of all, the Panasonic CRT set is gone. Replaced by a 60" Sony SXRD which was replaced by a 50" Panasonic Plasma. The Carver Cube is GONE, too. That amp was replaced by a Rotel RB1070 which was insufficient power for my Panels. The speakers WERE Magnepan MG-1 from the late 70s. They were replaced by Magnepan 1.6 which caused a setup crisis lasting for about a year. I had by THAT time decided the Rotel didn't have enough power and got rid of it AND the NAD1700 Tuner/Preamp which I loved, but went with a space saving Integrated from PSAudio. The GCC250 was 500x2 into the 4 ohm panels. The ROTEL hated the power conditioner and the PSAudio, with a SwitchModePS was 'ok' with it. I eventually had a new 20 line dropped for the amp ONLY and they gave a SLIGHT help to the dynamics. I finally decided I didn't like the 'd' amp and after saving for about a year, went with a PAIR of Parasound A23 and the P5 preamp. Each speaker has its OWN amp, NOT BRIDGED but rather biamped to the panel. The amps are diret to the dedicated circuit which has a PSAudio Soloist outlet and the everthing else is thru the power conditioner. The SUB, which was added AFTER the change to the MG1.6s WAS plugged into the exclusive outlet, but now is happy with the hi-power outlet on the Panamax. I suspect that (but cannot PROVE) that SMPS are more happy with power conditioner 'juice'. Confused? There is some overlap with above sequence, but essentially that's IT. ABOUT EAR POPPING: Have you ever been in a REAL quiet space? Like near-anachoic? I've been in a very well done mom+pop RECORDING studio. As acoustically dead a space as ever I've been in. You could hardly hear the person you were standing BACK-TO-BACK with speak. That is the direction the sensation headed when I put in the power conditioner for the first time. I couldn't tell you WHY, because I didn't think I had a 'problem'. BUT, the audio background got BLACKER….that's the only way I can describe it. And the sound was better enough that after some (minor) speaker position adjustments, it was VERY satisflying and certainly improved.
I went thru setup HELL with the MG1.6s and took a long time to settle. I tried tweeters IN. Than OUT. Than pole piece FORWARD than BACK. Some setups lasted 60 seconds. Some lasted HOURS. As I converged on the best setup, I'd leave things alone for sometimes WEEKS. Original Magnepan speakers were POLE PIECE TO the listener. Sometime in the 90s, they swapped and put the pole piece to the other side and you listened directly to the MYLAR side. I experimented BOTH ways. That, since I liked the MG-1 which were both marked left/right AND when the connectors were in the rear, had the pole piece Facing the Listener. Since there is a 1st order HP crossover and a 2nd order LP crossover, the signal TO the drivers is displaced 90 degrees. The drivers are wired OUT OF PHASE at the factory. I settle on tweeters IN with the orientation being pole piece BACK. This is were imaging is most stable and WIDEST while there being NO center gap or 'fill' problem at all. When I first went to that setup, I KNEW and it was than a matter of adjusting TOE ANGLE and spacing FROM the wall. That took another couple weeks.
I sort of wish I COULD go back, but as you can read, that is pretty much impossible.
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Post by 405x5 on Mar 28, 2015 17:42:31 GMT -5
"That, since I liked the MG-1 which were both marked left/right AND when the connectors were in the rear, had the pole piece Facing the Listener. Since there is a 1st order HP crossover and a 2nd order LP crossover, the signal TO the drivers is displaced 90 degrees. The drivers are wired OUT OF PHASE at the factory." . Yes......out of phase wiring BY DESIGN on some loudspeakers. Often done to greater diffuse material from surround sound channels in HT application.
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Post by leonski on Mar 28, 2015 19:52:49 GMT -5
Of course. A 1st / 3rd order crossover may produce a HUGE bump in 'in phase' response AT / NEAR the crossover. They are 180degrees apart. The trick is to get 'em to SUM FLAT thru the crossover 'region'. The 90 degree phase difference of my panels is expressed as ONE part of the panel being slightly AHEAD of the other (time alignment, if you will) and the response 'lobe' will ALSO be biased in one direction, not straight ahead. The trick is to do your setup with that in mind or rather EAR. Don't forget that my panels are essentially a line-source speaker. with the associated plusses and minuses.
