azsoundman
Minor Hero
2-Channel Freak (2.1 Video)
Posts: 27
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Post by azsoundman on Mar 14, 2011 2:17:06 GMT -5
Sam, I think to refer about "emotional maturity level" is not really relevant to this thread, or any thread for that matter. You're a good man, and I know you can do better. Your true friend, Bob Bob, You know I value your input, and am always grateful for that anytime. However when someone makes a blanket statement without even bothering to ask for the correct information and just makes assumptions and presents them as FACT, well I have to make note of this as nothing more than stubborn child like behavior. Its no different than a 4 year old having a fit because they can't have something their way. Hence, the lack of emotional maturity. I hope that puts my statement in a better context for you. |
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
Posts: 0
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Post by NorthStar on Mar 14, 2011 3:52:01 GMT -5
Sam, I know what you're saying, but if you play their games you're no better yourself!
And when I say something that I believe is smart; it's not only good for him, but for me as well, and everyone else. I think!
For me everyone is equal, and we all deserve some respect, even if we think that the other person is wrong. By respecting everyone we can grow up together and better ourselves.
I believe in that very strongly; that's the way I am, and some of my best allies in life are the ones that I did have friction with in the past. Because if like me they can raise above the unimportant things of life, we all gain from it! ...And we get much stronger.
Sorry for the small off topic, but I believe that once in a while it's appropriate to talk human sociology in our Forums. It helps to make our discussions more beneficial.
There is not one single member here at the Lounge that I think has less value than another one. And even someone like Ntrain still have a place in my heart.
See, before I am an Audio and Cinema lover, I am a People lover.
Just to put you in perspective; look at the Japanese people right now! And put yourself in their shoes! ...With everything gone, even your loved ones!
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Post by stuofsci02 on Mar 14, 2011 7:41:07 GMT -5
azsoundman,
It is not that anybody is making blanket assumptions.
The reality is that many blind tests have been done in the past with lots of people including people who review cables and say things like "a veil was lifted" and "the bass was noticeably fuller". When the blind test is done, the results are no better then someone guessing at random.
So I apologize for being hesitant to just accept what you and Brian are saying.
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Post by briank on Mar 14, 2011 7:53:00 GMT -5
Stu, I wouldn't want you to just believe what me and Bob are saying.(especially Bob, lol). But I do urge people to at least experiment for themselves and reach their own conclusions. To me, that's part of the fun with this hobby. :-)
J/k Bob. :-)
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Post by briank on Mar 14, 2011 7:58:55 GMT -5
PC Guy, it is still your opinion based on your experiences and my experience just gives me a different opinion. We'll just have to agree to disagree. :-)
Regarding my blind testing comment. I was not alone. I would have had trouble hooking up my cables blindfolded. :-)
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Post by stuofsci02 on Mar 14, 2011 10:28:06 GMT -5
Stu, I wouldn't want you to just believe what me and Bob are saying.(especially Bob, lol). But I do urge people to at least experiment for themselves and reach their own conclusions. To me, that's part of the fun with this hobby. :-) J/k Bob. :-) Brian, I agree that everyone needs to decide for themselves. I am certainly not suggesting that what I have found is the what everyone will find. What I am saying is that in general I can pickout differences in components of similar price and other subtle changes. I have never been able to tell a cable (speaker, power or interconnect) from another that was well built. The fact that it jibes with my extensive knowledge of electricity is just the cherry on top.. It is the same arguement with bi-wiring... |
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Post by medoras on Mar 18, 2011 10:07:24 GMT -5
What made your Axiom win the test? If you could pick a winner then you agree that a difference could be heard? Several bottles of Pinot Grigio. The tests were conducted before, during and after consumption of same. ;-) |
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Post by stuofsci02 on Mar 18, 2011 10:19:08 GMT -5
What made your Axiom win the test? If you could pick a winner then you agree that a difference could be heard? Several bottles of Pinot Grigio. The tests were conducted before, during and after consumption of same. ;-) I'll buy that....  |
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Post by jerrin on Mar 18, 2011 21:53:49 GMT -5
Bob, I will not try to talk you out of your opinion, as that would be futile. But please understand this: there is a huge difference between what an individual subjectively thinks makes a difference in their specific sound system, and what differences can be objectively measured and shown to exist that might be applicable to all sound systems. When someone tells me they can hear a difference with some cable or power cord tweak, my reaction is good for you. When someone shows me they can measure a difference, my reaction is hey, that might be good for me. As Henry Kloss once said, "Not everything that can be measured can be heard, but everything that can be heard can be measured." My experience working in an audio testing lab confirms this to my satisfaction. But you should absolutely pursue your bliss and enjoy the ride.  That's true, and I have to agree with you and Bob. I can tell a difference when I use my black sand Z1 power cord and when I do not. Granted, it is not a big difference, but I can hear it, as can my wife and 3 of my friends. However, I have a fairly resolving system. We should not forget that science has not yet been able to explain exactly how and why it is we hear or think we hear what we do. I have spoken to several doctors (M.D and PhD) and all were of the same opinion. "We do not know and cannot definitively explain how/why people perceive sound as they do." "What we do know is that measurements do not tell the whole story." Along this vein, I found the "hypersonic effect" as described by Shoji Yamashiro to be very interesting. I believe a similar line of thinking was behind the extended range of SACD (20 Hz – 50 kHz). |
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Post by joeesp9 on Mar 20, 2011 12:09:38 GMT -5
That's a great post azsoundman. May I quote you if this sort of question crops up on one of the other forums I participate in?