I have a very large sweetspot for panels by crossing them BEHIND me and taking the above into account. Standing maybe 6' behind the seated position, where the speakers cross, results in razor sharp image which to me, is not as engaging.
I have a couple buddies with simulation software who have ALSO measured LOTS of panels. I think, based on our conversations, that it would be a dead end, for me to attempt big changes in Magnepan's crossover design were I to go to a LINE LEVEL crossover. I'd try to maintain the 6db/12db slopes and the 600hz crossover. The 'knee' of each crossover is above / below the crossover frequency, of course.
Don't get me started on the FIRST 10 hours or so of ownership of the 1.6s which had quite a number of audible glitches I associate with capacitor forming. These glitches have NEVER returned.
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Post by vcautokid on Mar 28, 2015 20:57:48 GMT -5
I'll keep this simple, and sweet. The amp doesn't need breaking in. It is really us. We humans need to get mentally acclimated to the new amp or whatever electronic. Unlike a speaker, or Subwoofer that is mechanical too, it does want be run in.
Just never believed in the electronics break in tonic. So save the Gin, this idea is one personally I don't do. Solid State is ready when you are. No really it is. No break in necessary. Enjoy now.
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Post by luvtubes on Mar 28, 2015 21:13:58 GMT -5
I'll keep this simple, and sweet. The amp doesn't need breaking in. It is really us. We humans need to get mentally acclimated to the new amp or whatever electronic. Unlike a speaker, or Subwoofer that is mechanical too, it does want be run in. Just never believed in the electronics break in tonic. So save the Gin, this idea is one personally I don't do. Solid State is ready when you are. No really it is. No break in necessary. Enjoy now. Not only is the phenomenon very real, I can demonstrate it with my gear quite easily. If you live in So Cal and can commit a day to the test, bring your favorite music. You can experience my Pass X1 from being absolutely stone cold, and after a 5 to 6 hour break from listening to anything at all, we will go back in the room and play the same song again... if you cannot hear a difference, I would be completely shocked.
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Post by ocezam on Mar 28, 2015 22:43:32 GMT -5
When I purchased the Power conditioner it was with NO expectations. None. I had not been part of ANY discussions, chats, arguments or swapping info concerning ANY changes to expect. I wanted equipment protection and also wanted the ISOLATION transformer for low power stuff. It caught me, if not quite off-guard, than certainly pleasantly. The Change for the better was apparent the INSTANT I put on some music I knew. I experienced the same thing when I first plugged in a conditioner. I didn't do it for better sound. I never thought that would happen. I had a DLP TV that kept burning up expensive bulbs. My repairman said I should try a conditioner. I did. To my surprise the music was suddenly cleaner and fuller. And the TV quit burning up bulbs. YMMV....
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Post by 405x5 on Mar 28, 2015 23:09:36 GMT -5
"My repairman said I should try a conditioner. I did. To my surprise the music was suddenly cleaner and fuller."
Instead of a conditioner, I tried Tide Laundry Detergent. Not only was my music cleaner and fuller, my discs also had that fresh rainwater smell. Absolutely DELIGHTFUL!!!! also eliminated static on my records! A BONUS!
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Post by 405x5 on Mar 28, 2015 23:11:26 GMT -5
I'll keep this simple, and sweet. The amp doesn't need breaking in. It is really us. We humans need to get mentally acclimated to the new amp or whatever electronic. Unlike a speaker, or Subwoofer that is mechanical too, it does want be run in. Just never believed in the electronics break in tonic. So save the Gin, this idea is one personally I don't do. Solid State is ready when you are. No really it is. No break in necessary. Enjoy now. BRAVO!
Truer words never spoken
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Post by vcautokid on Mar 28, 2015 23:28:54 GMT -5
I'll keep this simple, and sweet. The amp doesn't need breaking in. It is really us. We humans need to get mentally acclimated to the new amp or whatever electronic. Unlike a speaker, or Subwoofer that is mechanical too, it does want be run in. Just never believed in the electronics break in tonic. So save the Gin, this idea is one personally I don't do. Solid State is ready when you are. No really it is. No break in necessary. Enjoy now. Not only is the phenomenon very real, I can demonstrate it with my gear quite easily. If you live in So Cal and can commit a day to the test, bring your favorite music. You can experience my Pass X1 from being absolutely stone cold, and after a 5 to 6 hour break from listening to anything at all, we will go back in the room and play the same song again... if you cannot hear a difference, I would be completely shocked. Hmmm I appreciate the invite, I'll save the airfare, because I am too busy listening to the music. Thanks again though.
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Post by leonski on Mar 29, 2015 0:30:36 GMT -5
Capacitor formation is a Known Phenom. to that extent, ALL elelctronics needs minimal break in. If you don't believe in Cap Formation, try plugging in something with some Big Electrolytic CANS in the PS that has sat for say, a DECADE. ZAP! But bring 'em up on a variac, as numerous techs advocate, to give 'em a chance to reform, and you may yet get a few years out of them.
To the extent that SemiConductors DO wear out, they also have a brief period of breaking in. This is distinct from the temp at which they sound best. Pass and Curl, to name just TWO top designers of SS amps Know this and during voicing, choose parts, values and perhaps amount of heat-sinking, accordingly. Internal noise may actually increase as device temp rises, too. To this end, the receivers used by SETI are cooled with liquid nitrogen. This minimizes internal generated noise from atoms bumping into one another.
I DO agree, however that the LISTENER acclimates to the sound, not that the piece breaks in. I've had this chat on some other forums and gotten TRASHED for my views. I remain unrepentant. Especially those who think in terms of HUNDREDS of hours of break-in. It is very difficult to talk people out of this view. I have NO idea how long someones 'audio' memory is, as distinct from some of the skills that are developed after years of 'critical' listening.
As for Solid State wearing out? I'll nip this in the bud right now and say it is a FACT. A phenom called 'electromigration' effects ALL semiconductors. Even low power logic devices. What happens is as the current travels thru the metal layer, the metal is forced to conform to steps OVER and dips into LOW areas of the device. At each of those bends, the metal gets THINNER. It is VERY difficult to put on a perfectly conformal layer of metal. Where EVER the metal gets thinner, the CURRENT DENSITY goes UP. The metal tends to follow the flow of current. Do this for a LONG time and eventually that thin piece of metal will 'FUSE' and fail. Device dead. During NEW DEVICE qualification, failed parts are gone over VERY thoroughly for FAILURE mode. The burn-in is typically 1000 hours. This is a LONG time in the life of a transistor and may also be called 'accelerated life testing'. Too many failures and it is BACK to the drawing board. So to speak. There are OTHER lifetime limiting factors to SS. For example, contamination during manufacture is VERY bad.
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Post by 405x5 on Mar 29, 2015 8:29:31 GMT -5
BREAK IN and WARM UP are getting mixed up here..........6 hours to warm my system up so it can sound good? Things ARE laid back out on the west coast, as they say!
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Post by luvtubes on Mar 29, 2015 11:40:44 GMT -5
BREAK IN and WARM UP are getting mixed up here..........6 hours to warm my system up so it can sound good? Things ARE laid back out on the west coast, as they say! Pass Labs recommends 24 before any critical listening...
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Post by vcautokid on Mar 29, 2015 11:51:59 GMT -5
I'll let them pay my electricity.
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Post by leonski on Mar 29, 2015 13:57:39 GMT -5
Yeah, 24 hours IS a long time. I'd just listen to whatever I chose. With my PSAudio 'd' amp, it changed a LITTLE for the first hour. tops. But I haven't even bothered to try to check that phenom out with my parasound. And I don't care all that much, either.
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Chris
Minor Hero
Posts: 94
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Post by Chris on Mar 31, 2015 10:22:55 GMT -5
No such thing as "burn in" for solid state circuits. Possibly with tube amps. Someone says otherwise, you point us to ACTUAL engineering documentation that proves it, else its just their "opinion"
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Post by 405x5 on Mar 31, 2015 10:38:26 GMT -5
No such thing as "burn in" for solid state circuits. Possibly with tube amps. Someone says otherwise, you point us to ACTUAL engineering documentation that proves it, else its just their "opinion" Exactly right. Anything that happens in that regard is "bench testing". Burn in, break in, run in, and on and on and on.........what ever the heck you want to call it, it happens AT THE FACTORY before it goes out.
The only time I am concerned about break in, is at my door around midnight.
Gotta love that Samsung 3D set..........I have one also with 4 pair of glasses and a collection of my favorite 3D discs. I have been replacing the factory glasses with "3D Active" brand glasses. They block out light from the sides better for superior daytime viewing if, like myself, you are unable to darken the room.
Bill
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