FWIW: Some Kimber Silver Streak was in my system for a while. The lack of shielding and a neighbor with an illegal linear CB amp caused me to change. I've since switched to DH Labs IC's and cables.
Yes, IMO IC's, speaker cables and power cords do make a difference. I have a technical background (B Sc. Elec Eng) so I'm "tech savvy". No I can't explain it. I will however be glad to demo the differences I hear with my system. If you can't hear the difference that's OK we can still listen to some good music while I show off my system. ;D
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 20, 2011 15:11:13 GMT -5
That's a great post azsoundman. May I quote you if this sort of question crops up on one of the other forums I participate in? FWIW: Some Kimber Silver Streak was in my system for a while. The lack of shielding and a neighbor with an illegal linear CB amp caused me to change. I've since switched to DH Labs IC's and cables. Yes, IMO IC's, speaker cables and power cords do make a difference. I have a technical background (B Sc. Elec Eng) so I'm "tech savvy". No I can't explain it. I will however be glad to demo the differences I hear with my system. If you can't hear the difference that's OK we can still listen to some good music while I show off my system. ;D That's a great answer. |
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Post by thepcguy on Mar 20, 2011 15:23:24 GMT -5
That's a great post azsoundman. May I quote you if this sort of question crops up on one of the other forums I participate in? FWIW: Some Kimber Silver Streak was in my system for a while. The lack of shielding and a neighbor with an illegal linear CB amp caused me to change. I've since switched to DH Labs IC's and cables. Yes, IMO IC's, speaker cables and power cords do make a difference. I have a technical background (B Sc. Elec Eng) so I'm "tech savvy". No I can't explain it. I will however be glad to demo the differences I hear with my system. If you can't hear the difference that's OK we can still listen to some good music while I show off my system. ;D Whatever. I still don't believe ANYBODY can hear a difference. It's all in the mind. NOBODY has proven hearing a difference. How will you demo the differences? You haven't posted your location. Maybe someone will take your 'invitation' for a demo. Would you be willing to do BLIND testing? |
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flyhigh
Emo VIPs 
North Carolina
Posts: 524
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Post by flyhigh on Mar 20, 2011 21:58:59 GMT -5
I might go along with this to some degree. AC power is often noisy, and it seems entirely plausible that any attempt to keep hash and trash out of your audio components is worthwhile. A $5000 power cable addresses 4-5feet of the problem, but there's still miles of power lines out there with cruddy connections picking up all sorts of garbage. There are some very nice AC power filters (Belkin, etc) that do a remarkable job for a surprisingly low price. You get surge suppression in addition to filtration. As a bonus, you can plug multiple components into one of these rigs. Every component benefits. And they work! I won't rhapsodize over how the blacks were blacker, and the soundstage exploded....that wouldn't be factual, but that silly $100 Belkin got rid of the nasty pops every time the refrigerator kicked off...and it's a NICE component too. I have the bottom-model PF-30), and it's built like a tank, but apparently not to a price point. It's a robust bugger. I'm generally a careful listener, and I did not hear HUGE differences, but I did hear fewer intrusions from external influences. I thought that made the Belkin a worthwhile purchase. My feeling is that a well designed filter will be vastly more effective (and vastly cheaper) than an artificially expensive AC cord wrapped in Techflex. I could be wrong. Has anyone compared one of these units to their mega-AC cable? Might be interesting. |
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Post by geebo on Mar 20, 2011 22:04:21 GMT -5
That's a great post azsoundman. May I quote you if this sort of question crops up on one of the other forums I participate in? FWIW: Some Kimber Silver Streak was in my system for a while. The lack of shielding and a neighbor with an illegal linear CB amp caused me to change. I've since switched to DH Labs IC's and cables. Yes, IMO IC's, speaker cables and power cords do make a difference. I have a technical background (B Sc. Elec Eng) so I'm "tech savvy". No I can't explain it. I will however be glad to demo the differences I hear with my system. If you can't hear the difference that's OK we can still listen to some good music while I show off my system. ;D Whatever. I still don't believe ANYBODY can hear a difference. It's all in the mind. NOBODY has proven hearing a difference. How will you demo the differences? You haven't posted your location. Maybe someone will take your 'invitation' for a demo. Would you be willing to do BLIND testing? I would love to see someone pass a double blind test on this. Passing means getting it right consistently 3 out of 4 times IMO. But it sounds like some could pick the right one 100% of the time. |
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Post by briank on Mar 20, 2011 22:16:35 GMT -5
I've got two Pangea power cords coming this week so I'll have to do some testing next weekend. I don't expect to hear a difference but gotta try it and see for myself. If I don't hear a difference they will at least look cool. :-)
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flyhigh
Emo VIPs
North Carolina
Posts: 524
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Post by flyhigh on Mar 20, 2011 22:52:09 GMT -5
Why hasn't anyone tested these things?? How hard would it be to take a look at the raw AC at the outlet...and then see how it is at the other end of the cable.
Magazines will fall over themselves to find a distortion component at -150db, but blindly accept the claims made by purveyors of obscenely expensive cables. Hmmmmm...
Certainly, it's the unmeasurable effects of the Cryo-molecular rearrangement that allows music to flow more freely...or something like that....
Anything "Cryo'd" sounds better. Right?
I really want to throw a BS flag here....
It's noise man. Get rid of it, then prove it.
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Post by jerrin on Mar 21, 2011 11:01:57 GMT -5
Why hasn't anyone tested these things?? How hard would it be to take a look at the raw AC at the outlet...and then see how it is at the other end of the cable. Magazines will fall over themselves to find a distortion component at -150db, but blindly accept the claims made by purveyors of obscenely expensive cables. Hmmmmm... Certainly, it's the unmeasurable effects of the Cryo-molecular rearrangement that allows music to flow more freely...or something like that.... Anything "Cryo'd" sounds better. Right? I really want to throw a BS flag here.... It's noise man. Get rid of it, then prove it. I think a lot of the claims by manufacturers are crap. That said, it is my understanding that we do not know how to measure or quantify everything. Therefore, testing results can only go so far. I do believe that much of SQ can be attributed to cold, hard science. However, we simply do not know everything about the perception of sound yet. Until we do, we can neither prove, nor disprove, other than subjectively, whether certain items actually do improve or worsen the listening experience. |
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DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,491
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Post by DYohn on Mar 21, 2011 11:26:23 GMT -5
However, we simply do not know everything about the perception of sound yet. Until we do, we can neither prove, nor disprove, other than subjectively, whether certain items actually do improve or worsen the listening experience. Actually we do know pretty much everything about sound. Sound production, reproduction, transmission and perception is well-established science. Everything that can be heard can be measured. What we don't (and maybe can never) fully understand however is how each individual brain interprets the sound information. Science is very good at measuring and controlling every aspect of what makes sound. We all "hear" the same way. But every brain is different and no two people interpret in exactly the same ways. |
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Post by moodyman on Mar 21, 2011 12:41:22 GMT -5
However, I have a fairly resolving system. Ugh!....Straight out of the audio salesman manual. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that line or a variation of it. But the basic premise is this: The reason you can't hear the difference between your stock power cord and the $500 cord I'm trying to sell you is because your system isn't good enough. |
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Post by thepcguy on Mar 21, 2011 13:16:31 GMT -5
However, we simply do not know everything about the perception of sound yet. Until we do, we can neither prove, nor disprove, other than subjectively, whether certain items actually do improve or worsen the listening experience. Actually we do know pretty much everything about sound. Sound production, reproduction, transmission and perception is well-established science. Everything that can be heard can be measured. What we don't (and maybe can never) fully understand however is how each individual brain interprets the sound information. Science is very good at measuring and controlling every aspect of what makes sound. We all "hear" the same way. But every brain is different and no two people interpret in exactly the same ways. BRAIN = BIAS NOBODY is immune to BIAS. We all hear the same way. We only have different taste. |
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